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 Author Thread: Gypsy interlude
 ~Music

Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 1
Gypsy interlude
Posted: 8/27/2009 4:41:03 PM
I have always had a fascination with they gypsy lifestyle. Just curious what the opinions of others are.


BUCHAREST, Romania - At first, fans politely applauded the Roma performers sharing a stage with Madonna. Then the pop star condemned widespread discrimination against Roma, or Gypsies — and the cheers gave way to jeers.

The sharp mood change that swept the crowd of 60,000, who had packed a park for Wednesday night's concert, underscores how prejudice against Gypsies remains deeply entrenched across Eastern Europe.

Despite long-standing efforts to stamp out rampant bias, human rights advocates say Roma probably suffer more humiliation and endure more discrimination than any other people group on the continent.

Sometimes, it can be deadly: In neighboring Hungary, six Roma have been killed and several wounded in a recent series of apparently racially motivated attacks targeting small countryside villages predominantly settled by Gypsies.

"There is generally widespread resentment against Gypsies in Eastern Europe. They have historically been the underdog," Radu Motoc, an official with the Soros Foundation Romania, said Thursday.

Roma, or Gypsies, are a nomadic ethnic group believed to have their roots in the Indian subcontinent. They live mostly in southern and eastern Europe, but hundreds of thousands have migrated west over the past few decades in search of jobs and better living conditions.

Romania has the largest number of Roma in the region. Some say the population could be as high as 2 million, although official data put it at 500,000.

Until the 19th century, Romanian Gypsies were slaves, and they've gotten a mixed response ever since: While discrimination is widespread, many East Europeans are enthusiastic about Gypsy music and dance, which they embrace as part of the region's cultural heritage.

That explains why the Roma musicians and a dancer who had briefly joined Madonna onstage got enthusiastic applause. And it also may explain why some in the crowd turned on Madonna when she paused during the two-hour show — a stop on her worldwide "Sticky and Sweet" tour — to touch on their plight.

"It has been brought to my attention ... that there is a lot of discrimination against Romanies and Gypsies in general in Eastern Europe," she said. "It made me feel very sad."

Thousands booed and jeered her.

A few cheered when she added: "We don't believe in discrimination ... we believe in freedom and equal rights for everyone." But she got more boos when she mentioned discrimination against homosexuals and others.

"I jeered her because it seemed false what she was telling us. What business does she have telling us these things?" said Ionut Dinu, 23.

Madonna did not react and carried on with her concert, held near the hulking palace of the late communist dictator Nicolae Ceausescu.

Her publicist, Liz Rosenberg, said Madonna and other had told her there were cheers as well as jeers.

"Madonna has been touring with a phenomenal troupe of Roma musicians who made her aware of the discrimination toward them in several countries so she felt compelled to make a brief statement," Rosenberg said in an e-mail. "She will not be issuing a further statement."

One Roma musician said the attitude toward Gypsies is contradictory.

"Romanians watch Gypsy soap operas, they like Gypsy music and go to Gypsy concerts," said Damian Draghici, a Grammy Award-winner who has performed with James Brown and Joe****r.

"But there has been a wave of aggression against Roma people in Italy, Hungary and Romania, which shows me something is not OK," he told the AP in an interview. "The politicians have to do something about it. People have to be educated not to be prejudiced. All people are equal, and that is the message politicians must give."

Nearly one in two of Europe's estimated 12 million Roma claimed to have suffered an act of discrimination over the past 12 months, according to a recent report by the Vienna-based EU Fundamental Rights Agency. The group says Roma face "overt discrimination" in housing, health care and education.

Many do not have official identification, which means they cannot get social benefits, are undereducated and struggle to find decent jobs.

Roma children are more likely to drop out of school than their peers from other ethnic groups. Many Romanians label Gypsies as thieves, and many are outraged by those who beg or commit petty crimes in Western Europe, believing they spoil Romania's image abroad.

In May 2007, Romanian President Traian Basescu was heard to call a Romanian journalist a "stinky Gypsy" during a conversation with his wife. Romania's anti-discrimination board criticized Basescu, who later apologized.

Human rights activists say the attacks in Hungary, which began in July 2008, may be tied to that country's economic crisis and the rising popularity of far-right vigilantes angered by a rash of petty thefts and other so-called "Gypsy crime." Last week, police arrested four suspects in a nightclub in the eastern city of Debrecen.

Bulgaria, the Czech Republic and Slovakia also have been criticized for widespread bias against Roma.

Madonna's outrage touched a nerve in Romania, but it seems doubtful it will change anything, said the Soros Foundation's Motoc.

"Madonna is a pop star. She is not an expert on interethnic relations," he said.

___

AP Writers Alison Mutler in Bucharest, William J. Kole in Vienna and Nekesa Mumbi Moody in New York contributed to this report.
 Wildcard74

Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 2
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Posted: 8/27/2009 5:51:12 PM
She's just another celebrity who should stick to singing. She's a tired act and should keep her mouth shut when it comes to world affairs. Those fans are not paying to listen to her extreme left wing views, they are paying to see and hear her perform.
 daynadaze

Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 3
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Posted: 8/27/2009 9:35:23 PM
I don't care for Madonna but I don't think because she's a singer that she can't have political opinions. Since she has a stage to use to get her thoughts out, so she may have a better chance than the average Joe, but to think entertainers shouldn't speak up if they want to is pretty dumb. I mean do you give up your civil rights when you become a celebrity? I don't think so. There's no reason beyond bigotry, that she should have to shut up and stick to singing.
 junipermoon

Joined: 3/1/2006
Msg: 4
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Posted: 8/28/2009 5:27:54 AM
suppose pete seeger had kept his mouth shut. woody...arlo...dylan...springsteen...

you don't censor those who want to draw attention to injustices. you might as well start burning books.
 Earthpuppy

Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 5
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Posted: 8/28/2009 6:13:07 AM
Well put Junipermoon. For those firmly esconced in the 16th century, speaking out on social injustice issues is a thought crime, worthy of a good burning at the stake.

They have no problem with a Reagan using his actor status, or a Ted Nuggent slinging far right tripe. The double standard bearers will never notice their hypocrisy.

ON a lighter note, Gogol Bordello is fun and wild Gypsy punk. Hutz is a hoot.
http://gogolbordello.com/news/
 Earthpuppy

Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 6
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Posted: 8/28/2009 6:31:00 AM
Forgot to include the disclaimer that if colorful language is offensive to you, please avoid Gogol Bordello.

Here's their myspace page for samples of their music. It is high energy. Hutz starred in the film "Everything is Illuminated" and provided the soundtrack for "Wristcutters, a Love Story".
http://www.myspace.com/gogolbordello

INTRO WORD by EUGENE HUTZ
There are many of us for whom music is an irreplaceable part of life. We rely on it to take us out of sadness, pressures of poverty, youth, age, etc. Mixed with alcohol it seems to be a remedy for just about anything, be it a rapid fire of notes exploding in catharsis all over the major key, or an obsessive marathon of soul-searching sounds crawling around minor key... it all appears somehow more solid and present in our lives than materials, something we can always address and hold on to. At its best, music connects us to a feeling as large as the whole goddamn universe itself...

Of course, sometimes, when sober, we can say, "Well, after all, it's just music..." Yet everywhere you'll go, in every culture, you'll see its major royal presence. Some say with a straight up claim that music is the essence of life (for example: Wlodzimier Staniewski with his theatre group Gardzienice (Musicality of Earth, or see Praktyki teatralne W. Staniewski Test, Lublin, 97, Poland)); I join in with them. Others see it more as an enhancing luxurious amusement-like activity. Sure, I'm down with that too, but one way or another, both positions advocate its primal positive powers.

Often you will hear people talking about a concert they've experienced for years! Why? In Gypsy mythology they say it is memorable because the devil visited that room; others say the other guy was there. But one way or another they all link it to supernatural...

Considering its power, it is not impossible to think of music making as a sacred art discipline and, for example, in anthropological tribal studies, the medicine man functions are not really differentiated from musicians......................
 frankster_p

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 7
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Posted: 8/28/2009 6:33:45 AM
Shes Italian. Why is she sticking up for gypsies?
Does she know what toruble they have called in italy the last few years?
Needs her head read.
Finally italy has passed laws getting tough with gypsies and illegals.
Forza la lega nord.




Cheers.
F.P.
 wudger

Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 8
Gypsy interlude
Posted: 8/28/2009 7:05:10 AM

Shes Italian. Why is she sticking up for gypsies?
Does she know what toruble they have called in italy the last few years?
Needs her head read.



pretty much what hitler said right before he murdered hundreds of thousands if not millions.
 frankster_p

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 9
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Posted: 8/28/2009 7:13:31 AM
Drawing a long bow there.
The romanian government itself has called italy crazy.
Said thay in romania their home country they dont let them get away with what italy has.
As per usual, Italy are too nice.
 etourdi77

Joined: 7/7/2009
Msg: 10
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Posted: 8/28/2009 9:41:43 AM
Gypsies have been discriminated against and persecuted for thousands of years, it is about time someone gave them a voice. We have many Gypsies living here in America there are the Ludar the Bonna Gi and the Romnichels.When Americans find out their Heritage they are treated poorly.Why is it so many Groups in America are given protection by our Civil Rights laws, while Gypsies aren't even recognized as legitimate.They have strong family values and work ethic despite the stereotypes that have been plaguing them for centuries.They have deep rooted religious beliefs as well as fascinating cultural beliefs and traditions.
 wudger

Joined: 12/20/2007
Msg: 11
Gypsy interlude
Posted: 8/28/2009 10:26:06 AM

As per usual, Italy are too nice.




yeah, we should all follow the gentle way of the Romanian government.
 Ismene2

Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 12
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Posted: 8/28/2009 11:14:56 AM

….her extreme left wing views…
Being against racial and ethnic bigotry is an ‘extreme leftwing view’????


suppose Pete Seeger had kept his mouth shut. woody...Arlo...Dylan...Springsteen...

you don't censor those who want to draw attention to injustices. You might as well start burning books.
Agree!!
 DemonDingleBerry

Joined: 6/7/2009
Msg: 13
Gypsy interlude
Posted: 8/28/2009 11:57:48 AM

Just curious what the opinions of others are.

I don't think I've ever met a gypsy.
But I do know that every retail store I've ever worked for would post a notice during certain seasons to be wary of gypsies, to remain alert and pay attention to your til, cash handling, and be extra wary for shoplifters.

So my opinion is I don't know a gypsy. But I know American retail stores sure don't seem to trust them.

I think that's about the only opinion I'm entitled to.
 Earthpuppy

Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 14
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Posted: 8/28/2009 1:35:03 PM
yeah..I'm sure those department stores and you, also profile, blacks, Irish, Spanish speaking people, Finns and WASP women.
http://www.finlandforthought.net/2007/09/03/finns-among-worst-shoplifters-in-europe/
 Ismene2

Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 15
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Posted: 8/28/2009 1:49:34 PM
Living in Europe, I see gypsies occasionally; they live outside the mainstream, whether by choice is debatable. They are different and do wish to maintain their culture--they don't want to be absorbed into the mainstream culture. There is a lot of prejudice against them and intolerance. I also saw them a lot when I lived in Turkey; they live in temporary camps along the highway. Pretty much the same thing as in Europe, living outside the mainstream, not a lot of tolerance, etc. In general, European countries are terribly xenophobic and intolerant of other cultures and ethnic groups.
 etourdi77

Joined: 7/7/2009
Msg: 16
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Posted: 8/28/2009 1:57:47 PM
Like I said before there are many living in the US, I was married to a Ludar....I don't see where America treats them any better at least Europe recognizes them as a minority group. Many Gypsies living in America own homes although there are still quite a few who live in travel trailers.They typically have jobs with hight rates of return such as Asphalt paving and Sealcoating, Painting, there are still some families that are into the Carnival scene and even fortune telling...Once you know what to look for you will be surprised how many you see..
 Ismene2

Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 17
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Posted: 8/28/2009 2:02:35 PM
When I was growing up, in America, they lived in my neighborhood. I don't know if there are any census statistics, but I lived in America for 51 years, and based simply on personal observation and experience, I would say there are many, many more living in Europe than in America, as I have only been living overseas for 6 years and have seen hundreds more than I ever saw in America.

What makes you think 'Europe' recognizes them as a minority? Is it written into some EU document or something? Because 'Europe' is not one country. Each country would have it's own independent approach to minorities. Unless you are referring to something which is mandated by the EU...something I'm not aware of.
 nebula22

Joined: 8/14/2007
Msg: 18
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Posted: 8/28/2009 2:02:46 PM
The Native Americans would still be living free today if it was not for the American government making it illegal for them to do so.
Does anyone know what a reservation is and why the Indians were forced to live on them.?
The Gypsies could have it worse than they have it now ,,
They could be forced to live on reservations where food will not grow while most of them starve to death or die of poor health like what happened to Native Americans after the europeans came here.
 Ismene2

Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 19
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Posted: 8/28/2009 2:09:20 PM
Hitler killed hundreds of thousands of them, and they are and always have been the recipients of violence and cruelty based on ethnic bigotry and hatred. They've not had it any better than Native Americans, if that's what you are worried about. It isn't a good thing either way...I agree with your points on what was done to the Native Americans, I'm just saying that gypsies have most likely not fared much better.

The UK is an EU member, but each country is a separate nation. The EU is essentially an economic body.
 etourdi77

Joined: 7/7/2009
Msg: 20
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Posted: 8/28/2009 2:16:17 PM
My bad,England has, thought that was part of Europe..all that you said about Native Americans is true but this thread is about Gypsies. Because the Native Americans were and are treated badly every other minority group deserves to be treated badly?
 nebula22

Joined: 8/14/2007
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Posted: 8/28/2009 2:24:48 PM
They should not be treated badly , but they should at least understand that it could be worse..
I have met Gypsies and camped with them in the forest..
They get treated just as badly as the Natives whenever the authorities find them living free and living in the forest.

I think all people in the world should be Free and Freedom should be legalized.
I also think that all of this prejudices should end.
After all ,,, We are all HUMAN BEINGS aren't we?
 AKWriter

Joined: 8/1/2009
Msg: 22
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Posted: 8/28/2009 2:26:32 PM
I respect the sentiment, but I think that the statement reflected a clueless and American-centric sensibility; here we place a higher value on racial and cultural diversity; in eastern Europe it's the exact opposite.

On the other hand, it got her name back in the news, and people talking about her and that's generally all she really gives a **** about.
 AKWriter

Joined: 8/1/2009
Msg: 23
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Posted: 8/28/2009 2:28:30 PM
To clarify; if she thought it was going to make any difference, she's an idiot. Of course the publicity was probably the ONLY thing she was after in the first place.
 arwen52

Joined: 3/13/2008
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Posted: 8/28/2009 3:34:36 PM

suppose pete seeger had kept his mouth shut. woody...arlo...dylan...springsteen...

you don't censor those who want to draw attention to injustices. you might as well start burning books.

Bob Hope, Jay Leno are some other entertainers on a different point of the spectrum who have used their celebrity status to present a political point of view.

Bringing attention to the status of Gypsies - I'm okay with that.
 junipermoon

Joined: 3/1/2006
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Posted: 8/28/2009 4:36:56 PM
apparently madonna worked with these people, rehearsed with them and toured with them. this made her acutely aware of their culture, status and plights. of course she felt the need to mention it during her show. i'd probably do the same.

my ancestors belonged to the hungarian roma. long time ago, of course. but eventually they emigrated to escape pogrom-like attacks. ahead of the nazis, apparently, as an estimated 600,000 of them died in concentration camps.

throughout history, minority populations have suffered at the hands of larger, more powerful groups. and no one group has the market cornered on suffering and oppression. blacks, jews, natives, christians, asians, women, roma and gays have all experienced domination and tyranny. and many times they did not have someone standing up in front of a crowd to bring attention to the problem.

personally, i wish i could command that kind of attention and use it to advance positive energy on this little planet.
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