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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 1:37:32 PM | If the world continues long enough: 5000 years from now when English is gone and hasn't been used for 2000 yrs, and scholars try to interpret our language and culture, will they be able to accuratley incompass us as a society?
Imagine reading about a figure in a red suit that flies around the whole world in one day, delivering toys to kids, with a magical list that tells which kids are good and which kids are bad. Are they going to know that Santa Claus was nothing more than a fairy tale, or could they confuse him as a shared belief held by all. Could they actually consider him a god to us and create an elabborate story about how we neanderthals believed in this magical man and that he was a god with powers. Who would be there to defend us, saying NO! thats not it, you got the story all wrong.
What if someone from ancient times were here today, would they feel the same way about Zeus? Hey thats not what we believed, its just a kids story, Of course we all believed in One God, your way off! | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:27:14 PM | The difference between Santa and Zues is that there is an abundance of literature, and books, and written history, stories and such that put Santa in the proper context, in addition to other historical facts.
With Zues, there is actually so little, relatively speaking, compared to Santa Claus, so naturally there would be a difference between the two. 5000 years from now, they will see Zues pretty much the same way we do since Zues is in OUR literature that will be available in 5000 years, and since we are leaving lots of written literature about Santa Claus, they will see him the same way we do.
Merry Christmas!
Paul K | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 2:56:02 PM | Elvis might be a little different. 
It all depends on what surives till then. 5000 years is a long time. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 3:05:29 PM | | In the future as long as a record has been kept all the while, people will have plenty of information to know us by. The difference looking back is that history hasn't been kept very well until recently. The way we narrate our lives today is plenty informative, and so if anyone 5,000 years hence would care to, they would be able to know at least as much about ourselves as we think we do now. It helps that books became popular in the last few hundred years, and ubiquitous in the last century. | |
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Posted: 8/26/2009 4:21:59 PM | Yup....
Someone's going to dig up a book about Elvis, assume that he was ruler of the world (Elvis is King) and society worshipped him as a god-like deity....
Oh wait.... it actually is like that. Just ask my neighbour Joe.
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 4:59:38 PM | Jinglehimmer, yes I've just got back from the pub celebrating my friends birthday.. And yes I'm a little intoxicated :)...
I'd like to flick a peanut at your suggestive train of thought if I may. I see that many people worship a man called jesus... They believe that he was not just a good man. They believe he was the son of God.... Your forward thinking opens up an interesting question (obviously).
What if a newspaper covering the death and journey of David Koresh (the Waco massacre) were to accidentally fall between two sheets of metal and be accidentally buried for thousands of years as the world around forgot and continued on it's self destructive path?... Once the dust had settled, a new civilization may grow and dig like we do.... They may uncover that newspaper and believe that Mr. Koresh was indeed the second coming of an even more ancient man called Christ.
We walk facing backwards into our future, only seeing the mistakes that we have made as those mistakes become apparent in our history.
Edit: it is a sad fact that we coast into our future blindfolded. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 5:09:05 PM |
If the world continues long enough: 5000 years from now when English is gone and hasn't been used for 2000 yrs, and scholars try to interpret our language and culture, will they be able to accuratley incompass us as a society?
Imagine reading about a figure in a red suit that flies around the whole world in one day, delivering toys to kids, with a magical list that tells which kids are good and which kids are bad. Are they going to know that Santa Claus was nothing more than a fairy tale, or could they confuse him as a shared belief held by all. Could they actually consider him a god to us and create an elabborate story about how we neanderthals believed in this magical man and that he was a god with powers. Who would be there to defend us, saying NO! thats not it, you got the story all wrong.
What if someone from ancient times were here today, would they feel the same way about Zeus? Hey thats not what we believed, its just a kids story, Of course we all believed in One God, your way off!
A rather accurate description of the difference between academics such as theology and anthroplogy, and theocracy and religion. Well done!
Most people who study the subject seriously quickly become aware of two things, essentially precisely what you described, and secondly that the people of ancient civilisations had exactly as much common sense as people today, for whatever that's worth.
Just like today, you had your fanatics and some of them were notable individuals, like the politicians of today, not necessarily overly qualified in scholastic disciplines by the contemporary standards, but you also had your genius and intuitive individuals of note, just like today who offer entirely different appreciations of historical perspective.
Did you know whilst calculating the distance from Earth to the Moon ca.8th century BCE some Greeks were also forwarding the heliocentric solar system. Kepler based his work on it, and Copernicus on his.
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 7:01:47 PM | Well, there are various levels of belief in any society. While tribal peoples tend to have a sincere devotion to their deities, there is evidence aplenty in the various Indo-European sprung religions for instance to see that it was known, at least amonst some, that the ultimate reality of the divine is unknowable to men. This is certainly true in the beleifs of the various preChristian Germanic people, as indicated by the Anglo-Saxon word *weoh (Old Norse - ve, Gothic - wih, etc) and various other facets of their belifs that has been preserved, eg. the testimony of the Northumbrian high priest, Coifi, on the eve of his conversion.
This is likely the reason for the great religious tolerance of the elders; as they would not be inclined to say "this is the divine, period" as though the divine can be quantified and easily fit into some little manmade box. Rather, they would be more inclined to say "this is how the divine presents itself to us", with full knoweldge that the divine might express itself differntly to different cultures, each according to the their cultural character.
One of the problem with looking back on modern Western society, as with Imperial Rome, is that there is no common culture. This interpretating various things becomes alot like dream intepretation ... where each book has a different intepretation of the same symbols ... because their is no common culture informing these symbols anymore.
And of course, there is something to be said for participatory observation, which revolutionized the fierld of anthropology ... and prior to which investigations into tribal man and his beliefs always resulted in conclusion thats looked like something from a B horror/adventure movie, totally coloured and distorted by the observers prejudices as he watched from the outside.
As for Santa, he is only a "fairytale" so long as one regards the spirit of generosity as a fairytale ... probably by getting to stuck on the form. I personally do not, and thus still believe in the Jolly ol' Elf from the North. ;)
There is a very fine line. Certainly the ancients of the past didn't apply the same logical reductionism to their religions that we see Christians for instance doing; as though such things are literal verifiable universal matter of fact, like gravity. | |
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Posted: 8/26/2009 8:12:22 PM | | I suppose it is sort of spoiling the party but what's this 'future ' you are all talking about .It's optimistic and that's undoubtedly good bu t standing back and listening , don't forget listening to people , i have become pessimistic about how long our future will be and also the quality in terms of values to be cherished for our future ... after two phone calls , and yes I have the flu so am feeling grumpy , this morning I almost give up ..... the most polite request is thrown back at you because 'Didn't you know it's the last two days of my holiday ' and 'No , we don't do it that way ... it may be more efficient but it must conform to the way we do things '. I believed in Santa Claus till I was 10 ! And I still do . As for Zeus , well I like his hair do but am not much acquainted with him and the part he played in my ancestors' lives . I believe in fairy tales and mythological figures because they are hopeful and happy and wish well for mankind . As for the Germanic myths ... er , some of them are a bit suss but I'm not well acquainted with their origins . Siegfried does leave me a bit unmoved . Wasn't there a comedy series with a character called 'Siegfried ' . But Brunhilde and the Valkyries .. a bit over whelming for my taste . | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/26/2009 8:56:45 PM | Sorry you're not feeling well nevaagin, hope you get well soon 
Siegfried (norse Siguard) is a little on the lines of St George but the moral of Germanic myth is typically complex and favours the antihero over the deific, many remark the Germanic pantheon to be almost unique in their humanity although others like the Greek are also noted for their rather humanlike failings.
The Valkyries were originally battlefield terrors and had names like Shrieking, Horror, etc. Their obviously allegorical personas following the insane and terrifying Odin as he rode the skies above a battle, descending to claim the bodies of the heroic dead.
The personification of the angelic female aspect to the Valkyries is believed to have appeared around the Christianisation period following the 7th Century. During this early mediaeval period the Valkyries transformed from witchlike terrifying creatures into beautiful handmaidens and this is about the time the story of Brynhild was probably added to that of Siegfried (who had become Siguard). Odin (the terrible), Loki (the mischievous), Baldur (the bleeding), Freja (the beautiful) and the Valkyries evolved in the Germanic Rhine region you see, centuries earlier.
The story of Siguard the Dragon Slayer is one of human greed and the chance nature of the deities as well as the nature of magic as representative of human perceptions and various other allegories.
It's about two evil sons who murder their father to acquire a great treasure, then one murders the other and transforms into a dragon to guard it. Siguard is the hero so charismatic he is loved by a Valkyrie, who slays the dragon. Later he is killed under his lover's instruction, Brynhild who had become jealous of another woman. Later she cannot get over her guilt and sense of loss and after a time of weeping at Odin's feet she kills herself. She had originally been a rebellious Valkyrie who Siguard had freed from her magical imprisonment at the hands of Odin, and Siguard had been tricked with magical potions (ie. hallucinagens and poisons), into forgetting about her and remaining with the unremarkable daughter of a witch, who had intended on marrying her impoverished daughter into good stock.
Like most Nordic/Germanic myth it is laced with several emotional undercurrents, prior to Shakespeare they're probably the best and most interesting tales around, inspiring such works as Lord of the Rings. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/27/2009 2:49:54 AM | Nevermind Santa Claus what about McDonalds!, imagine there are as many churches with crosses as there are the golden arches....Couldn't you imagine some future generation teaching about the mythecial temple of the golden arches with the clown god outside of it! | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/27/2009 5:47:22 AM | the moral of Germanic myth is typically complex and favours the antihero over the deific, many remark the Germanic pantheon to be almost unique in their humanity although others like the Greek are also noted for their rather humanlike failings.
Well, don't forget that our most extensive and comprehensive sources of Germanic myth were written and recorded under the aegis of the Church, and so had to passed along in a certain unbecoming manner lest one be labelled a devil worshipper or heretic for writing them.
In contrast to the tales of Snorri Sturluson and Saxo Grammaticus, we have Germanic religious art, in which the deities are depicted as humanlike in form, but only vaguely human. As Germanic artisans were quite capable, restrained only by available resources and not technical skill, we can only presume that the vagueness was intended. This was undoubtedly as a result of a pervasive cultural understanding of the ultimate mystery of the divine and the will that man should refrain from defining them too sharply. This idea gels well with the implicit meaning of the term wihaz and it's various offshoots, ie. seperate, other, mysterious, it's general application to such things of specifically religious significance, eg. altar, idol, and the idea that it was the energy that made things haligaz (holy, whole, healthy) as evidenced in various runic charms.
The idea of halig, from whence we get the terms holy, healthy and whole, is fundamentally a matter of divine power being presented in earthly/temporal form/s.
The celebration of the anti-hero is more of a feature of later Viking Age legend, as social structures were being assailled, the lure of the great wealth of southern Europe was exceedingly strong, and kings were tyrannizing their people in order to force Catholicism upon them. Viking Age literature, and more specifically the Icelandic corpus --Viking Age Iceland having been the Wild West of NW Europe, and thus not a fair representation of Germanic society in general -- is dominated by such figures such as Egil Skallagrimsson, Viga-Glum, and Erik the Red.
Earlier legends celebrate such heroes as King Offa of Old Anglia, Walter of Aquitaine, Beowulf, and Hrolf Kraki and his heroic retainers. And history offers us such prominent figures as Arminius of the Cherusci, Penda of Mercia, Widukind of Eastphalia, and Godfrid of Denmark, each of whom must have enjoyed great renown and had (or could have had in the case of some of the later ones) legends and sagas of their own.
These were all different kinds of heroes than those from the Viking Age, which clove to the age old heroic aesthetic that the Indo-Europerans undoubtedly carried into southern Scnadinavia in the late Stone Age, which was celebrated and cleaved to in the warm and abundant Bronze Age, but which found it's beliefs sharply challnege as a result of the climate change that was in full swing with the opening of the Iron Age.
In the former Age's the raid was as much the national sport of the Germanic peoples as anything. No one was going hungry or suffering any great want during the Bronze Age. In fact, the infant surivial rate quintipled with the opening of the Bronze Age. However, when the climate began to grow colder and more moist, the resources of the land began to shrink, and the various tribes were forced to act, not out of an aesthetic sense of how things (such as war) should be conducted, but out of do-or-die collective necessity.
The Germanic deities, particularly THE deity of heroic conduct (Tiw/TyR/Zio) , did not condemn the folk outright for this, but it is at the same time that we see the beginnings of the practiced of disposing of the bounty of war into the lakes and bogs of the North. No longer could the hero take pride in these traditional tokens of glory, but he could still find glory in the continued surivival of his people ... presumably so long as such heroes kept true to this custom of disposal.
While some acadamics, going off of Conrelius Tacitus' remarks on the custom, insisting that this was done as an offering to the "war-gods", and refer to the bog *sacrifices* of the Bronze Age to back this up, their own back up betrays them. Afterall, the bog sacrifices are characteritically comprised of high quality objects lain into the bog in precise and careful order, with great care. In contrast, the spoils of war was hacked up, kicked in, ripped apart, and broken before being bogged. In this, the spoils of war was treated much more like the worst variety of felon known to the Germanic peoples ... ritually tortured and then bogged as a shameful disgrace.
We see these "treasures" still peaking through the folk conscious in later legends, in the form of the cursed treasures of Beowulf and that of Sigurd's Volsung saga.
What I think is special about Germanic heroic literature is it's ability to celebrate both the deific type hero, AND ALSO the anti-hero. And remember, these legends were often woven in their highest form and made possible under the patronage of Kings ... who we might expect to be all about the loyal hero, which fortified his position as King, but not so keen on the celebration of the anti-hero. But there it is.
Anyway, end of thread hijack. :) | |
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Posted: 8/27/2009 8:21:55 AM | Some interesting thoughts there jmars, which I'd prefer to take in at length (gave me at least one new perspective on something in particular, thank you), but I should point out, which I'm sure you're aware and may have even been alluding to, the Icelandic culture is a very different social organisation to the Norwegian (Norse) one, patron deity is commonly Thor (Norse is commonly Tyr or Odin) and even the rights of landowners is different, there are no chieftains (priestly councils form government) and it is speculated by some anthropologists as an early form of democracy. All Norse/Icelandic culture does do away with serfdom, which is another bonus and there is another common theme in the tradition of according at least one night shelter for travelling strangers which in most cases was a matter of law (presumably due to the harsh climate).
Also Indo-European culture didn't influence evolving Norse afaik, it was the other way around, Slavic mythology mixed with Norse following the period of Viking excursions into Belarus and beyond, though the roots of slavic mythology itself is at least as ancient and probably older, it is certainly far darker in nature. This is evidenced in the Baltic region and most particularly in Denmark. And Finnish mythology played some influence probably later again, but possibly during formative periods (via the North Sea coast, sounds like the adventure of great legends, Jotunheim perhaps).
Earliest Norse mythological roots I've been able to identify is Germanic Rhine region. Where Beowulf and other Danish mythology references earlier than viking times, it is the opinion of some publications they evolved in later times, as evidenced by the influence of classical Norse mythology with direct roots to Germanic, rather than the other way around (ie. it went Germany-Norway-Belarus-Baltic-Denmark-Iceland respectively in timescale, however counter-intuitive that may geographically appear).
The Germanic deities I mentioned in my earlier post appear to be the very oldest, including of any heroic figures. Odin and his less remarkable blood kin, and Freja, Loki, Baldur (which is odd as some equate the bleeding god with Christ, but no, certainly earlier by centuries in the same way Horus the Egyptian child god is also popularly equated with Christ, as is the Celtic Mabon figure) and various giantish figures almost certainly predate any other Scandinavian mythology, appearing represented in finds around the Rhine region dating to a few generations after Celtic settlement. Although there is one exception.
The Norse dwarves actually translate to Germanic elves, which in turn translate to the Celtic faerie, which according to Irish mythology were the original Celtic pantheon/ancestral spirit figures, date to the time of the Romans.
Quite perplexingly Germanic elves remain in modern Norwegian myth stretching back to the vikings of the Christianisation period as half-coporal, magical creatures who exist between two dimensions (invariably midgard and alfheim) occasionally stealing children from farmhouses (an explanation for misfortune most likely). And these are typically regarded distinct from the Norse mythological dwarves, though in historical perspective would be one and the same creature type.
[who said we can't hijack this thread, nobody else is doing anything with it :P] | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/28/2009 6:47:53 AM |
Imagine reading about a figure in a red suit that flies around the whole world in one day, delivering toys to kids, with a magical list that tells which kids are good and which kids are bad. Are they going to know that Santa Claus was nothing more than a fairy tale, or could they confuse him as a shared belief held by all. Could they actually consider him a god to us and create an elabborate story about how we neanderthals believed in this magical man and that he was a god with powers. Who would be there to defend us, saying NO! thats not it, you got the story all wrong. Consider the evidence: there are lots of films that claim Santa is true. There are lots of stores with Santa's Grotto. It's referenced in all the literature of this time. Retailers make 40% of their yearly sales in the Xmas period alone. So if an anthorpologist in the future is going to look at documents, and most would probably be destroyed, he'll find a few red suits, lots of references to Santa, some pictures of Santa, lots of receipts that show how important the time of Santa is to us, a few films that say that Santa is really true, and a bit more. Frankly, I'd be surprised if an anthropologist doesn't say that Xmas is the most important time of the year (it certainly is to businesses), and that since the main figure "around" in our time is Santa, that the most important mythological figure of Western society is Santa Claus. They might even go so far as to say that Santa is an old man because our society is misogynistic, and that he wears a red suit, because it is the colour of blood, showing how Santa was a violent and vicious god, and that our society fought vicious wars in the name of Santa, like World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/28/2009 8:14:13 AM | I totally agree with you scorpio, the possible stories that future generations may conjure are endless.
[I see that many people worship a man called jesus... They believe that he was not just a good man. They believe he was the son of God.... Your forward thinking opens up an interesting question (obviously).
What if a newspaper covering the death and journey of David Koresh (the Waco massacre) were to accidentally fall between two sheets of metal and be accidentally buried for thousands of years as the world around forgot and continued on it's self destructive path?... Once the dust had settled, a new civilization may grow and dig like we do.... They may uncover that newspaper and believe that Mr. Koresh was indeed the second coming of an even more ancient man called Christ.]
This very post deals with Jesus' teachings. Jesus could have went into a cave and written a giant book by himself, telling us the story of God and how we as humans should behave. The problem with this is that future generations would be limitied to their translations of his word. Thats why it was so cruical for Jesus to speak in parables, so that no matter the elapsed time, the moral of the story will always be available to us. Also why Jesus started his church with people, so it could be passed down throughout time. Not just a written word that word lose its meaning. Jesus is in us. As long as humans are here, his teachings can never be silenced.
"You Simon are rock, and on this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall never overcome it" | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/28/2009 2:40:07 PM |
the Icelandic culture is a very different social organisation to the Norwegian (Norse) one, patron deity is commonly Thor (Norse is commonly Tyr or Odin) and even the rights of landowners is different, there are no chieftains (priestly councils form government) and it is speculated by some anthropologists as an early form of democracy. All Norse/Icelandic culture does do away with serfdom
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Iceland did away with any of the basic social ranks of the typical Germanic social hierarchy. Thralls were kept amongst both the Norse and the Icelanders ... though one will note that even on the eve of the Norman Conquest the thrall population of Anglo-Saxon England was only something like 10% of the total population.
As for democracy; it was present in Germanic culture since the first records. Universal sufferage was not a feature of their democracy, but then again, nor was it present in ancient Greece. But Germanic society has always had features of democracy, as far back as Tacitus (1st century CE) and presumably well before.
Also Indo-European culture didn't influence evolving Norse
Well, Norse and general Germanic is an Indo-European sprung culture/language; as is Slavic and Baltic, Celtic, Roman and Greek, etc.
The Germanic deities I mentioned in my earlier post appear to be the very oldest, including of any heroic figures. Odin and his less remarkable blood kin, and Freja, Loki, Baldur (which is odd as some equate the bleeding god with Christ, but no, certainly earlier by centuries in the same way Horus the Egyptian child god is also popularly equated with Christ, as is the Celtic Mabon figure) and various giantish figures almost certainly predate any other Scandinavian mythology, appearing represented in finds around the Rhine region dating to a few generations after Celtic settlement.
I don't think that you could rank Odin for instance as one of the ledest of the Germanic deities; at least not frm an academic pov. The god-name TyR for instance is at least as old, far more widespread, and looms much larger than Odin, and stems frolm the same root as Anglo-Saxon Tiw/Tio/Tiu/Tig, Old High German Ziu/Zio, Gothic Tius, Baltic Dweios (sp?), Latin Jovis, Greek Zeus, Ancient Hittie Sius, Sanskrit Dyaus, etc.
He **seems** next to absent in the Germanic Bronze Age, where the practice of inhumantion and the various symbols found on the rock-carvings of the era and locality, suggest that FreyR and what might (perhaps not very accurately) be called the "Vanir" loomed VERY large. The Vanir seem to be a later, Viking Age, and explicitly North Germanic, ie. Scandinavian, idea, as there is no evidnece such a divine tribe was known to the other Germanic peoples, and the earliest myths we have make Ing (FreyR) and Irmin (Odin) brother and patrons of groupings of Germanic peoples ... with Ingui-FreyR being the patron of all the original tribes living along the seashore, and Odin being the patron of those tribes that settled the interior of the Continent.
Without speculating on the origins of Woden (who does have one Indo-European counterpart, etymological relative in the Indic Vata), his cult seems to have been very minor prior to the Iron Age, and might well have only existed within the context of the cult of Tiw in his role of high judge of the legal assembly ... in which Woden represented in some way shape or form the spirit of the gallows, on which capital offenders were hung. He might well have existed alongside Loki even then, even as the gallows existed alongside the bog as a (distinctly) form of capital punishment for a ditinctly differnt form of capital offender. But the changes that the Iron Age brought to Germanic society clearly brought about a great evolution in our ancestors understanding of this spirit, and with the turning of the Era (BCE to CE), we see the rise of many prominent features of his cult, from the return of the practice of inhumation to the use of the runes to his appearance in the geneologies of various Germanic royal houses. I would say his worship as supreme deity of the pantheon did not cement until the end of the Migration Age; which also happens to be when the bog disposals mentioned in my previous post came to an end.
The way I see things happeneing is that, with the Iron Age, the excess population of the original tribes of Scandinavia -- themselves a unique mixture of indigenous "Old European" and Indo-European migrants -- settled the lands of modern day Germany, where, perhpas through contact with Rome, they began to evovle new ideas and insights of their own the resulted in an evolution of the elder organization of the pantheon. This new understanding in turn travelled back northward and had a great influence. Snorri Sturluson states as much in his preface for the Prose Edda, when he states that Odin came first (from Greece lol) to Germany before making his way to the Scandinavias.
Anyway, we shold probably give this thread back to it's original subject ... whether anyone makes use of it or not. lol I'd be more than happy to go on discussing Germanic belief, but perhaps we should make a new thread for it?
Cheers mate! | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/29/2009 11:28:05 AM | Well........I just could not let this go without inserting my own discernment in that I suspect that the historian looking back from the future, will be a little more exigent to delusions than the historian of today looking back at the past, but is so thoroughly duped in spite of his much vaunted wisdom. What I mean by that is the historians of the future will most definitely be of a higher order of intellect than the historians of today due to the benefit of a much lengthier foundation in retrospection. Stands to reason surely?
Frankly, I'd be surprised if an anthropologist doesn't say that Xmas is the most important time of the year (it certainly is to businesses), and that since the main figure "around" in our time is Santa, that the most important mythological figure of Western society is Santa Claus.
I doubt it........we already know today that Santa Claus was the creation of US poet Washington Irwin, written in New Amsterdam (later renamed New York). New Amsterdam was full of Dutch settlers and the Patron Saint of Holland is Sinter Klaas which is Dutch for Saint Nicholas or Hagios Nikolas, the 4th century Bishop of Myra, in South Western Asia who endlessly gave to the poor, the orphaned and Myra’s other wretched. Irwin corrupted Sinter Klaas into Santa Claus and an American fantasy was born.
The original day of giving gifts was Saint Nicholas Day, 6th December which was also warped to 25th December.
American political cartoonist Thomas Nast cemented the image of the modern Santa Claus into American minds when he drew Santa for the cover for Harper’s Weekly. Nast's Santa was a benevolent figure with a ruddy complexion in a red suit, the image stuck and Nast continued to draw the annual Harper’s Santa cover slowly adding the sleigh, reindeer and his home at the North Pole until eventually the original Hagios Nikolas seamlessly morphed from a South West Asian into a European and then into a new home at the North Pole.
Another American name for Santa Claus is Kris Kringle which is yet another American corruption of the European original. The American movie “Miracle on 34th Street” was the main catalyst for this fantasy’s manifestation. The name is a mispronunciation of "Christkindl” which is German for Christ Child.
They might even go so far as to say that Santa is an old man because our society is misogynistic, and that he wears a red suit, because it is the colour of blood, showing how Santa was a violent and vicious god, and that our society fought vicious wars in the name of Santa, like World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
Hmmm........maybe, but it’s a bit of a stretch though as we already know today that the red suit is taken from the Three Wise Men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. In European recounting of the story of the Three Wise Men they always drop the “From the East” part. It’s believed that the “From the East” meant from Persia, a great scholarly nation at the time whose upper class scholars (wise men), usually wore red and white coloured robes in the same vein as Romans always wore white Togas, the characteristic badge of Roman citizenship.
As for Zeus.......well there is more than adequate evidence - now - that Zeus was a Greek mythological God. No more than a very ancient fantasy from a society that bordered Asia and – may or may not – have adopted many beliefs, practises and knowledge from its older and larger neighbour.
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Posted: 8/29/2009 12:12:09 PM | 'Airbornemedik'..RE:Msg 15//Also why Jesus started his church with people, so it could be passed down throughout time//
Jesus' teachings are good.. No doubt he was a philosopher.
Sadly though, alot of unfortunate people skipping about today 'actually' believe that the historical Jesus was 'actually' the son of God and not just a man like the rest of us.
I don't believe he was... In the same way that I don't believe David Koresh was the second coming of the son of God either. It's possible that in 2000 years time, David Koresh and his story/death might amass a huge cult-like following. In 2000 years time, people might walk into a 'Davkoreshian?' church and thank God for delivering his son to us for the second time.
It's just my view (sorry to go a bit off topic). | |
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Posted: 8/29/2009 5:51:18 PM | Sadly though, alot of unfortunate people skipping about today 'actually' believe that the historical Jesus was 'actually' the son of God and not just a man like the rest of us.
I respect your opinion, however its important to remember that an opinion should be the result of thought and not a substitute for it. People may arguably suggest that Jesus wasn't the Son of God, but Historians and Theologians would most certainly acknowledge that Jesus existed.
The Person of Jesus Christ distinguishes himself from perceived philosopher by virtue of the fact that anything in philosophy is possible as long as you don't identify it as truth. Jesus intrinsically represented the truth by his very existence.
Five ways that Jesus is unique:
First is his eternal perspective. The Bible says unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. The son is not born, the child is born. The son is given because the son eternally existed. He prays in his high priestly prayer “restore to me the glory Father that I had in your presence before this world was made.”
Jesus is the only creature in existence as part of the God head whose reason for existence is in him-self. Jesus fuses every moment of history with meaning. If he is transcending over time, if he is the eternal “I Am” and is always ever present then he fuses all time with meaning.
Second is his internal imperative. He did not come to set up a political power that would rule and constrain from without. He came to touch the hearts of men and women that would bring the imperative from within.
Napoleon said “Alexander’s kingdom and my kingdom will ultimately come to not, but Jesus’ kingdom is indestructible because ours was dominated by power and force. He has dominated the life of people with the power of love.
Third is his personal directive. As vast as this world is, as vast is this world was, Christ had time for the individual. His message is personal in the cosmic scheme of things how marvelous it is that he has time for you and me.
Forth is his inspirational incentive. How his existence has influenced and inspired people throughout time, from then to today.
Fifth is his incarnational distinctive. As the word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/29/2009 8:14:47 PM |
The difference between Santa and Zues is that there is an abundance of literature, and books, and written history, stories and such that put Santa in the proper context, in addition to other historical facts.
Literature, and Books and all sorts of written, decomposable material, so very unlike a stone tabtlet or wall, or sheep or goat skins for that matter. The chance of written evidence, like books, surviving 2000+ years is slim. Furthermore, how much would be found, are we assuming that the geography stays the same?
For example, how much of Egyptian history is buried beneath the sands of North Africa? Sure, we may know a fare bit, but only because they wrote much of their history in stone. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/29/2009 11:31:22 PM | 'BuzWeaver'..//I respect your opinion, however it's important to remember that an opinion should be the result of thought and not a substitute for it//
My opinion is born from commonsense.... Commonsense seems to avoid those who give their reason to manmade religion.
I have become aware of an honorable standpoint that is born from respect.. It is a simple standpoint that breeds understanding.... Here it is:...
You are entitled to believe what you believe. As I am me. You haven't been touched by Islam nor Judaism, Christianity seems to be your football team.. I try to rise above the man-made-ness of it all these days.. Religion causes division.... I won't add to it's problems.
'BuzWeaver'..//Jesus intrinsically represented the truth by his very existence//
....that's very poetic.... You speak from your heart. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/30/2009 4:25:43 AM | RE Msg: 17 by Chiny®™©:
Frankly, I'd be surprised if an anthropologist doesn't say that Xmas is the most important time of the year (it certainly is to businesses), and that since the main figure "around" in our time is Santa, that the most important mythological figure of Western society is Santa Claus. I doubt it........we already know today that Santa Claus was the creation of US poet Washington Irwin, written in New Amsterdam (later renamed New York). New Amsterdam was full of Dutch settlers and the Patron Saint of Holland is Sinter Klaas which is Dutch for Saint Nicholas or Hagios Nikolas, the 4th century Bishop of Myra, in South Western Asia who endlessly gave to the poor, the orphaned and Myra’s other wretched. Irwin corrupted Sinter Klaas into Santa Claus and an American fantasy was born.
Read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth
They might even go so far as to say that Santa is an old man because our society is misogynistic, and that he wears a red suit, because it is the colour of blood, showing how Santa was a violent and vicious god, and that our society fought vicious wars in the name of Santa, like World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Hmmm........maybe, but it’s a bit of a stretch though as we already know today that the red suit is taken from the Three Wise Men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus. In European recounting of the story of the Three Wise Men they always drop the “From the East” part. It’s believed that the “From the East” meant from Persia, a great scholarly nation at the time whose upper class scholars (wise men), usually wore red and white coloured robes in the same vein as Romans always wore white Togas, the characteristic badge of Roman citizenship.
I guess if we assumed that everyone else in history thinks like us, and if they don't, they must be stupid and ignorant, then it would be impossible to not think like us. But we know that's not true. Just because someone doesn't agree with everything we think, doesn't make them stupid, or ignorant. It often means they're smart and well-educated. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/30/2009 11:16:37 AM | 'Chiny'..//maybe, but it's a bit of a stretch though as we already know today that the red suit is taken from the three wise men who brought gifts to the baby Jesus.//
As far as I know, old Saint Nick (Santa Claus) used to dart about the sky delivering his 'spend money on gifts' message whilst wearing a 'green' coat up until the 1930s. During that time, a sustained advertising campaign by Coca~cola depicted him wearing red and white (the colours of Coca~cola)..... It stuck....
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/31/2009 7:45:33 AM | | In 100 years all modern day religions will be considered mythology. That's the fate of all major religions. | |
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| Santa Claus and Zeus
Posted: 8/31/2009 8:07:17 AM |
As far as I know, old Saint Nick (Santa Claus) used to dart about the sky delivering his 'spend money on gifts' message whilst wearing a 'green' coat up until the 1930s. During that time, a sustained advertising campaign by Coca~cola depicted him wearing red and white (the colours of Coca~cola)..... It stuck....
We see how quickly information can be distorted. In 1000 thousand years I doubt anyone will remember Old Saint Nick dressed in green. | |
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