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 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 1
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The ParadoxPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Has anyone noticed that the things their prospective "pool of fish" desires, you believe you offer? Now I can only speak from the male perspective, but I suspect this holds true for both sexes. From the male perspective I find women searching for a man who is, kind, intelligent, passionate, spiritual, exhibits honesty & integrity, has good humor, is emotionally available, and able to communicate. Now I personally believe I have spent a lifetime evolving such attributes. However, it appears that en masse women will find me wanting, and oft times without any correspondence.

So there appears to be a disconnect there; while we believe we achieving our targeted objectives, the greater population may not. Perhaps in analogy, it is like drivers on the road, all drivers believe they are "good" drivers, but the rest of the roadway knows they are not.

It would be interesting to run a survey of profile requirements, and ask how certain profiles meet or don't meet those requirements. Perhaps we could then better understand what adjustments could be made to reach our targeted group :)

Any thoughts??
 sassy_scorpio
Joined: 2/27/2009
Msg: 2
The Paradox
Posted: 9/6/2009 7:28:56 PM
you live too far away from mer
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 3
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The Paradox
Posted: 9/6/2009 8:14:53 PM
Hehe...I wasn't really talking about my issues personally, just using myself as an example :) Although we may have gained our first bit of empirical data here, location may be an issue...and in my case most assuredly :) However I previously resided in Portland, where there was a large population at hand. So I am unsure of the value of location in the analysis.
 younowho
Joined: 5/17/2006
Msg: 4
The Paradox
Posted: 9/6/2009 9:59:01 PM
your probably closer to Boise than any major city in ore.. yes the laundry list .. if you get by this. you just might, I say might get the Ol " you live to far away " a whole 50 miles. Oh but of course she loves long walks on the Beach ( 90 miles away ) and long drives on country roads ( 100 / 200 / 300 miles ??)
I didn't live in Portland, but did work there for 15 yrs. I see ladys saying you must live within 75 miles. Guess she has never checked mileage between hlllsboro and troutdale or up to the cabin ay Zig zag ..

The oreon coast covers well over 300 miles, Whats to far away. or is this a one night thing oops .. did I say that out loud ?
 dancing_banana
Joined: 7/8/2009
Msg: 5
The Paradox
Posted: 9/6/2009 11:11:20 PM
Hi Kowboi,

Instead of a paradox/disconnect, could it be that the traits you've listed are only a partial list of what the women of whom you speak are wanting?
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 6
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Posted: 9/7/2009 9:53:29 AM
It is entirely possible, and part of this discussion. If one meets the apparent requirements but still misses the mark, what are the unseen requirements that would give one greater success in their target group?

The other option is that we believe we have met requirements that in reality we have not.
 dancing_banana
Joined: 7/8/2009
Msg: 7
The Paradox
Posted: 9/8/2009 1:11:08 AM
Hi again Kowboi,


If one meets the apparent requirements but still misses the mark, what are the unseen requirements that would give one greater success in their target group?


One would have to inquire of the target group, would one not? ;-)
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 8
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Posted: 9/8/2009 7:29:54 AM
Ah, and the point of this discussion :) Since I believe I am not an anomaly in this issue, and I suspect this issue can be seen for both sexes, I thought we could all put our heads and perspectives together and identify some of the unseen factors.
 kbodley
Joined: 11/26/2008
Msg: 9
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The Paradox
Posted: 9/8/2009 7:51:11 AM

Ah, and the point of this discussion :) Since I believe I am not an anomaly in this issue, and I suspect this issue can be seen for both sexes, I thought we could all put our heads and perspectives together and identify some of the unseen factors.


I offer this comment and am being only partly facetious! I think that perhaps the act of searching online for a 'perfect match' leads one to disconnect somewhat from the realities of life and leads us all quickly down the garden path into the world of our 'dream' date! In the fantasy world of our dreams we seldom deal with what blows relationships to smithereens in the real world - namely location, attraction, money, and values.

The reality is that until you actually meet someone face to face it is difficult to evaluate whether or not this is a person that you would be willing to drive across the state to spend time with, or for that matter across the city during rush hour. While you can get a sense of how this person deals with the financial aspects of their lives, until you spend time with them you have no way of knowing whether or not their spending habits, sense of financial responsibility, etc. etc. will meld with yours. And while you might exchange emails, phone calls, etc. the only way to really know whether or not someone has values that mesh with yours is to be with them when the ups and downs of life appear.

Then of course the issue of attraction raises it's ugly head! The fact of the matter is that some people work to post the most attractive photo they have in their album (and often error in putting photos that were taken 10 years and 50 lbs ago); or perhaps just as bad post a photo taken with a bad webcam or cell phone. The bottom line is that no one can look at a photo and know for certain that the person on the other end of the good old electronic link will actually light that mysterious spark of attraction that we are all looking for!

Could it be that many who choose this rather remote and impersonal means to search for our future 'perfect match' are much more comfortable with our fantasy dream date than we are with the real people on the other end of the email address?

Just a thought!
 MsEclectic
Joined: 12/13/2008
Msg: 10
The Paradox
Posted: 9/8/2009 7:51:36 AM

I find women searching for a man who is, kind, intelligent, passionate, spiritual, exhibits honesty & integrity, has good humor, is emotionally available, and able to communicate.


Sounds like a pretty tall order! A couple of thoughts struck me. First, you left out "attractive". When you are looking at women's profiles, surely that is a factor for you?

Second, these criteria are all somewhat subjective. For example, what one person finds intelligent, another might find intimidating or pretentious. And good humor can mean a lot of different things -- do they appreciate sarcasm? Can they laugh at goofy gags?


Now I personally believe I have spent a lifetime evolving such attributes. However, it appears that en masse women will find me wanting, and oft times without any correspondence.


See above. Additionally, communicating this in a profile is pretty darn tricky.

Another frustration is the 'disconnect' in messages I get and the profiles they are from. For example, I fairly often receive an email that just says "liked your profile - wanna chat?"...maybe my expectations need adjusting, but that screams no effort, cut-n-pasted to multiple fish.

So, even if it is from a profile that I am attracted to, I won't think they are a good match for me.

Finally, everyone has some red-flag alerts. You might set them off for someone without even knowing what they are. For me, an example of this is any man who has limited the age range for email contact ending at their own age or younger.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 11
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Posted: 9/8/2009 6:13:17 PM
Ok, I'm going to blather on for a bit, and hopefully this will make some sense by the end :) First, I purposely left attractive out because this is a hot button for some folks, who see attractive as a superficial element. Personally, and I say as much in my profile, I think lust is an important part of a relationship...meaning you would find them attractive. We also know that such attraction is mostly visual, otherwise the porn industry would not be as prolific as it is...not much depth in those images :)

Second, you are absolutely correct, one persons definition of a required item may not be the same as someone else's. Which brings up a question, is there a way to be sure we're comparing apple's to apple's? While it may be difficult to communicate such things in a profile, judgments are still being made...there must be a way to swing a negative judgment to a positive one.

Previously we had identified location as a possible issue, although I was unsure of how strong an issue, especially in populated areas. Now we can also add superficial messages, indicating lack of effort. While this is a valid issue, I would like to point out that if an individual is receiving a 90% rejection rate, by human nature they will begin to put less and less effort into such failure. From my own experience I don't think I have ever received a positive response (if any) to my e-mails from the people listed on my "Viewed Me" page; which would lead me to believe everyone who has visited my profile has run away screaming...I certainly hope this is not true :)

I think e-mail age groupings could shed some light on personality types; but I must offer this, I list age groups from 30-55, 30 being the age of my ex-wife at the time (however, I doubt I will pursue that age difference again :)), I have since relocated and my e-mail address has changed, I can't update the age spread without giving a new e-mail, and I am reluctant to do so.

I might also add that although astrology is not at the center of my life, I have observed certain trends, and so steer away from some astrological signs. So astrological signs could be an issue.

I hope all this blathering is in some way articulate :) Again, I am only using myself as example because it is the only data I have readily at hand :)
 dancing_banana
Joined: 7/8/2009
Msg: 12
The Paradox
Posted: 9/10/2009 12:36:38 AM
Okay, Kowboi,

So are you asking the ole what-do-women-want question? If you are, the obvious answer is, of course, that it varies from woman to woman.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 13
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Posted: 9/10/2009 7:33:02 AM
Actually the question is more along the lines of, if a profile seems to meet another profiles wants and desires why is it "a swing and a miss?" Rejected without hesitation. I think that is the disconnect I was speaking of. In my case, an example I have readily at hand, this trend is in overwhelming percentage. In reading other forum discussions, I have picked up similar leanings, and thought I would step forward and pose the question directly :)
 dancing_banana
Joined: 7/8/2009
Msg: 14
The Paradox
Posted: 9/11/2009 3:57:00 AM
Hi Kowboi,


I think lust is an important part of a relationship...meaning you would find them attractive. We also know that such attraction is mostly visual


K, so here could be one 'disconnect' - a person might be attracted to the text portion of a profile but not to the pictures of the poster.


is there a way to be sure we're comparing apple's to apple's? While it may be difficult to communicate such things in a profile


It's hard to be sure what a reader is taking from one's profile without direct communication from them. What might be humorous to the poster might be offensive to the reader, as one example.


there must be a way to swing a negative judgment to a positive one


I disagree. Values vary from person to person.


I don't think I have ever received a positive response (if any) to my e-mails from the people listed on my "Viewed Me" page; which would lead me to believe everyone who has visited my profile has run away screaming


The 'Viewed Me' thing could mean everything or it could mean nothing - it could mean that after viewing she decided you weren't a match, or it could mean that she viewed you because she saw your forum post, or she wanted to see your hat/shirt/background close up, or you looked like someone she knew, or you came up in her matches, or you viewed her first so she viewed you back. There's too much of a 'lookie-loo' factor to Viewed Me for it to mean much.


I can't update the age spread without giving a new e-mail, and I am reluctant to do so


Why?


So astrological signs could be an issue.


Are you saying that perhaps some women steer away from your sign?
 MsEclectic
Joined: 12/13/2008
Msg: 15
The Paradox
Posted: 9/11/2009 8:50:37 AM
OK, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and speak specifcally to Kowboi's profile. Disclaimer: The below is only my OPINION. Based on your current profile...Have you tried the profile review forum? Why not see what they say, in case I am way off base with my comments?

<Edit> I decided to email my comments privately, as he did not specifically as for a profile review.
 sailor7
Joined: 7/16/2009
Msg: 16
The Paradox
Posted: 9/11/2009 8:19:54 PM
(standard disclaimer) This is an age old subject and the answer I've found to be relatively simple. Women wont love , Men wont sex. It's not really a card game it's more like an auction, How much love will you give me for my sex and vice verca. This may sound cynical, but it's a pretty flat and solid base to draw any assumptions or conclusions you may need from. Chris
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 17
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Posted: 9/11/2009 9:53:46 PM
Ok, to keep the group up to speed here. What mseclectic had to say was basically that my profile was its own paradox. I look like a redneck, but I don't speak like one. I make very thoughtful statements in the forum, but some could look at my profile and think "player." This is a very general summation of a much longer discussion. And I must admit, to some extent I am all of the above. I have a somewhat sophisticated background, and a down home value system...it makes me very hard to stereotype.

Now that being said, I'm not sure that my personal contrasting attributes play well into the overall question...how can one improve this sizable "swing and miss" percentage? How can one align their attributes to those being requested?

Sailor,
Before a discussion of love for sex can ensue, first there has to be a discussion :) Part of the issue in this discussion is rejection without correspondence. Not that I am advocating a love for sex exchange...anyway not since I was 25...hehe.
 kbodley
Joined: 11/26/2008
Msg: 18
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Posted: 9/12/2009 7:41:25 AM
There is an old adage in the sales game that says, "Before you can sell what John Brown buys, you must see John Brown through John Brown's eyes."

So - perhaps the answer to your original paradoxical question would be this. Ask yourself what the kind of woman that you would like to connect with would want in a relationship. What type of man would she be attracted to? What qualities, values, and activities would SHE search for? Then, assuming of course that you possess all, or most, of those qualities, write your profile to showcase those aspects of your life and personality.

After all, the reality is that each of our profiles is essentially an internet advertisement. We are in a very real manner posting a sales brochure in the hopes that we will attract some interested buyers!
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 19
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Posted: 9/12/2009 7:51:35 AM
Ah, and that was the premise of this discussion. If you believe you have those qualities and present them, only to be rejected without hesitation, do you really have those qualities you believe you possess? Or is there some other underlying issue, and what might it be?
 MsEclectic
Joined: 12/13/2008
Msg: 20
The Paradox
Posted: 9/12/2009 12:49:12 PM

If you believe you have those qualities and present them, only to be rejected without hesitation, do you really have those qualities you believe you possess?


If you keep getting rejected without hesitation by women who you believe are looking for what you have, there is a distinct possibility that one or more of the following is true:

1) You don't have the qualities they want.
2) You have misunderstood their wants.
3) Your profile does not present what you think it does.

Another possibility is that this is the wacky world of The Interwebs, and not everything always makes sense.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 21
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Posted: 9/12/2009 1:22:02 PM
Mseclectic,
glad to see I didn't scare you away with our off-forum conversation :))
Your items are on the mark. The question is how to correct what is likely, unintentional, and unaware issues. If one asks for a rose, and a rose is offered only to be scoffed at, there must be a way to bring things into alignment.

I think misunderstanding is key here. I myself at times have had to hold phone conversations to clear things up, upon hearing my timbre and lilt, I have been told my sentences and statements become clearer. Here is a quote, "now when I read your writings, I hear your voice, and it makes much more sense." This was from a women who became offended by my statements, though that was far from my intent. Now this is an example of misunderstanding through correspondence, it seems likely that there could be misunderstanding prior to correspondence.

So the question is, must it be this way? Is this an unresolvable problem with text communication, and the odds are simply against us in this endeavor? Is this the best we can do in this arena, is it really a gamble at lottery ticket odds? Or can we use this media to make accurate and successful communication? And what can we do in that regard?
 Bluegeenes
Joined: 2/15/2009
Msg: 22
The Paradox
Posted: 9/12/2009 4:50:07 PM
Poor Kowboi. You seem to be in that sad frame of mind that most men come to after spending some time on this or any other dating site.

I don’t consider myself a wise person, but after a few kicks in the head I am capable of learning a thing or two, and what I have come to know is this:

Give up. I don’t mean that in a negative way. Rather, simply accept online dating for what it is. For the average guy, having success in this arena is like trying to win the Daytona 500 while driving a Toyota Camry. Now the Camry is a fine car, with many admirable qualities, that in a different time and place many people would love drive, but in this particular race it doesn’t stand much of a chance.

I remember when I first joined this site. I searched the profiles and saw many intelligent, beautiful women who seemed, through my eyes, to be very compatible. “Wow!” I thought as I wrote my first letter. “I wish I had tried this thing years ago. How wonderful it will be to get to know someone this great!” I’m sure you know the outcome to this story. Of course, she and most others I had written failed to respond. One or two responded with one shallow, quickly written, one sentence replies. Or in the best case, the correspondence lead to those cherished words “I’d think we should be friends.”

On reflection, I do have some “faults” that may have lead to these rejections. However, from talking to other men I have come to the conclusion that it may be likely it wouldn’t have mattered if I was rid of them, for the following reasons.

1. The numbers game. While I do not know the exact numbers, it is well known that the number of men on these sites out numbers that of the women. And among those men, there are quite few who try to beat the odds through volume (meaning they write as many women as they can). As a result, many women, and in particular attractive women, will receive an immense amount of attention. These women, being human beings they are, naturally begin to think “If I’m getting 20 e-mails a day, eventually the perfect man is bound write me.” So, when a guy such as you writes, she may think “Gee, he seems like a nice enough guy, but if I hold out I’m sure I can do better.” While I may not like it I, quite frankly, don’t blame anyone for having such an attitude. Were I in that situation, I might think the same.

2. Broken people. I don’t like saying this (for fear of admitting that I am a member of this group), but once you reach a certain age the number and “quality” of single people decreases dramatically. As you have browsed the profiles on this site I am sure you have said to yourself many times “It’s plainly obvious why this person is still single!” But among the broken people there are those who are smart and clever enough to apply cosmetics to their self descriptions. While on the surface they may seem like great and wonderful people, below that layer of profile mascara lies a real mess. Often they don’t know what they want, or want the wrong things. That is why they ignore you. Be grateful for this.

3. The Hemmingway syndrome. Where I live in Oregon, many people consider themselves “artists”. And many of these artists consider themselves good writers. “I know I’m a good writer. I just haven’t been discovered yet.” I often hear them say. The truth be told, very few people are good wordsmiths. Unfortunately, most people don’t realize this. I suspect that if we could all write like Hemmingway, Whitman and T.S. Elliot the success rate on this site would be much larger. So what are we left with? We just stumble around, writing the best we can in order to communicate the often kind, meaningful, but complex thoughts in our brains. There simply is no good answer for this problem.

I’ll say it again. Give up. There’s a big non-cyber world out there with many interesting, thoughtful and sometimes even attractive people. This is not to say that online dating is not a tool to supplement real world encounters. But I would recommend that you consider that, as a tool, online dating is akin to a bent, rusty screwdriver. With great patience and skill that tool can be used, but don’t rely on it.

While I may browse around the forums for cheap entertainment tonight, I won’t be writing anyone. Rather, I think I’ll walk down the street to the DairyMart and buy a lottery ticket. The guy who works there on Saturday nights is nice and likes to chat. Who knows? Maybe he has a single sister. Maybe I’ll win the lottery. Whatever the case may be, I’ll take my chances at the DairyMart over POF today. At least I’ll have a pleasant conversation with another person.
 kbodley
Joined: 11/26/2008
Msg: 23
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Posted: 9/12/2009 9:59:06 PM

The numbers game. While I do not know the exact numbers, it is well known that the number of men on these sites out numbers that of the women.


It is a numbers game! Every good sales person will tell you that it takes 100 "no" answers before you get a yes! So I figure that for every email I send, to every guy that is either going to send me a thanks but not interested email, or simply delete and no answer, just gets me that much closer to the 101st guy who will say yes!
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 24
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Posted: 9/12/2009 10:13:46 PM
Bluegreenes,
Very well written, maybe not Hemingway, but well written :)

Kbodley,
That's the rejection rate I was talking about. 1 possible positive to 100 negatives, there must be a way to achieve more efficient production. Also, you have to be pretty thick skinned, or apathetic, for that much rejection not to affect your psyche...even if you are an unfeeling, sorry **stard male like myself :)
 Bluegeenes
Joined: 2/15/2009
Msg: 25
The Paradox
Posted: 9/14/2009 5:15:12 PM
I must be over 120 Kbodley. What do I do now?!

Oh wait....I'll take my own advice and give up.....and maybe have a beer (a really cheap beer since I'm not trying to impress anyone).
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