| Adam and Eve
Posted: 9/13/2009 6:14:12 PM | I was talking to a friend of mine about Adam and Eve who believed they did not have children until after the fall. I always believed they did because God said "I'll increase your pain in labor" How would Eve know how much pain labor would have been if she did not already have a kid or two? What do you think? I also think the people who took the daughters of man to wife as many as they wanted were those kids although they are called the sons of God in the KJV of the Bible. Who do you think they were?
I know that only three people groups have the story of Adam and Eve in their dogma. If you do not belong to one you still may post your answer to the questions. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 10/2/2009 11:47:40 AM | The Bible says that Adam had lots of sons and daughters. I don't recall that it says that Cain and Abel were the firstborn. So there really isn't any reason I can think of that Eve didn't have kids before Cain and Abel, and even before the fall.
Also, it might explain how the world was full of people before the flood, as there were only 10 generations from Adam to Noah, and that's not a lot of time to have millions of people from just 2. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 10/5/2009 9:59:40 AM | Adam and Eve were the first two people in the Arabic/Jewish family and religious belief, not all humans that existed before, during and after A&E are related to A&E. The ancient religious texts that tell the campfire tales of the Arabs and Jews in “their own” small world of South-western Asia are exclusive to them and not inclusive of the many thousands of other human tribes that existed in the world.
Those other human tribes had their own indigenous religious beliefs that were not related to those of the Arabs and Jews including many that preceded the Arabic/Jewish philosophy.
Had it not been for the adoption of those Arabic/Jewish beliefs by a very powerful European Emperor whom then decreed it to be the religion of the Empire, forcing all its citizens to convert or die by the sword, then those beliefs would have simply been another Asian religion with no special credibility above any other.
"I'll increase your pain in labor"
Refers to the overall pain she felt for the betrayal of YHWH’s laws, this was a mental pain, not a physical pain such as childbirth. So YHWH added to the mental anguish she felt in her betrayal of her kind by adding physical pain to childbirth. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 10/6/2009 6:41:09 PM | My family tree from great grandpa to me is 315 people we are still procreating in my generation and so are the two younger than me so far they number 214. We do not live as long as they did nor do we start as young as the bible reports women did. I am sure that if we did we would have larger numbers esp having so much to eat and no birth control or electric light to work by at night. I'm sure a lot of people can be produced in 10 generations.
The Bible is more than an account of Jews and Arabs. They come after a large amount of man's existence on Earth. God dealt mainly with Ham's children for most of the time until the age of Jacob. If people would read the Bible without cultural blinders on they would see that God had followers all around the world before during and after the Jews of Judah. Abraham was chosen to complete a task but that task was not to be the it and all it was to bless all people. Every tribe. God is not a respecter of persons and He does not play favorites now. Please don't miss lead yourself into believing that he thinks of one group more than another. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:25:53 PM | RE Msg: 3 by Chiny®™©:
"I'll increase your pain in labor"
Refers to the overall pain she felt for the betrayal of YHWH’s laws, this was a mental pain, not a physical pain such as childbirth. So YHWH added to the mental anguish she felt in her betrayal of her kind by adding physical pain to childbirth. Interesting. I've never thought about this before. But it makes a lot of sense to me.
I've heard before that some women felt no pain in childbirth. I've also heard that many people are able to overpower tremendous pain, merely by the power of the mind. If such women feel no pain in childbirth, simply because they thought of physical pain as not a problem, then maybe Eve was the same.
This also might explain why Eve felt this pain only after the sin, as before then, she didn't have any guilt or shame, because she had never done anything she thought wrong. Before the sin, pain was just a feeling. But after, she carried guilt and shame, and irrational fears, and so pain became something that she feared, and it was that mental weakness that made such physical pain powerful. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 10/29/2009 12:39:41 PM | To me pain that is not felt because you use drugs or some other way of escape is not pain at all. I know that after I feel pain my brain releases a high that makes up for it. Why else would I love Mixed Marshal Arts? Labor pain is something that you see on the face of nearly everything that gives birth. Knowing the state of the world you are bringing a child into may make it harder but I still say Adam would not have had her leave him and go for a walk right after he got her. What human would? We are his children and somewhat like him. I do not think after years of seeing everything had a mate but me and watching animals pair off and be fruitful, my first idea would be to let the mate of my dreams who is perfect for me take a walk. God would not have had to order me twice to be fruitful and multiply. I would have gotten started strait away.
Maybe females are just different or is it because I'm American? Why do guys think they waited? | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 10/31/2009 12:22:41 PM | | hi... I take most of scripture literally so I believe the pain is about the birth in a physical sense but I can see how it would be more painful emotionally to have children born into a sinful world vs a Perfect World... blessings | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/1/2009 2:45:29 AM | If Adam and Eve had children before the fall then this is news to every Christian (I can't speak for Jewish or Islamic) theologian (at least that I know of, but I can stand corrected) since at least the time of Christ. Increase of pain in labor is not the only punishment of Eve--she's also punished by being ruled by her husband and having desire only for him. I've (and this is my opinion) have always seen the first temptation as lust, and the fall the creation of sexual desire and THUS procreation. Adam was created, Eve was created as a companion--there's no reason to think that without the fall and the expulsion from Eden there would have been a necessity for other people at all. If so, then God left that out (according to Genesis) when he created these two--are we meant to believe that he just left their babies out of the story?
In other words, you can't reconcile the creation account with the fact that others were OUTSIDE the garden (and even the small post-lapsarian community that A&E produced through their fertility) this easily. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/6/2009 12:45:55 PM |
I know that only three people groups have the story of Adam and Eve in their dogma. If you do not belong to one you still may post your answer to the questions.
Well I don't think that A&E ever existed or that the creation accounts in Genesis bear any resemblance to reality. I view the A&E story as complete allegory. The name Adam simply means man. In Canaanite mythology the consort of El (from which we get Hebrew Elohim and Arabic Allah) is Asherah. Her holy symbols are the tree and serpent. I've read that one of her many names was Hawwah, or Eve. Asherah is mentioned about 40 times in the Bible, and almost every reference to her is a hostile one. I view the A&E story as a polemic against Asherah and the Asherah cult. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/6/2009 1:17:38 PM | RE Msg: 9 by CountIbli:
The name Adam simply means man. In English. In Hebrew it means "from the ground", or "of red", but generally assumed to be more connected with the ground, as it makes a bit more sense to most than saying Adam was red-skinned (although he might have been).
In Canaanite mythology the consort of El (from which we get Hebrew Elohim and Arabic Allah) In Hebrew, the word simply means "strong being". Any divine connotation comes from the context of its usage.
is Asherah. Her holy symbols are the tree and serpent. I've read that one of her many names was Hawwah, or Eve. I tried looking up sources for Canaanite mythology, to confirm this. However, all that I've found is that the sources considered are the Bible, a few non-Canaanite authors, and a few Ugaritic inscriptions, although it appears that the Bible is the most major source for the Canaanite mythology, but combined with the assumption that it was biased against the Canaanites, but still could be considered reliable nonetheless. We cannot rely on the Bible if it is biased. We cannot rely on non-Canaanite authors for the same reasons, that they would almost certainly have rewritten the Canaanite history to suit their own views. The only things we can rely on about the Canaanites, are what the Canaanites wrote themselves, and that is extremely scant. So we're making it up as we go along, and usually to suit what we want to believe right now.
But, if you can provide Ugarit inscriptions that clearly state that one of the names of the goddess Asherah was Chavah (not Hawwah, as that is only one form of pronunication of semitic languages and therefore unreliable), then you would be really helping me out.
Asherah is mentioned about 40 times in the Bible, and almost every reference to her is a hostile one. In Hebrew, the word simply means a tree that is worshipped as an idol. Any divine connotation comes from the context of its usage. However, the general usage of the word in the Bible is that it is non-referential, and so there is no reference to any divinity called Asherah at all.
I view the A&E story as a polemic against Asherah and the Asherah cult. I get very worried when you call Canaanite beliefs "a cult". The only times I've heard anyone refer to a cult, was things that everyone believed were complete BS, and that represented a factious minority that brainwashed its members. That suggests to me that you don't have any belief that the claims about Asherah are even valid, and that the polemic is not only justified, but based in reality. That's inconsistent with your views. Did you mean to say religion? | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/6/2009 2:32:00 PM |
But, if you can provide Ugarit inscriptions that clearly state that one of the names of the goddess Asherah was Chavah (not Hawwah, as that is only one form of pronunication of semitic languages and therefore unreliable), then you would be really helping me out.
I'll see what I can do. For now I have
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVE#Name_and_origin
http://home.valornet.com/eldavis/The_Garden.html
but I'll see if I can get something more convincing.
In Hebrew, the word simply means a tree that is worshipped as an idol. Any divine connotation comes from the context of its usage. However, the general usage of the word in the Bible is that it is non-referential, and so there is no reference to any divinity called Asherah at all.
This is debateable. Mark Smith in The Early History of God spends quite a lot of time discussing the issue. IIRC he comes down on the side that the references are to the asherah pole rather than to the goddess herself, yet it seems hard to avoid the conclusion that the asherah pole was connected with the goddess Asherah (who had a variety of names)
I get very worried when you call Canaanite beliefs "a cult". The only times I've heard anyone refer to a cult, was things that everyone believed were complete BS, and that represented a factious minority that brainwashed its members.
I use the term in a more traditional sense rather than the more modern pejorative sense. Sorry for the confusion. But that doesn't mean I don't think it's all complete BS 
That suggests to me that you don't have any belief that the claims about Asherah are even valid, and that the polemic is not only justified, but based in reality. That's inconsistent with your views. Did you mean to say religion?
I suppose you could equate my use of the term cult with religion. What I was going for was the religious rituals and beliefs specific to Asherah, rather than the Canaanite religion as a whole.
In Hebrew, the word simply means "strong being". Any divine connotation comes from the context of its usage.
This is probably true in other Semitic languages. In Arabic Allah really means "the god" for instance. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/6/2009 5:16:15 PM | RE Msg: 11 by CountIbli:
But, if you can provide Ugarit inscriptions that clearly state that one of the names of the goddess Asherah was Chavah (not Hawwah, as that is only one form of pronunication of semitic languages and therefore unreliable), then you would be really helping me out. I'll see what I can do. For now I have
Historically the name appears to have been derived from that of the Hurrian Goddess "Kheba", who was shown in the Amarna Letters to be worshipped in Jerusalem during the Late Bronze Age. It has been suggested that the name Kheba may derive from Kubau, a woman who reigned as the first "king" of the Third Dynasty of Kish[2][3] Another name of Asherah in the first millennium BCE was Chawat, Hawah in Hebrew (Eve in English). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVE#Name_and_origin
Chawah, or Chavah, as in loch, cannot be Kheba, because the middle letter is a Vav (Waw), and the only letter in Hebrew to take a B- sound is the Bet, an entirely different letter. Not to mention that the Ch- letter cannot be pronounced as a K, even a Kh, and must always take the sound of "ch" as in loch. Also, the word requires a heh at the end, while the word "Keba" doesn't have that.
There is no source listed for the claim that the Canaanite goddess Asherah is also called Eve, only that it is assumed to be so, without any explanation or justification whatsoever. Without any basis for it, whatsoever, it's really just rambling nonsense.
This essay is the work of “Leolaia”
Taken from:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/ http://home.valornet.com/eldavis/The_Garden.html
It's the posts of the personal opinions of a user on a forum for JWs about the Bible. You might as well post mona's posts as your source of information.
Even her claims are on the basis that Chavah sounds like Chavat, which she says is a snake in Canaanite, and claims in and on that basis Obama sounds a bit like Osama, so are you going to blame 9//1 on the American President currently in office? I think not. It's not convincing.
but I'll see if I can get something more convincing. You do that.
In Hebrew, the word simply means a tree that is worshipped as an idol. Any divine connotation comes from the context of its usage. However, the general usage of the word in the Bible is that it is non-referential, and so there is no reference to any divinity called Asherah at all. This is debateable. Mark Smith in The Early History of God spends quite a lot of time discussing the issue. IIRC he comes down on the side that the references are to the asherah pole rather than to the goddess herself, yet it seems hard to avoid the conclusion that the asherah pole was connected with the goddess Asherah (who had a variety of names)
I can understand Mark Smith's description of an Asherah in the Canaanite religion might have been to the worship of a goddess using a traditional form of worship such as a May-Pole, which was originally a form of fertility worship, and the Maypole dancing of olde England was a fertility rite of Spring. If this was the common form of worship of the goddess then it might fit, or that he is assuming that the use of a tree as an image of worship was much like ancient Britain, then it still makes sense that he came to this conclusion. It just doesn't seem to fit the Hebrew text, not from what I've read.
I get very worried when you call Canaanite beliefs "a cult". The only times I've heard anyone refer to a cult, was things that everyone believed were complete BS, and that represented a factious minority that brainwashed its members. I use the term in a more traditional sense rather than the more modern pejorative sense. Sorry for the confusion. But that doesn't mean I don't think it's all complete BS
That suggests to me that you don't have any belief that the claims about Asherah are even valid, and that the polemic is not only justified, but based in reality. That's inconsistent with your views. Did you mean to say religion? I suppose you could equate my use of the term cult with religion. What I was going for was the religious rituals and beliefs specific to Asherah, rather than the Canaanite religion as a whole. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:52:45 PM | Being that the Canaanites were named for Noah Grandson I am sure they would have the same genral Dogma as his other grandsons Egypt, Cush, and Miz-Ram. This is not a new thing. Midion was Abrahams son so why is it surprizing that his kids would use YHW to refer to God?
In other words what does Asherah have to link her to Eve? I always was taught she and her husband were decendants of Noah's Ham and his wife the Nicoltin. A race so god like that people called them the sons of God. If so her story came much later than Eve's. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/22/2009 1:02:58 PM |
I also think the people who took the daughters of man to wife as many as they wanted were those kids although they are called the sons of God in the KJV of the Bible. Who do you think they were?
There are more than three groups who include Adam and Eve. The KJV is probably the least accurate translation currently in use, however when is says 'son's of god' its reffering to the children of god that we know call angels. While there's only a brief mention of this in gen, the first book of Enoch expounds on this, as well as jude. | |
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| Adam and Eve
Posted: 11/22/2009 9:15:53 PM | Have you read the description of angels? I'd never have a baby by one of them PAINFUL. 
In Gen. it said Adam had children other than Cain and Seth nowhere does it say they had no kids when they got booted out of Eden | |
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