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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:07:54 AM | From my lofty moral perch in Canada, ahem...we are looking at your battle to provide free health care in the states with some shock and amazement. I noticed on threads like the one on health care, that you seem to believe, as a nation, that everything revolves around capitalism and greed.
From our perspective, the astounding attacks by Sarah Palin and other Republicans on Obama's plan wreaks of McCarthyism. Its like the Republicans have no position, no stance and just spend their time sniping. But what strikes me is their use of the word "socialism" as a purjorative term. Health care shouldnt be socialist they cry, and its a damning expression, like calling someone a motherstabber.
What in heaven's name, is your problem? Why isnt a collective of people governing better than giving all the power to corporations and to individual enterprise (ie. market domination)? Why is that word, socialism, so profane to Americans?
You leave your weakest and most vulnerable with no health care, and yet you boast about sending space shuttles back and forth. You have Bill Gates and another of the top 100 richest people in the world, but allow 85 year old women to die of cancer if she doesnt have a health care plan she pays for? How civlized is that? Yes, in Canada we have our anti socialist nutbars too, who want to privatize services. But those are mostly doctors who want to make more money then the provincial health care plan entitles them too. Apparently $200K+ isnt enough to scrape by on for the average specialist. Poor little general practitioners make a paltry $125K per year. In our socialist system, we do abuse our poor little doctors. If socialist health care can provide our doctors with at least $100K per year income, its not THAT bad is it?
And then I see the title of the post on Health Care Reform, below, with the OP now decrying your president's attempt to provide socialist health care.
Did a socialist bite you when you were young? Why the hate? Are you really stuck in the arms race of the 1950s? Why does Obama get over 30 death threats a day, while our Prime Minister gets one every few months?
Lets debate the merits of socialism over capitalism with respect to US health care, social assistance and economic policy. I think you will see that what you have sucks and that a socialist leaning policy shift will put your nation back on the map as a civilized place to live.
BTW, I am a duel citizen, with ALL of my extended family living in the US. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:14:40 AM | The United States is too busy being in everybody else's business. Why are we supporting other countries, rather than caring for our own first.
Billions go overseas and we have homeless people on the streets, not enough healthcare to go around, Chicago schools dilapidated, can't give its children quality education. No. Other countries come first. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 7:16:04 AM | Well, I do think part of it does have to do with the conditioning of the Cold War and the idea that communism and socialism being evil ingrained in our psyche.
However, I would suggest that a larger part of the problem is the general distrust that the American public has in regards to government in general. This stems back from before the birth of the country and the Revolutionary War. Having had some of the different tactics that were used against the original colonist by the Monarchy of England, we have generally come to not trust government in general, and have, in general, developed a hatred of a large centralized government, part of the reason the Constitution was designed as it was to make the Federal Government weak, in theory, although not currently in practice.
So when the Federal Government starts arguing for a single-payer or nationalized or universal health care, our psyche automatically goes back to the concept of the mistreatment against the colonist by the Crown and our fear and mistrust of that strong federal government. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 8:31:33 AM | .
Under Capitalism, man exploits man. Under Communism it's exactly the opposite.
The Multi national Corporations branded Communist and fascist as Socialist......
Read the Powell Manifesto........... to the US Chamber of Commerce. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:03:30 AM | While sharing the OP’s concern for the American disdain of socialism, Canadians are in no position to be throwing stones. Twenty years after promising to eliminate child poverty by 2010, the Ontario government recently revised its target. But (after promising to reduce the problem by one quarter over the next five years) it may well be asked how this percentage was chosen. Why not an eighth, a sixteenth, one thirty-second or a sixty-fourth? Moreover, it would seem government is satisfied that 75% of the current number is a perfectly acceptable level of child poverty in one of the world’s richest jurisdictions.
It’s painful to listen as Americans try to forward obviously socialist ideas, while simultaneously declaring their essential opposition to the root evil. But this stems from the demonization of language, which results in the imprinted belief that socialism represents a threat to freedom, the greatest form of which is of course freedom of enterprise. From this perspective (regulating the mega corporation’s ability to exploit the millions of unemployed, thereby impeding the accrual of vast fortunes into ever fewer hands, and advocating for a more equal distribution of wealth) there is merit in such an objection. Devoted to the fallacious belief that capitalism is a natural extension of evolution, they subscribe to a gladiatorial theory of existence that celebrates the survival of the fittest (the most ruthless and brutal) confirming the understanding that might is right.
Underpinning this philosophical aversion is a complete inability to distinguish between the intent of political ideologies and the perversions of them that result from practical implementation. Thusly, Stalin’s reign of terror is considered typical of a godless Communist, and GW Bush can be represented as a good Christian. Immune to objective analysis, these unassailable determinations don’t acknowledge that the system of social organization advocated by an impoverished Galilean carpenter most closely resemble those of Mr. Marx, or (constantly advocating for foreign war) the Texas oilman demonstrates nothing but contempt for the Christian commandment, “Thou shall not kill.” Still clinging to Reverend Beecher’s assertion that, “God intended the great to be great and the little to be little,” there’s no room for human collectivity in the modern economy. Therefore, “Whether the elderly widow across town has enough to eat is a question that must be driven from our minds.”(NC) Nevertheless, “One of the noblest, and eventually perhaps too one of the more workable expressions of the ideal equality is embodied in the communist principal, From each according to his abilities – to each according to his needs.” (Philip Wheelwright) | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:29:53 AM | Because socialism isn't a good thing.
------------------------------------------------
Neither is fascism - but you had that in a quasi state for the last 8 years.
Funny thing is in nearly all other western democracies the Dems would be a mild conservative party | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:36:11 AM |
What in heaven's name, is your problem?
I don't have a problem. You're the one that started the thread.
Why isnt a collective of people governing better than giving all the power to corporations and to individual enterprise (ie. market domination)?
Because theoretically a collective is only as strong as it's weakest link.
Because collectives don't generally have adequate checks and balances in place for self control.
Because the bigger the collective, the more bureaucracy, and the longer it takes to come to a decision.
The bigger the collective the less value a persons personal stake in a community is worth.
Because theoretically corporations and individual enterprise are still run by individual people. Not nameless faceless entities with no stake in their local community.
Nothing wrong with a collective of people governing...when it's local. Hence state power and rights.
The bigger the collective the more the local needs are ignored for the larger collectives wants (i.e. old debate about the releasing of wolves in Montana).
Ultimately the individual is ignored.
Why is that word, socialism, so profane to Americans?
Because it ultimately denies the ability to fulfill self interest without permission from someone or something that has no real ability to accurately measure it.
Because for so long the focus has/had been on individual rights over group rights.
If socialist health care can provide our doctors with at least $100K per year income, its not THAT bad is it?
The U.S. isn't Canada.
Why does someone else get to tell me how I have to measure success, when all my life I am told I am personally responsible for it?
Or how much my life is worth without any real legal recourse to correct the view, when all my life I am told I need to stand up for myself and be responsible for setting my own value?
Why should we start that now when for so long that has been what most people were trying to get away from?
Did a socialist bite you when you were young? Why the hate?
No. I bit a couple of girls when I was 8 though.
And all the hate because so many of the arguments are so bad and seemingly retarded (in comparison to the culture and history of this country), and it is highly frustrating that so many people can't understand what seem to be simple concepts. Or identifying one problem at a time to debate on. Hence people get really angry due to frustration. Some people get angry due to fear.
Are you really stuck in the arms race of the 1950s?
Not really. Most people (I've read or talked to) believe we won that. Usually when we lose something we can't move on from it in order to look for things to show why it's not our fault we lost.
Why does Obama get over 30 death threats a day, while our Prime Minister gets one every few months?
Because Obama isn't your P.M. And we aren't Canada. See what I mean about simple concepts? You're comparing apples to oranges.
I read on the net Bush got 3000 death threats. How about George Washington? Jimmy Carter? John F. Kennedy? I know he got at least 1. I wonder how many death threats Bush gets now? I can't find that number.
Lets debate the merits of socialism over capitalism with respect to US health care, social assistance and economic policy.
That's not really possible. Because we don't have a capitalistic system now. It's the slow change, that is speeding up, towards socialism (some argue that it's already socialist we are just continuing to go past it) that is the problem. It started several decades ago and it's just being exacerbated without ever really going back to capitalistic ideals or routes, even though politicians keep promising to do so.
So the debate would have to entail capitalism vs current U.S. socialist governmental trends, that are also utilizing other systems, changing the face of capitalism (and whether or not the U.S. is actually still capitalist) vs socialism. Exemplified by the current proposed changes to the health insurance industry, social assistance programs, economic policy, and general economic culture.
With so many variables and different topics in that debate, it would pretty much be impossible to stay on one topic keeping misunderstanding and miscommunication to a minimum, wouldn't it?
I know I am not smart enough to have a debate that big.
I think you will see that what you have sucks and that a socialist leaning policy shift will put your nation back on the map as a civilized place to live.
And I think that you will see that being a dual citizen gives you a biased opinion based on your own self interest. That every system has it's positive and negatives. That going perpendicular to the governing laws in one term isn't that smart of an idea.
That our nation is still on a map as a civilized place to live. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:42:04 AM |
Under Capitalism, man exploits man. Under Communism it's exactly the opposite.
You mean under Communism, woman exploits woman? Sorry - couldn't resist.
So...Ccommunists don't exploit their people? Interesting view. I consider lying to a population in order to get them to do your bidding, to be a pervasive form of exploitation. So is media censorship and other filtering of information.
Which countries have successfully implemented communism that has lasted, say - at least 75-100 years, and where the average citizen is not at the borderline of poverty not just at old age, but across the span of life? How innovative are those countries as far as contributing useful ideas and products to the world?
What country are all the pro-American Socialism / Progressive crowd trying to emulate? If I wanted to live in some other country, under some other form of government, I'd have moved long ago. Wouldn't it just be easier if they did that? | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:46:25 AM | From my lofty moral perch in Canada, ahem...we are looking at your battle to provide free health care in the states with some shock and amazement. I noticed on threads like the one on health care, that you seem to believe, as a nation, that everything revolves around capitalism and greed.
From our perspective, the astounding attacks by Sarah Palin and other Republicans on Obama's plan wreaks of McCarthyism. Its like the Republicans have no position, no stance and just spend their time sniping. But what strikes me is their use of the word "socialism" as a purjorative term. Health care shouldnt be socialist they cry, and its a damning expression, like calling someone a motherstabber.
Looking from the same perspective.
The term socialist has been used by the media to create fear, because it is a war, a war of information / misinformation. He said this, she said that, etc.....
This is the best reality shows on TV right now.
On one side you have people that want to help the majority of other people with a better way of living and health care.
On the other side you ave people that want to protect what they have built because if they lose there are billion at stake.
That is why you should always questions the ones that yell the loudest because they are usually the ones with something to hide. (looking at you Faux News) | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:49:03 AM | OP, 1) because of the nature of the country's history, and the individualistic 'frontier'-type mentality mixed with deep distrust of centralized gov't, that still exists in many parts of the country.
2) years of social conditioning and propaganda throughout the last century against anything labeled as remotely socialist (even though communism as it existed in the old Eastern Bloc, etc, really turned out to be more like the fascist dictatorship / police state , only loosely based on real socialist principles -- true communism has never been achieved, nor arguably can it ever be given human nature). Also many average Americans don't realize that there are very real and key differences between communism and socialism or social-democracy (or democratic socialism).
And yes, the American Democratic party is primarily composed of centrists or only very slightly left-of-center types (including Obama). In Europe it would be a mildly conservative party, true. With a few notable exceptions, eg, Dennis Kucinich (who really is more like a social-democrat), or Bernie Sanders who is officially an Independent (and I believe is allied with the Democratic Socialists of America) but naturally usually votes in line with the Dem Party on most social issues. Many Dems are almost totally in the pockets however of big corporations and lobbyists of various types. I would only give the latter two that I named as two (probable) exceptions to that rule, and again neither of them are truly mainstream Democrats IMO.
Until the two-party-only system (or at least de facto two-party-only system) ceases to be the law of the land here, and true third (and fourth, etc) parties are really 'allowed' into the process (something which could probably only come about with the abolition of the antiquated and unnecessary 'electoral college' system as well) , you will only ever see two sides of the same coin running America (occasional skin tone differences notwithstanding....). | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 10:52:50 AM |
So...Ccommunists don't exploit their people? Interesting view.
Maybe if i restate you will understand.................
Under Capitalism, man exploits man. Under Communism it's exactly the opposite.
OR
Under Communism, man exploits man..................... The opposite of Capitalism...............
There have never been any communist countries........
Socialism BAD ....
D!ck Armey said so.... Freedomworks want to end Medicare and Social Security... | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 11:37:14 AM | I keep seeing references to the media brainwashing the public into being anti-socialist.
Also through this and similar threads, constant references to conservative talk shows.
Nobody really needs those to realize that there are some fundamental changes being made or attempted to the core of this country and not for the better, in the opinion of many. In most cases, it's without any public input whatsoever, or in the face of it, regardless. I don't want nor need government to tell me when and what to eat, when to wake up or go to sleep, what I should spend my time pursuing, etc. Nor do I need to be supporting people who essentially contribute nothing to the society around them except for losses.
Currently we have a government that is intent on usurping control of banking, big business (as well as small business), health care, education, and most other major components of life, while obscenely rewarding those who are complicit with their unstated big plans. This was the complaint under the Bush administration by liberals, but what's the difference under Obama's administration? It's just different organizations and businesses that are being set up to receive the plunder.
The latest is that by 2010, you will only be able to get government-guaranteed student loans directly from the government. That may sound good, but it's not. They promise on the one hand it will open up more funds to be used for Pell Grants, etc. On the other hand, only about half of any realized savings will be used for that. The other half will disappear into the mire of government overspending, routed completely away from education altogether. All those in the private sector currently making their living from this will lose those jobs. Where will the money come from that would have been provided by private investors? Why - they'll just crank up the printing presses to drive down the value of all other money already out there.
I can certainly envision the government doing exactly the same thing with government-guaranteed home mortgages which now make up 60% of the housing market. Where are all of these people then supposed to go to work?
What enterprises has government embarked on that were actually successful without megatively impacting other areas? What programs does government run currently that are running exactly as planned, with the desired POSITIVE effect? The problem with centralizing everything is that it (government) does so from a single point of view and ignores all others - including superior ones. Exactly as we've seen time and again in other failed communist / socialist / fascist or other "-IST" countries that believe in cradle-to-grave control. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 11:48:12 AM | | I don't know about Americans but I know why I'm against socialism. It isn't because there's something wrong with the idea exactly (there isn't) The problem is that socialism just doesn't work as promised. In the end it seems to work no better or worse than any other reasonably well-managed system except for the excessive bureaucracy. Since that's the case I don't see why removing private enterprise from any field is a good idea. Whatever else can be said about capitalism , one has to admit that it has facilitated progress through the profit motive which was exactly what Adam Smith figured it would do. You just don't get that with collectivism of any kind when it's administered by a bloated bureaucracy. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 12:41:46 PM | I have lived in Canada, and have relatives there that I visit often, and I like Canada,but
sometimes Canadians air of superiority towards Americans is hard to swallow.I liken it to being a kid from a tough neighborhood visiting his sheltered and soft cousin.
All you have to do is look at a map and the comparative population demographics
to see why comparing Canada to the United States is a more than a bit ridiculous.Its like comparing Mexico to Pitcairn island. It is a non-sequitor,and disengenuous. The US has a very different history, a much larger population, and has to face economic, cultural,social,military and geopolitical realities that Candadians simply dont have to. Canada has a relatively tiny, homogeneous Caucasian population, and has, and does enjoy the unique position of being sheltered and protected by the most powerful country in history. Canadian has benefitted enormously, financially and otherwise from the US having to take the brunt and burden of facing and defeating the threats to Western Civilization over the last 100 years including, the Axis powers, global communism, and now Islamic primativism and barbarity.
One factor of primary consideration in the US is the huge population of illegals that are a net drain on the socio-economic infrastructure. My state California, has been economicaly destroyed by the medical, educational, and penal costs associated with a mostly uneducated, primative third world population. We also have a large and intractable , net-drain , a mostly negro and hispanic criminal underclass mired in generational cycles of poverty and criminality, the results of which also profoundly affect the costs and dynamics of medical care.
Might I suggest to our Canadian neighbors that step into our shoes and deal with
and experience some American realities before offering smug and condescending adivce. A good start would be to take the tens of millons of illegals, and our huge criminal underclass for awhile and see how long the Canadian Socialiast nirvana lasts. Consider it a partial reimbursement for the trillons of dollars and sea of blood spent defeating the Soviets. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 12:48:23 PM | Why do American hate socialism? ~ I don't know that they do!
I do however believe they fear it ~ having seen the results of socialism taken to extremes in Russia and several other nations around the world.
The Socialism experiment is over and now dead, save for a few remaining hold out, Cuba and North Korea mainly. Perhaps there is more then , that I'm not aware of.
But like Capitalism, in it's most pure form ~ it just wouldn't work and turns into something dark and ugly over a prolonged period of time.
Why many sing the praises of Capitalism this day, I really don't know, ~ for we use and incoroperated socialism into many areas of government, social lives and the work place.
So the hate is really not there ~ but perhaps the fear of socialism growing out of control "is"!
Socialism is a doubled edge blade ~ it can cut you more the one one.
Our Income Tax System is a form of Socialism. ~ It punishes each of us for our personal gains ~ and you "might" say it "rewards" those that failed to contribute.
Some sense of " fairness" is attempted by using a sliding scale. ~ Rules of law are in place to do be worked and manipulated with by those that gains exceed much lager amounts.
Every citizen that reaches the age to be employed or pursue private enterprise is exposed to this.
I guess you might consider Gingus Kong an adventures capitalist, willing to risk uncertainty and personal safety and comforts, investing in horses, manpower and weaponry, expecting huge returns.
Like every system, Capitalism is flawed in many ways ~ they are too numberous to list, but I name just some.
First we have a number ~ an amount of money that must be spent for you to even exist!
You havn't make a nickle until you exceed this amount. ~ What is this number?
well, I guess it's debatable ~ but it can be estimated ~ 800 per month and you can live under a bridge in a cardboad box. Feed yourself and keep cloths on your back and live.
There's no wife or children or doctors and if other's don't steal it from you ~ you might be able to save ~ 10 dollars a month.
Now if you up that amount to $1500.00 a month and don't take on any responsibilities and still live under the bridge ~ you can live rather well during the mild seasons of the year. Maybe save a few hundred dollars a month and chance someone not killing you while you sleep for it.
So we need housing ~ there go $215.00 min. ~ so you are back not saving any money again and living indoors.
So $2000.00 a month or $24,000.00 a year ( here in Texas) and you can live like a Church Rat ~ left to chew on a few song books and what crumbs that fell on the floor Sunday morning. ~ Have a change of cloths and just maybe ~ two pairs of shoes! ~ and "safety" from the elements and any wandering capitalist of opportunities.
So ! there's your number! $24,000. per year ~ and you are afoot with very little money for mass transit. But you are not under the bridge anymore. Food banks, church organization and government social services your only options to your greater needs. Unless someone willing to find you contribution worthy of more money.
We have many people ~ employed with full time jobs that don't make some more then 24 G a year. ~ They pay payroll taxes if they work so to clear 24 G they must make, $2592.00 dollars a year? ~ at 10.00 per hour at 40 a week = $400.00 X 52 weeks = $20, 800.00 ~ People think they are paying you big bucks ~ if they pay you $10.00 and hour here in Texas ~ for tote & fetch ~ picking fruit~ racking leaves ~ pouring concrete, roofing ~ sling hash at a greasy spoon or wearing a paper hat at a fast food place, hopping tables, etc.
So the problems we have are simple one's ~ health care needs to be lower or employers need to pay more. We need mass transit, we need cheaper fuel.
Now for folks ~ bring down 60 G's to 120 G's a years ~ these "basic needs" are far less of a problem. ~ Their houses and cloths much nicer ~ but many of us if w lost 8 paycheck ~ we'd be found under the bridge as well.
So ~ we have embraced a socialistic system to address these human needs among us, with names like Social Security, Medicad and MediCare.
Even insurance ~ really ~ for they place you in a group ~ and your payments contribute to the "group" ~ if this group encounters lager payouts ~ your premiums rise with everyone else's where you used the insurance or not.
Socialism is not something to hate but to understand ~ it is a tool and like any tool it makes things possible yet it can be abused and misused like any other tool.
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 12:57:46 PM |
From my lofty moral perch in Canada, ahem...we are looking at your battle to provide free health care in the states with some shock and amazement. I noticed on threads like the one on health care, that you seem to believe, as a nation, that everything revolves around capitalism and greed.
and that is the problem. That healthcare is NOT free, and it will compromise privacy and freedom a whole lot more than the "Patriot Act" that so many anti-bush/pro Obama people are ragging on right now while in the next breath supporting the Health Bill. Again. If you have not read the health bill, or have not at least looked at the highlites. Please. Do so before ignorance once again asserts itself in a post similar to this one. | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 2:32:07 PM | Yea , I hear the bill contains so disturbing Privacy Issues if you choice to use this national health care system.
Anyone know of this and wish to expand?
Dance | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 2:53:04 PM | If you have a prescription your privacy is gone...
in fact, prescriptions, and all the information on them — including not only the name and dosage of the drug and the name and address of the doctor, but also the patient’s address and Social Security number — are a commodity bought and sold in a murky marketplace, often without the patients’ knowledge or permission.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/business/09privacy.html
The Patriot Act has already give the Fed access to all your records..... | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 3:15:31 PM | Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?...
Dunno... Never gave it much thought... But I did find this card in my wallet today... It says: "Social Security" on it... Not "Capitalist Security"...
Under a different set of circumstances, those nine numbers below my name, 123-45-6789, might have been tattooed on my forearm instead of being sent to me in the mail on a wallet sized card...
So it really doesn't bother me all that much... | |
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| Why are Americans so Anti Socialist?
Posted: 8/16/2009 3:39:24 PM | Not everyone agrees with FDR's Socialist (Social) Security Act of 1935
Most people are not even aware that they are not required to have a Social Security Number.
For futher proof, simply read the following from your wonderful Social Security Admistration...20 CFR 404.1905-legal authority to quit social security
Here are the forms...
IRS Form 4029: Application for Exemption from Social Security and Medicare Taxes and Waiver of Benefits
SSA-521 Withdrawal of Social Security Application | |
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