| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:29:49 AM | Apologies to mods if I missed a similar thread in my search.
Do we choose our religious/spiritual beliefs? Is what we believe made by free will or does something just click that isn't part of our conscious thought?
Let me give an example: If due to a recent bereavement it becomes apparent that someone's beliefs give them comfort and strength and allows them to make their own sense out of a tragic situation, then a couple of family members say they wish they had those beliefs to support them but they just don't and they're struggling my questioning is ....
Do we choose to believe?
Can we choose to believe for the comfort even if we don't?
Can we change our mind if it helps us?
If so why can't all people do that in times of trauma?
Let me clarify, this is not about what belief system is right, wrong, a load of gobbledegook, the question is ... is it our 'choice'?
Discuss. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:38:56 AM | | Everything we do in life is a choice, I'm not really believing there is some devine being watching over us. We choose what to believe in, and my faith is in evolution. When my mum died, I found comfort in my sisters rather than a devine faith. Belief comes in many forms, not just in the religious sense. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:56:55 AM | I think we do choose to believe, or not I'm very pleased to say is the case for myself
but I guess for some people their family and friends make it difficult for them to make the choice for themselves. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:00:17 AM | | my own theory is im not a believer but talking to people that are i tend to find that something in their lives has triggered the escapism that believing in something brings. Alot of people also fall into religion as transference from something that has damaged their lives, like drink and drugs. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:40:18 AM | yes and no .... if you are a non believer and choose to believe for whatever reason then it is a simple matter of choice
but there are quite literally billions of believers out there who have been conditioned to believe .... there's little choice in the matter then .... it's the cornerstone of all religions ... | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:44:02 AM |
Do we choose to believe?
Some people choose to believe whereas some people are easily led by stereotypical beliefs borne out of childhood brain-washing (i.e. "if you are bad you will never go to Heaven") as opposed to challenging their own.
Can we choose to believe for the comfort even if we don't?
Yes. In my every day life I turn to my own true inner voice to guide me. When I found myself in a time of emotional turmoil which made it too difficult for me to choose my higher self to help me, at that moment I chose God as being the universal oneness which binds us all to help me.
Can we change our mind if it helps us?
Yes. People shouldn't feel guilty about taking comfort in whatever way they can, whether they turn to family or friends or whether as non-believers they become believers in some sort of philosophy like the twelve steps, Buddhism, God, etc.
If so why can't all people do that in times of trauma?
Guilt? If they have firm embedded beliefs they feel they are betraying themselves. However, I believe in times of trauma a lot of non-believers do pray for help in some form or the other. The death of a loved one often causes those left behind to question their beliefs around religion/spirituality. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:45:38 AM |
Do we choose to believe?
Can we choose to believe for the comfort even if we don't?
Can we change our mind if it helps us?
If so why can't all people do that in times of trauma?
In the context of bereavement..those are interesting questions.
If someone has strong beliefs in something other than religious or spiritual faith, I would think that they should stick to those beliefs to remain true to themselves, after all it's not something people decide lightly.
Taking off the non-believer hat for the period they are grieving for just to derive a little comfort from the belief the person they are grieving for has gone to a better place doesn't seem like it would be of any use imo i.e. if you don't believe what is the point of pretending you do believe for an interim period?
Also, given that it was a conscious decision of the non-believer to come to the conclusion that God or something just as great doesn't exist they really shouldn't complain if someone else's beliefs help them through their bereavement - why should you feel bad if they're claiming that you are having an easier time of it - coping with bereavement is an individual thing anyway. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:57:31 AM |
my own theory is im not a believer but talking to people that are i tend to find that something in their lives has triggered the escapism that believing in something brings. Alot of people also fall into religion as transference from something that has damaged their lives, like drink and drugs.
Rather sweeping, do you not think that people may believe due to their own understanding that something is out there far superior to us. Therefore begs the question, if not, why is everything ( except what we touch) just perfect ?
Maybe just maybe you have only thought along religous lines from old books written by control freaks. Try thinking on a different level, from within, not what you were taught.
no offence like !
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 7:12:47 AM | Alot of people also fall into religion as transference from something that has damaged their lives, like drink and drugs
I don't think the use of a lot is accurate where addictions are concerned, if you were to say a minority I would be more inclined to agree with you
I know many people who are in the process of sorting their lives out from drug addiction/alcoholism/gambling/other addictions, and many take a spiritual and not religious journey  | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 7:40:41 AM | Taking off the non-believer hat for the period they are grieving for just to derive a little comfort from the belief the person they are grieving for has gone to a better place doesn't seem like it would be of any use imo i.e. if you don't believe what is the point of pretending you do believe for an interim period?
I think it depends on how rigidly you hold your beliefs around religion/spirituality as to whether you can derive comfort from taking your non-believer hat off. That may sound a bit "wishy washy" to those who hold on to their beliefs like a heavy armour which can also make for the heaviest sword!! Every day I try and approach life with an open way of thinking. That means I am open to having my beliefs pulled from under me ! Being flexible with my beliefs means they evolve as I evolve. I can think of no more profound time for a person's beliefs to be called into question when on the brink of death or when facing someone else's and can be of immense use to them if they are able to see that not as an act of betrayal should they go against those beliefs which they held true but recognising that when we are feeling traumatised as well as feeling powerless, some people will find it comforting to pray for a higher power and their truth may be changed in that moment or not. What's wrong with that? | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 7:55:37 AM |
Do we choose to believe?
Everyone choose's to 'disbelieve' certain things so I can't see why the opposite can't be applied as a choice similarly??
Can we choose to believe for the comfort even if we don't?
I think you can come to believe when all other options are exhausted or futile to gain comfort.
If so why can't all people do that in times of trauma?
Some of us can deal with reality and trauma's much better than others who may need to be told that if they leave the lights on at night it will keep the bogeyman out !!
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 8:20:47 AM | Do we choose to believe?
Yes, it is choice to believe. We normally require proof and a certainty before we place such faith in something so meaningful but to those that believe they do so because they chose too.
Can we choose to believe for the comfort even if we don't?
You either choose to believe or not and don't see faith as something you can switch on or off like a tap. Saying that you can solace in a religion and may even end up believing and a lot of people find religion when they are lost.
Can we change our mind if it helps us?
You can go from atheist to believer but religion isn't a crutch for when we are low and when we pick ourselves up we can disregard till the next we need it. Religion is more than a mindset.
If so why can't all people do that in times of trauma?
It is easy to be religious when you have nothing else but it is harder to make time for your believes when things are good. I don't go to church, I am very much a lapsed Catholic and not really sure what I believe if I am honest so tend not to think about it. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 10:27:05 AM | Some really good valid points from both sides of the discussion.
As I originally stated, this isn't about whether to believe or not to believe in whatever religion or belief, this is about whether it's choice or not.
So to originally 'choose' a belief might be upbringing or it might not, it might be through needing a crutch from trauma, drugs etc or it might not, but how about that it might be from experiences and your interpretation of them? Does this make it choice? I wonder.
Sadly it's not uncommon for lapsed Catholics to struggle with their faith in times when they most need it, while I'm not Catholic my family background is and many's the nun in my extended family who has rejected her faith in her last desperate few months. So where does choice come into that? It seems to me the most incredibly sad thing when the time you need it most is when it fails you. Similarly when you lose a child or spouse, surely this is the time when you would 'choose' to have your faith support you, if it is indeed a 'choice'. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 10:31:50 AM | 'SwanSpirit'..//Can we choose to believe for the comfort even if we don't//
...I couldn't for the simply fact that I would be unable to willingly shut out certain truths. I would be betraying my own intelligence.
If I have a very small child.. I may very well tell them that their dead rabbit has gone to 'rabbit heaven' because it would soften the upset and let them move on quickly...
Sadly (The days of only worrying about tearing the knees out of my trousers are gone), I am not a small child who doesn't give things much focused thought.
I couldn't convince myself that Santa Clause existed.... If somebody tried to convince me that Santa Clause really does know which boys and girls have been good or bad and he really does fly about on magical reindeer, I wouldn't accept it blindly... I would ask a few questions. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 11:05:03 AM | Doesn't 'belief' come from within?
Our body tells us what our true feelings are about anything regardless of any evidence to the contrary, whether it is concerning a song, a woman, politics, or the weekend's football results.
I don't believe I can convince myself of anything...... | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 1:04:42 PM |
Maybe just maybe you have only thought along religous lines from old books written by control freaks. Try thinking on a different level, from within, not what you were taught.
This statement describes exactly what happened to me. Brought up in a very religious family, I was schooled in religion by my Grandmother, parents, and our church. Problem was they didn't teach how to believe. By my mid teens I was already seeing the church as a politically driven money making organization that did exactly that, used books written by control freaks.
When I started making decent money working part time I was basically told that my measure of faith was measured by what I placed on the collection plate. That was when I stopped believing in religion. Now don't get me wrong, I did believe in god but it was not by choice. I knew there was a God but deep inside I did have doubts.
Years later I remember well the night I was talked into driving 60 miles right after work to go and listen to a traveling preacher from the United States. I was in my early twenties and was skeptical walking into that auditorium that night. Out onto the stage walked a young man not too much older than I. It was not long into the evening that I felt something inside me starting to change. Using only his own words and his music, he allowed me to choose how I truly felt about God and Jesus. That night I chose to truly believe and that feeling has been with me ever since. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 1:20:21 PM | My mum had religion drummed into her when she was young and she didn't want it to be that way for myself and my brother.
We were informed of the choices when old enough and then left to choose ourselves.
My brother chose to go to Sunday school when he was about 7 and was violently sick every time he went..I think it put him off going!
I remember knowing the choices I had from a very young age and I made my choice quite young too.
I'm not in the least bit religious and I can't see that changing. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 1:59:47 PM | | Yes belief is a choice unless it is something instilled in you whilst growing up.But then again,you can have a belief instilled into you but then when older,choose to question it and then decide for yourself whether to continue with that belief or not.I never had my 2 children christened for the simple reason i considered it was for them when they were older to make the choice for themselves whether they wanted to follow,believe or be a christian.We are at liberty to change our minds because something happens to maybe make us suddenly question or feel comfort by doing so.Not all people can do so in times of trauma because they may feel anger at what has happened. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 2:21:10 PM | But isn't belief a connection in your heart? A connection to something greater than you be it an organised religion, a 'God', an entity, a way of being? Our inner belief system works separately from our consciousness, filtered by the conscious critical faculty, we have very little say to what connections go on in our inner belief system, so my query is where does religious/spiritual belief come in there? Our inner belief system is something we do not have conscious control over as it's part of our subconscious, and yet our spiritual beliefs are definately part of that. So therefore where is the choice?
And I still harp back to if a bereaved parent wishes for understanding through a belief what is stopping them believing? | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 2:28:47 PM | Grief, pain and anger is what is stopping them believing swanspirit.Maybe once the pain and anger subside maybe then comes a better understanding enough for them to believe and gain comfort from it.
I had a very strong belief at one time.After several traumatic things in my life, my belief was rocked to it,s very foundations.It created in me a mental block which to this day i still cant get past. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 2:32:58 PM |
My mum had religion drummed into her when she was young and she didn't want it to be that way for myself and my brother.
Exactly the same with my family. I don't believe in God or any kind of religion and no matter what has happened to me in my life that has never changed.
I can't understand why people who are non religious would suddenly take comfort in something they didn't believe in to get them through hard times. I don't see religion as a short term fix but I'm sure some people see their faith in that way ie they will choose to believe as and when it suits.
While other people are steeped in it. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 2:50:29 PM |
But isn't belief a connection in your heart? A connection to something greater than you be it an organised religion, a 'God', an entity, a way of being?
Why that question, I'm not sure what you are getting at...
Our inner belief system works separately from our consciousness, filtered by the conscious critical faculty, we have very little say to what connections go on in our inner belief system, so my query is where does religious/spiritual belief come in there?
I've heard people speak of their great faith, their complete trust in something they have no real proof of but total belief that there is a greater 'entity'/force than humanity could ever understand.
I watched a documentary the other night on The Heaven's Gate cult, their members and Leaders Ti and Do, it was quite remarkable how enraptured they all were by their particular faith which to anybody normal (apparently they used to be before they met with Ti and Do too) seems utterly crazy and it was crazy because they were all waiting for a UFO to come along and rescue them from Earth. They called their bodies 'vehicles' and thought Ti and Do were the reincarnation of Jesus and God the father....
All said they felt a deep connection to Ti...
I dunno, I'd prefer to be a bit more cynical myself and question everything than fall for manipulative baloney - I still respect people's faith though, because people should do what makes them happy - it's just a shame those who pursue most spiritual things get taken advantage of by leaders who are only in it for the money and power.
Our inner belief system is something we do not have conscious control over as it's part of our subconscious, and yet our spiritual beliefs are definately part of that. So therefore where is the choice?
I'm quite sure that my inner belief system is of my own making ...I don't believe what I believe blindly for the most part, my beliefs have been honed from real life experiences which happened to me. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 2:55:42 PM | Look at all faiths threw the eyes of a child. No matter what faith the parents are , the child looks extremly bored and is nearly always uncompliant. So faith is something that grown ups choose to adhere too if they so choose.
I personnaly find faith in a god ludicrous but, hey each to their own.
Here is a good documentary about how ridiculous faith is.
http://movshare.net/video/2u3be2ookidcg# | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:00:52 PM | I can't force myself to believe that moon is made of cheese, no matter how hard I try. And believe me, I do. I love cheese very much and spend many hours imagining a delicious satellite composed of emmental, brie and jarlsberg.
But I can't. I still believe it's just a big rock.
I would love to believe in God and angels too.
I still believe I'll win the lottery, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. There's more chance of me meeting God than there is of me winning the lottery. Maybe. | |
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| Is belief a choice?
Posted: 9/15/2009 3:15:23 PM | See ... there ya go ....
Bresker
You would love to believe but you don't, you can't, so where is the choice in that? | |
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