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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:04:50 PM | We have a situation in our county, I have another thread on here called safety for our children that speaks of the situation.
That thread may get deleted so I pose this question.
If a school required children to walk upto a half a mile to meet the bus.
And then walk upto 1/2 mile home after getting off the bus.
Would the school be considered knowingly endangering a child when making the child get off of the bus and walk down a road with no sidewalk and traffic traaveling the road?
Would the school be commiting child abuse when making the child walk in the rain or cold after geting off the bus?
Would the school be commiting the act of child neglect when putting a child off a a bus without adult supervision?
Really looking for legal advise instead of opinions, but they are welcome. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:18:26 PM | Legally, I don't know that any school is responsible for the method in which a child arrives to school or gets to a designated bus stop although I think the half mile mark is probably about average, i.e. outside that half mile there would be a bus pick-up. Property owners are responsible for maintaining property which would include an easement that is considered city property with expectations of mowing, etc., unless an area is unincorporated.
I have never lived in an unincorporated community, I would suggest you do some research on the internet about other communities having these issues and the regulations and laws that apply in your state, the majority of which are available online.
I would certainly research it but it would make more sense to band together as parents, carpool to the bus stop, speak with whoever owns the property on the corners about parking on someone's yard or rural area. If you want your children to be safe, you must plan for this while you are trying to sway the school system to listen to your concerns and find a better solution.
We start school this coming Monday, if I were in your position I would be talking to parents about how to manage the problem because you realistically aren't going to get what you want before the school year starts and what they are legally obligated to do depends on the laws of the state of GA, any federal laws that would apply, county and school district regulations. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:19:33 PM | How old are these children?
What is the volume / speed of traffic on said road ?
Shouldn't the parents of said child / children be held responsible for not meeting/ making arrangements for their child when they got off the bus? | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:34:51 PM | We have thought about the carpool, but there is 20 kids on this road, and nobody owns a minivan..lol ..go figure that one.
As for an easement, the people at the end of the road make it widerso to have plenty of room to turn around, and also make a driveway of sorts to where the bus could just go all the way around if they wanted to.
As for as parking goes, There is none. Even if the land owner would allow us to, there is a ditch on both side of the road which prevent parking anywhere except in the road.
There is several of us talking to the school or was untill they just said the decision is final.
I have searched the internet for any kind of information I can find about laws or just reccomendations for school buses.
I did find that the decision not to run any road is not supposed to be based only on the length.
The other considerations were,
walking conditions,,which I think would be sidewalks or something to that affect.
road conditions, I think that would be maybe how much traffic of maybe how many potholes were in it..
And satisfactory turning around conditions...of course we all know what that means.
We start here in 2 weeks.. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:36:07 PM | In my town, anyone who lives less than 1.5 miles from school has to pay for the school bus, it is free for everyone else. They figure the children who live less then a mile and a half can walk to school. Of course most people just pay for the bus. Now my child goes to a school where there is no bus for the majority of students, their parents drive them and pick them up. The bus does come to my house, but the bus ride is an hour long, so we drive instead.
It's an hour because of the stops the bus makes, etc., . The school is only a little over 10 minutes away. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:43:31 PM | | OP, contact your state and U.S. representatives, that is one of the things they are there for to give you direction on how to address the issue and what is legally required of any school system in the state and whether any federal laws apply. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:44:31 PM | imo you'd have to demonstrate the school, the bus company or driver had accepted responsibility for the well being of the child from the depature point of your home to their return to the home. I think this is highly unlikely. What you are likely to find imo is the school accepts responsibility for the safety of students only within the immediate grounds of the school, and the bus company accepts responsibility only within the confines of the bus itself (in terms of mechanical maintenance) and the driver accepts only the minimum legally required responsibility which would be any reasonable influence in the safety of the children within his immediate vicinity.
Your argument appears to be one for the PTA relating to community services in your region, for which the school board may or may not be willing to play some direct role. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:49:49 PM |
Shouldn't the parents of said child / children be held responsible for not meeting/ making arrangements for their child when they got off the bus?
I don't know the ages of all of them, but mine are soon to be 6, 7, 9, and 16..
This is not always possible, people have to work to pay bills..
last year my 16 year oldwas on the bus and got off with my children, she watched them untill I got home.
This year that will not be the case, she will not arrive untill 1/2 or 1hour later because of changes in the times school starts this year.
I have to work or go on welfare, I prefer to work. I work for myself and somedays I would be home to get them, but other days I wouldn't.
If I worked a regular job, I couldn't tell my employer I can only work untill 3 oclock because I have to get my kids off the school bus.
Aftercare or a babysitter, some could afford it but, the majority could not.
friends or relatives,,,,,not all people have relatives that live close. Even then try to find a friedn or relative that will tell their employer they cant work because they have to get someone elses kids off the bus..
Now as for me, I am fairly confident I will be able to work something out. Even if it is home schooling them myself.
But there are many families affected by this, some are one parent families and the parent has to work, but can have someone to stay at home waiting on the kids.
Or maybe even a 2 parent home with only one car..one parent works and the other waits on the kids.
Then you have the families that are like my mother,
she lives with my sister and she watches my sisters kids while she isn't at home.
But she is not able to meet the bus, 1 she don't have a car and 2 she has had a stroke and can't walk the half mile to meet the bus.
What are families in that situation suppose to do? | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 8:57:31 PM |
OP, contact your state and U.S. representatives, that is one of the things they are there for to give you direction on how to address the issue and what is legally required of any school system in the state and whether any federal laws apply.
I have tried to do just that.
I have sent emails and made phones calls only to get no response emails and only getting to talk to the sec.
You wouldn't believe the people I have emailed, right up to the commander and chief..lol..
But in response to another poster,
It is my understanding that once a child leaves my home, they are considered to be in the care of the school system untill they are safely back home..And the work safe is a key word here..
But my understanding may also be very wrong also.. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:04:56 PM |
Legally, I don't know that any school is responsible for the method in which a child arrives to school or gets to a designated bus stop This poses another question. Sometime or another while searching for infor on this matter.
I came across something that spoke about a designated bus stop,
I forget exactly what it said, but it did say the stop had to be designated.
Something along the lines that if the bus wasn't picking children up in front of their homes there had to be a designated bus stop.
What would be considered a designated stop?
Just them saying this is the place, or would they have to put up a sign or something, maybe a small building for them to get out of the weather? | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:06:33 PM | Well, it is a tough question and one that really has no "absolutes".
I was a school trustee in a rural school district for six years and we regularly wrestled with this issue.
As a school division, we were told by our lawyers that it was a parent's responsiblity to ensure the child boarded the bus safely but that once one the bus, the responsiblity became the school divisions.
The cost of door to door pick up for rural children is astronomical not to mention time consuming. Parents need to balance the length of time they feel is acceptable for their child to ride a bus coupled with what they feel educational dollars should be spent on.
School divisions, school boards are given only so much money in which to operate and quite frankly parents feel very strongly about "extra fees" including transportation fees.
Also in rural areas, clear sight lines on roads, driveways, etc mean that sometimes buses are unable to stop near a child's home without endangering those children already on the bus.
Your best best would be to contact your school authorities and ask them to show you their transportation policy. Once you clearly understand that policy, then you are always welcome to appeal to your school board.
Remember though that when school boards continue to take on a parenting role, (ensuring your child makes it to the bus stop safely) the issue becomes very muddy when considering children who live in a city or town. What if someone was to abduct the child while walking to school? Is the school board responsible? What if a child is hit by a car while crossing in a cross walk? Is the school board responsible.?
I found parents often have tunnel vision when dealing with this issue. I remember one irate parent telling me that "he was going to sue my pants off, if his child was bitten by a dog, while walking home from the bus stop". I finally told him I wasn't wearing any pants... that finally shut him up. Remember, a parent is a parent for a reason. You do have a job. Schools are there to educate, not parent. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:11:32 PM |
I found parents often have tunnel vision when dealing with this issue. I remember one irate parent telling me that "he was going to sue my pants off, if his child was bitten by a dog, while walking home from the bus stop". I finally told him I wasn't wearing any pants... that finally shut him up. Remember, a parent is a parent for a reason. You do have a job. Schools are there to educate, not parent.
This makes a lot of sense. If a parent isn't available to get the children to and from the bus stop, who is watching them at home before and after school, before they go to the bus in the morning, and after they get off the bus in the afternoon? | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:26:02 PM | Personally, I feel the answer to all these is no....
I believe the school is only responsible for your child once there on the bus...and again once they are off they are no longer liable...
It is the parents responsibility to ensure someone is there to meet the child when they get off and to be there when the child gets on...
This is why I've never allowed my children to ride the bus...the school is only a short distance, even walking distance, from my home...but I personally want to ensure they get there and get home...!! Just my personal take on the issue...!! | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:26:03 PM | KC, you are right there is no absolutes. I spoke with my oldest about it tonight, and I told her, That it isn't the walking I mind. Heck we could all use the exercise.
But it was the dangers of them walking. You mentioned some of my concerns.
Getting hit by a car, strangers grabbing them and even the weather.
I, myself would be willing to work out something with the schools, say like pick them up in the mornings. (it is dark and they shouldn't be walking down a busy street)
And let them walk in the afternoons as long as it wasn't raining or just freezing cold outside.
I'm sure that the parents on these roads, or this road anyways could work out something for children that didn't have parents at home or older siblings at home for a couple hours in the evening.
But to have one parent try to pick up all these children if it were raining would be impossible.
The road I live on has almost 20 kids that will be in school, kinda hard to get that many in a minivan..And they would make up about one quarter of the bus load anyways.
Now that may not be the case on every road.
I'm sure most would have an older student that could walk with the younger ones, but there is going to be some of them that don't.
And even if the parents wanted to work something out the school board has just said no, it is this way and thats final.
I am not asking the school to parent my kids, But I am asking that since the law requires them to attend school and I am require to intrust their safety to the school, that they at least make sure they arrive home safely.
It isn't like we are asking them to change, they have run these roads for years until now.
Oh yea, I like the remark about you not having any pants on. Made me laugh | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:29:21 PM |
This makes a lot of sense. If a parent isn't available to get the children to and from the bus stop, who is watching them at home before and after school, before they go to the bus in the morning, and after they get off the bus in the afternoon?
The answer is in message 8 | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 9:41:07 PM |
The answer is in message 8
looptex1,
I'm sorry. I should have made it more clear that I was speaking in generalities in my post, I wasn't referring to your situation. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 10:20:47 PM | | Just an idea for what it is worth, but if there is over 20 kids walking this street, maybe all the families could come up together and share the price of a small regular charter bus making 2 rides a day. It might not be that expansive, if it is divided amongst 10-15 parents and the contract is full semester? | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/17/2009 11:53:26 PM | | In my town, all grade school children that have to cross a main road get bussed. I do not think there is a half mile stretch here that a child would have to walk to or from a bus stop. If it is in a rual setting the bus stops at every house that the child needs to be bussed from. At the age of middle school, here it is 6th grade, most kids will walk if they live with in a 1 mile radius of that school, as long as they do not have to cross a busy intersection. I think for high school, if the kid has to cross a highway, they will be bussed. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/18/2009 12:47:54 AM | | I think the school is commiting child neglect and child abuse when they are making a child walk in the rain and cold and with it not being a sidewalk and they have to walk in the street with traffic that is not right there should be something you can do what happens if the child gets hit by one of these stupid a** drivers out there then they would want to blame the parent when really its the schools fault so i would say yes it is child neglect and child abuse.. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/18/2009 5:27:17 AM | I think that no matter where you live the dangers exist when you let your child walk to school by himself or to the bus stop.
Animals are everywhere, granted in most cities there isn't any bears or coyotes or anything like that running around, but there are mean vicious dogs who wouldn't hesitate to bite a child. When I was younger and walked to school by myself I got chased by a dog more than once, until I learned to stand up to them. But even standing up to a dog and shooing it away doesn't always work and there are some that would still bite a child regardless.
There are pedophiles and child snatchers everywhere. It is not the school's responsibility to make sure your child gets to and from the bus stop by himself. It is the parents. What is the bus driver supposed to do when he sees a wild bear or stranger attempting to harm your child? Get off the bus, leave the other children unattended, and fight the bear/stranger off himself? I don't think it's a good idea to leave a bunch of school aged children on a bus by themselves.
When my child goes to school if he has to take the bus I will personally make sure that either I or someone I trust walks him to the bus stop, waits with him for the bus, and is there when he gets off the bus to make sure he gets home safely.
Parents nowadays do not realize the dangers of letting your child walk home by himself. I seen a little boy walking home all by himself this past school year. He was alone with no other children around and couldn't have been more than 5 years old. Anyone who wanted to could have very easily snatched him up. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/18/2009 5:42:31 AM | Q: Would the school be commiting the act of child neglect when putting a child off a a bus without adult supervision?
A: No, it is not the schools job to be at the buss stop it is the parents job. My girls school will not let grade K of the buss without some one at the stop for pick-up, if the parent/gardian is not there they are returned to the school. Then the parent has to go to the school to pick them up; if it happens more then once the child is no longer allowed to ride the buss. 1st grade on is allowed to walk home from the stop on their own. If there is a problem it is on the parerent/gardian to make arangments not the government or the school. I remember one case were there was construction and the drive let a student off on the other side of a busy road (not the designated stop) and the student was struck and killed; in that case the school and driver were held accountable. This only happened because it was not the regulare stop. Seems to often parents want the school to do there job for them. If there is a problem parents do not have to have their children ride the buss at all, they can pick them up at the school. The parent should know better then the school if their child can walk to and from the buss stop. My street has sidewalks, but my kids have the smarts to know if there is no sidewalk to walk in the dirt not in the street. If some kids don't the parent not the school should take action. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/18/2009 6:22:32 AM | It's easy to cloud the issue of who is responsible when it comes to schools.
Over the past 50 years, the education system has become more and more of a "parent" to children than ever before in history.
Today, many school divisions need to feed hungry children, find them school supplies, find them winter jackets, teach them about sex education, provide counseling, and at the same time teach your child to read.
Back to the transportation issue, .. most school divisions have a spent a fair amount of time creating their policy about walk distances. Once again, I urge you to further investigate exactly what the policy .
Secondly, it my OWN opinion, it is the parents responsibility to ensure a child reaches their bus or school safely. Personally I laughed when I read that schools are committing child abuse by making a child walk in the rain. At what point did rain become abusive? Try -40 degrees Celsius .. I live in Canada and we regularly closed schools due to extreme weather.
When I lived in a large city of a million people, I lived about 4 blocks from my neighborhood school. At lunch time, there was a line up of cars around the school for miles as parents did not think it was safe for their children to walk to school and chose to drive them. This is a huge problem at almost all schools to which children can walk. Kids don't walk anymore.. not even four blocks. Hence the obesity problem..
If child care is an issue, then arrange for a babysitter to pick your child up at the bus stop, and ensure they get to the stop safely... or as get out of your pajamas, and walk your kid to the bus stop yourself. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/18/2009 7:31:50 AM | First, and most important question I have for you is: Why are you putting the liability onto the school system?
YOU as a PARENT are responsible for making sure your school gets to school. If the school requires your children to walk, they walk (or you take them to scho0l) VERY simple. Secondly, every one of these questions have an answer. . . it just may be one that you do not like. You hit the nail on the head with you statement: "Would the school be commiting the act of child neglect when putting a child off a a bus without adult supervision?" Who would be the adult in this situation? In most cases it would be the parent or someone the parent designates to have supervision of the child. They are liable for making sure YOUR child comes home after he/she gets off the bus.
If the school would be responsible for all you ask for, then essentially your school system would bankrupt itself in liability. There would also be another can of worms that would be opened... is the school liable if your kid fails because he/she is not doing their homework? is it liable if the PARENTS aren't making sure he/she does their homework? Are they liable if your kid rides a bike to the bus stop and breaks his arm in a fall? (never mind the question of the time frame of medical care for the broken arm) . . . and on, and on, and on....
I don't mean to sound like I don't understand your problem, but all of your complaints/observations have solutions. . . . YOU have to plan, organize, and attack the school district. Go to the administration meetings as a group of parents and let them know that as PARENTS, this is unacceptable! But most importantly, have an alternative plan that asks for MORE than you want. As you know, they will negotiate down from there....
Your congressman, if he is like mine, does not care about what does not benefit his re-election. Keep it local, and if you bother this school district enough, they may start to change their ideas of the bussing program.
I wish you luck! May your kids be safe and happy!
just my .02 | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/18/2009 7:49:23 AM | I am in Australia, so obviously can't comment on this specifically. But here, it would be as other posters have speculated - the school is in no way responsible for getting a child to a school bus, nor getting them home when they get off one. Actually, it is rare in Australia in city areas for there to be any sort of transport supplied. Parents and children are 'on their own' until they hit the school gates and as soon as they leave them.
The child is not "made" to do anything by the school. You, as the parent, make the choice to "make" them do this. In Australia, the "well I work" excuse wouldn't cut it and the Govt/education system would not see it as their responsibility to ensure you children get safely to the bus or safely home again.
The vast majority of children would not have a parent who could accompany them without some sort of specific workaround made - ie. a babysitter, a roster where people take turns, finding a parent/carer who is home and could do it (for a fee or some other gratuity), etc, etc.
I would be surprised if it were any different in the US, but I guess it does come down to what the law specifically states is the school's responsibility. | |
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| Ok, here is a question.
Posted: 8/18/2009 10:03:50 AM | See if they don't hold the school resposible in Australia, were dingo's run off with kids all the time on the way home from school, they should not do it in the USA, were there is no dingo problem. Parents just need to put that responsibility on themselfs and not wish for the schools or government to do every thing for them. | |
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