| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:13:58 AM | A friend sent me a link to a story about a school programme in Kent, whereby kids are raising a variety of animals, including a sheep. The kids hand raised the sheep from a lamb, named him Marcus, and when he was grown they sent him to the slaughterhouse. The kids voted to do this...a 14-member group of children aged 6 to 11, voted 13-1 to have him killed.
But the adults weren't happy...
The decision has provoked fury among animal-loving celebrities, animal and human rights campaigners and the parents of some of the children, and led to threats against Lydd primary school and its teachers, according to a member of staff.
and
But opponents branded it heartless and cruel, with animal rights campaigners asking why Marcus could not have been used to teach the children about wool, and human rights campaigners worried about the emotional impact of Marcus's death on the children.
A popular talkshow host offered to buy the lamb and give it sanctuary and Facebook groups sprung up to rally support to keep Marcus alive. But the children had the final say. The school defended the children's decision, calling it educational.
So how do people here view this kind of thing? Good for kids? Bad for kids?
Should kids younger than 11 only know lambs as cute story book characters and be let believe sheep all live to a ripe old age in a daisy strewn field? Or at the other end of the scale, should they perhaps have gone along to the slaughterhouse and watched the ultimate culmination of their vote to complete their education on animal husbandry? Any comments on the long term results of either approach? I am curious about what people think is most appropriate to teach kids about this sort of reality?
Full story for those interested
http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/odd/6033260/kids-send-marcus-the-lamb-to-slaughter/ | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/15/2009 8:22:44 AM | This sort of hands-on, real-life learning experience is terrific for children because it gives city kids a bit of a chance to see what life is like for their country counterparts. It also gets them out of the classroom which can be good for them, especially the less academic ones.
I do however think that the excersise becomes rather pointless if the children are not given the opportunity to see the consequences of their decisions and actions. Learning to take responsibility for ones own actions is possibly one of the biggest lessons in life. I wonder what how the vote tally would have come in if they knew that they would have to see Marcus slaughtered. I don’t think the children are necessarily too young to see what happens to animals raised for the dinner table, after all children growing up on farms see it all the time.
I think the ‘storybook character’ option will have little long term effect on the children’s thinking and view on life…apart from perhaps making them good politicians with the ability to let others carry out their dirty work. Allowing them to go along to the slaughterhouse on the other hand could have quite a profound effect on them and at the least it would give them some more respect for animal that died for their dinner.
It’s probably obvious that I’m opposed to cruel farming practices. I’ve brought my kids up to have an awareness of the cruel practices that go on in most of the meat and poultry industries, and as a result 3 of the 4 of them have chosen not to eat meat, and all have strong convictions about animal cruelty. I think all children, perhaps not as young as eleven, should be given the opportunity to see first hand how cruel and unhealthy some of our full-scale meat and poultry producing farms can be. This may well speed up the shift towards more humane and healthy farming practices.
But having said all that…
and human rights campaigners worried about the emotional impact of Marcus's death on the children.
I think the media attention is far more likely to have an emotional impact on the kids. | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/15/2009 11:21:59 AM | The kids voted to do this...a 14-member group of children aged 6 to 11, voted 13-1 to have him killed.
My first thought.. was this... why was slaughtering marcus an option?... money?.... what?.. no space for marcus?
Firstly.. a 6 year old .. should not of been given an option of voting to take life...
whoever the adults are.... I shake my head...
at being a teaching authority over 6 year old development...
these kids can't even get in legally to see a horror movie.. they under age.. of 15 plus..
society..... judges a..... childs development.. pysche.. in being influenced...
effected by.. words/scenes/images..etc..
The intention had been to buy pigs with the money raised from slaughtering Marcus, but those plans have been put on hold following the furor created by the lamb's culling. The school said the program may now have to be stopped.
so was for money..... with the enticement of buying more animals..
WHOEVER... gave the children this option?..... they were 6... years old...the least..
A popular talkshow host offered to buy the lamb and give it sanctuary and Facebook groups sprung up to rally support to keep Marcus alive. But the children had the final say. The school defended the children's decision, calling it educational.
The teachers response to..... someone offering to buy/keep marcus.. .
because that option came after children were given.. a life/death option?.
were the kids in the first instance.. given a choice to rehome marcus? sell him to someone?
At first when I read this.. I was thinking the kids all got a piece of marcus to take home and eat?...... no..
so basically marcus.. although hand reared.. had no impact on these children... they chose death.. (should never have been given this option).... without.. folllowing the outcome.. ie for food... there's a lesson... yes if you want to eat meat.. this is how it works..
where/what was the lesson?..... an animal.. life means nothing.. (cause adults did'nt teach the kids to sell marcus to a good home?... )
and these kids will be voting on juries.. in years to come...
guess the death penalty.. would come easy hey...
cause they learn't young....
as for taking them to a slaughter house..... hmmm.. at the very least.. did they know.. intellectually/emotionally what their decision .. impact was?
would we show a 6 year old video footage of a slaughterhouse.. before they made their decision.. so it was an informed decision?
at the very least.. high svhool children.. .. might handle/learn from this process.. but there seems to be no critical or latteral thinking here..
I think not... 6 is far to young.. ...to show graphic footage to..
If a parent wants to do that to their kid.. at home.. their the adult...
parents who are vego... cool.. don't feed your child meat.. and when they are old enough to mentally handle info.. ok cool...
but most children I know who are vego.. never question it.. they just eat what they are given.... if they did at a teenage age want to choose meat.. maybe then show them.. the process..
but if they already don't eat meat.. at 6.. why do they need graphic scenes..
but if my child was forced to see that.. slaughter house etc.. then id be kicking arses..
As Julian points out.. kids see stuff on farms... ... but.. its a whole lifestyle on a farm...
ie.. they grow up surrounded by death.. ie new born animals die etc...
they eat it.. ie.. take life for food... the kids don't see mum/dad run out and kill every fooking animal they own in 1 day.. like a slaughter house..
im not sure how many farmers go out of their way to kill a sheep/pig.. in front of their 6 year olds though..
I wouldn't take a 6 year old to a slaughter house..
I know farm people... had to kill chooks for the family dinner young.. older people as well..
It did'nt stop them eating meat... but they did stop killing them.
and yep they are aware.. they let someone do the dirty work..
I've seen animals killed.... at 8.. I don't think I connected the headless chooks running around... as what we given as food....
but older.... anything that was killed.. and put in front of me.. I had trouble eating....
did'nt want to offend the people.. but.. I sorta just pushed it around my plate..
plus it tastes bad.. ie different to slaughtered meat...
I eat meat.. ... And yes I'm aware.. if I had to kill for meat.. I don't know.. If I could..
It would depend on how starving I was.. .. we get to choose food.. because we live in a society of having alot.. but .. I don't kid myself.. If I was starving.. Id probably eat anything......Ive seen the video alive.. why would I be any different to human nature?.. Id like to think i would'nt.. be I can't think Im more evolved than anyone else.. in that situation..I'm not..
... I prefer.. to make adult decisions for 6 year olds... not them make adult decisions.... they are children.. and innocence used to belong to children.. now they just get filled with all sorts of crap.. too young.....
It should never of been an option...or choice..
maybe they will get to vote what happens to their teachers.. parents next...
peace | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/15/2009 5:56:09 PM | Have to agree with Soulmate. What's the next "school project" going to be? Homeless people get what they deserve? Labour Party governments are better than Liberals so long as we're all capitalists?
Politically culturing primary schoolers is some real old school stuff, no different from shoving the Bible down their throats with the cane. Instructing an economic system as a political following is questionable at best, it cannot be guaranteed that capitalism will continue as a basic premise of democratic government in the years to come. A far more intelligent exercise would have been an academic project to examine the various alternative means of forming a viable economy whilst retaining a democratic administration.
That's not to say animal slaughter cannot be the basis of effective schooling, but on a very specific case basis. The kind of example I'm thinking about is in military cadet survival training, I've heard of one barracks which during a 5-day bivouac taught mid-teens to slaughter and prepare a live chook for a meal. The quite genuine and serious purpose however, signified by a parent release form was actual bush survival training of its harshest nature, which also included all other elements of surviving the Australian wilderness if lost with nothing more than a campers pack and a hundred kilometres or more to traverse to find civilisation. If anything some of the cadets might come out of it as vegetarians.
But this is nothing at all like teaching children 6-11 to in fact take no responsibility at all for their decisions, and reward them for the attitude that other living things are placed onto this Earth for the sole purpose of providing for them like little Emperors.
Without placing the bolt gun and blades in their hands and instructing them to do the deed, the lesson about slaughter for money isn't really taught now is it?
And is that a reasonable lesson for the 21st Century in the first place?
This was plainly some old school political culturing for the Nationalist Party and on this basis I take extreme exception to it and would consider pulling a child under my care from the school. These are not the values I would have taught and marked. | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:08:47 PM |
Around 250 children at the school take part in a program designed to teach them about rearing and breeding animals If the children were learning about farming animals and how farmers make money from the exercise its obvious why the sheep was sent to slaughter. Farming isn't just raising and caring for the animal. It ends up getting eaten. How educational is it to be studying the farming industry and sell 100% of your stock to a celebrity?
The question about why wasn't the sheep kept and used to learn about wool could probably best be answered if we knew what breed it was. If its a breed designed for meat, it probably doesn't have quality wool and it would be ridiculous in a farming sense to keep it for wool.
When I was a kid growing up on the farm, Dad periodically killed a sheep for the freezer. (Never the pet ones) Since I followed him round all the time, I was there when it was caught but he always managed to find me something else to do when the ultimate moment came. At six I knew what sheep were like alive and I'd seen the process of skinning the carcase and making it into chops. I'd poked all the gizzards with a stick and found out what a heart and kidneys looked like.
Unless we are prepared to go completely vegetarian as a society its appropriate that kids learn about farming. The real story. | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/15/2009 6:39:02 PM | what ARE they teaching kids at school...
meat as we all know comes from supermarket deli's, not from sheep.
but seriously if they are goin to teach kids "the real story", and unveal the truth (bad cow pun)
then they should watch the entire event.. learn about bolt guns or is it a knife. . | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 1:51:34 AM | Well.. Im going to have to get back to this thread.. it really has effected me deeply....As you can see from my previous posting.. acting emotionally....
usually i'll ask more questions.. try and get an accurate view... from all sides.. and try and stay unbiased..(especially with 1 media story.. and usually i go at least 3 different sources before I even start to form an opinion..
I did'nt achieve that here... and I apologise...
and quite frankly..my heart/mind /soul are jumbled...(im stuck on 6 year olds.. being asked to make adult decisions.. as oppossed to older kids.. maybe having cognitive ability.. etc).. quite frankly.. im not seeing farming.. im not seeing anything but 6 year olds.. who arent farmers.. ... who are our future..
I just want to protect them... maybe they could run a farm.. when theyre older?... not at 6...?....... this is why when the large.. yes large statistics of kids killing.. under the age of 15.. usually can't be held as an adult... because they are not considered able to make cognitive choices/decisions...
and seeing a society of kids becoming... desensitised to empathy/compassion.. latteral choices.. individual cases/decisions etc..
I posted my earlier thread at like 4am.. (plus edit).. and I made a couple of worded errors in meaning..context... i apologise..
Im really tired now... Ill get back to it...
I try and see things from many sides.. I do.. truly...
im just so sad.. adults asked 6 year olds to decide the fate of a living being..
and yep.. i dont know the follow through.. re whether they learnt hes food etc..
too many unanswered questions.. i didn't and don't know...
in the bush... kids see injured.. animal..(cause animlas die in nature..) we try and teach them to see its hurt.. (at age 6 and all ages)... try and see if they can recognise hurt inothers.. show compassion/empathy.. ie keep animal quiet/safe box.. etc.. then teach them to call for appropriate help.. if we don't know what to do..
like wires.. expert in snakes or birds etc... eg..
i would never ask a 6 year old to decide.. whether it should be given a chance to live or should we just kill it?
im the adult.. a perfect world no animal would suffer.. for food or any reason..
anyhoo.
forgive me.. ill try get back to..... a neutral position..
im not there yet..
im just seeing kids being asked to decide..something theyre brain/emotions isn't equipped for.. and.. to be desentised to taking life....
and seriously.. im starting to see vaguely a few focussed on the farm thing....
im focussng on things like farmers in india.. sold crap seed .. meaning it needs more water.... and there is a drought..... so theyre in debt.. and creditors are coming ..taking their.wives..kids and they are being put into prostitution...
thats also the farmers who are not suiciding..
it hurts me.. to see this suffering..
kids.. should be bloody kids..
not mini adults.. not being asked to grow up to soon..
i know a boy .. had to kill real chooks from age 10.. he hates his dad for it..
yes he eats chook.. but won't kill em..
dad made him a man..
i know .. no farmer who takes a 6 year old out on the farm and says.. ok you choose which animal;s..live or die...
kids are not adults..
kids are not farmers...
peace | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 2:44:24 AM | What a crock of shite!
In my opinion, if a group of kids were considered too young to witness the slaughter of an animal, as a direct result of their decision (and I believe they were too young), then they were too young to ever be allowed to even make the decision in the first place.
In theory, I think the project could have been a great idea for much older children and could have taught them heaps. Having had a couple of 6 year olds myself in times gone by, I can almost guarantee that the only thought on those childrens minds was that if they got rid of the not so cute and cuddly anymore sheep, then they would be able to get some cute, pink piglets to play with.
So as far as I can see, the only thing they will have learnt from this project is that animals are disposable. More then enough adults think this way already, hence our overcrowded animal shelters where pets are dumped to make way for younger, cuter, funner versions.
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 2:52:18 AM | Democracy in action?... a 13-1 vote to off the lamb is pretty convincing as to the wishes of the kids....
did peer group pressure take any part in the vote?... I wonder...
maybe the kids realised lambs were lambs and not story tale characters to be endeared.
I can still remember Dad chopping off a chooks head then watching it run around...
and then the cleaning process... the olds didn't seemed phased by the act of killing chooks for food... we kids fed and raised them .....to be eaten eventually.... that seemed to be the arrangement....
I can still remember the look Mum gave me..."geez ! what are ya!,".. before she laughed.. when I told her I'd never be keen to kill one of my then chooks , gut it and clean it for cooking, ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
.... when I could get a ready cooked chook in town .... ...I collect any eggs , but kinda like my chooks,,,,and the work they do around the yard...
she told me how she and her twin sister had the job of cleaning the chooks for the table after their dad did the chop job..... at 10 or so.... in the bay suburbs.. not the bush,,,
quite normal to that era of kids ,I suppose... knowing the full story "paddock to stomach"....
kids at most rural schools , from properties etc, see that kind of stuff all their lives..... they know full well the "ends" for their stock .. and the ones kept for the "house" for tucker.....
a bit confronting for city kids ,I suppose... those milk from bottles in supermarket types...
COWS!!!... you're kidding... MILK comes from cows .. ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww..... yukkkk....
when is a good time to burst the bubble?.... | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 2:59:18 AM | This is not about a petting zoo or a hobby farm but for all intents and purposes a miniature free range farm and as such the animals are not pets but livestock. Those that are farmed for slaughter should automatically be sent to slaughter when they reach the normal age, weight or whatever, at which they would be sent if they were raised on any other farm.
There is absolutely no indication in this news item that this sheep has been treated with anything but the utmost care and consideration. Presumable Markus was sent to an abattoir that was known to go about its business in a humane and respectful manner.
The only problem that I can see with all this is in asking the children to decide Markus fate, Markus’s fate should have been know and certain the day he was brought onto the farm; he was not a pet, he was livestock and now his is delicious cruelty free, free range lamb chops, what more could anyone ask.
I suspect that the children did not actual vote to send Markus to the abattoir but rather, from their perspective, voted to get a pig that will no doubt in the fullness of time end up as delicious cruelty free, free range bacon products.
The only voting that the children should have been involved in was asking them if they wanted to replace Markus whose appointed time had come with a pig, a goat or perhaps another lamb who in the fullness of time would follow Markus to the dinner table.
As for the activists and celebrities well there concern is a self evidently transparent attempt to draw attention to themselves and their concerns and has nothing to do with saving Markus which could have been easily done quietly with a truck and a cheque book; offer any working farm twice what they could normally sell an animal for and they will lift it onto your truck for you. I suspect that what they offered to pay was no more than the school would have been paid by the abattoir confirming that Markus was in fact no different or more important than any other sheep. What the school should have done once these people started to exploit this situation for their own publicity was to auction Markus to the highest bidder another important lesson in life; there is one born every day.
I think given the life that a sheep can end up having Markus did pretty well, ok he didn’t end up a pet on a hobby farm, happy and gay with a perpetual grin, but nor did he end up taking a long boat ride to the middle east where the end of his live might very well have made the beginning look like a blessing not worth having.
Concerns that go to the welfare of animals are important and should engage our moral sentiments but sentimentality and sensationalism of this kind is not likely to be helpful in persuading people to consider the great and serious plight of countless animals that a fortunate sheep like Markus never knew. | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 4:10:14 AM | On a farm kids learn the facts of life in a matter of fact sort of way.
A lot depends on how the vote was presented to the children. Was it designed to show the practicalities of farming or was it designed to emfisize the kill or not kill decision.
Personally I cant come at fishing because having to take the fish off the hook doesnt appeal, how ever I have no problem gettting my fish n chips from the shop.
Im left wondering who may have needed counciling the most after their traumatic experience the kids or the parents?  | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 4:18:44 AM | "killing stuff" is a pretty abstract concept to kids used to "killing stuff" on PC games for years....
kinda 2D reality..... without the gooey 3D sight and sound reality of "real" killing....
I guess this school is trying to connect the kids with the true process of farming animals for food..... with the inevidible consequences..... for the baa baa.... the moo moo, and the oink oink....
bringing the stuff of legends and tales.. to the dinner table.... 101.... | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 4:26:33 AM |
Unless we are prepared to go completely vegetarian as a society its appropriate that kids learn about farming. The real story.
I agree. But I am left wondering if they were? I'm just not sure about this one.
I do however think that the excersise becomes rather pointless if the children are not given the opportunity to see the consequences of their decisions and actions. Learning to take responsibility for ones own actions is possibly one of the biggest lessons in life. In one respect I agree, that if the school felt it appropriate to take the moral stance of "real life education", then it seems odd to censor that last bit...the result. And yet on the other hand, the thought of a 6 year old experiencing the sights and sounds of a slaughterhouse is still ...kind of...a bit much. And I don't even have kids, so my perspective is not of the motherly-instinct-to-keep-my-child-in-a-bubble kind, but more along the lines of a member of society who nonetheless has to live amongst these kids/future adults that other people are raising, and yet...it still seems...a bit much. Could it possibly, if they are too young and not possessed of sufficient emotional intelligence, have the opposite effect and cause them to become even more blase, even more immune to the notion of slaughterhouses? Or to decreeing life and death generally? Hitler trained 'em young because littlies are more easily accepting of things that older kids already recognise as not being quite right, and I don't think we need any more people out there who are living with some sort of egocentric mindset that prohibits any sort of empathy for other living creatures. Although, as with anything, I guess it depends on how the adult approaches it, and steers the 'educational experience'.
And yes...
At first when I read this.. I was thinking the kids all got a piece of marcus to take home and eat?.. ...me too. And that I would moreso understand. The cycle of life...birth and death and all the good, bad and ugly in between. Because, as others have said, here the outcome was simply going to be, Marcus (who isn't a cute lamb anymore) is driven away only to be replaced by 2 cute piglets. Yay. Like trading one toy for a better one. Did they really understand the consequence of their choice? Did they really understand what Marcus went on to experience as a result? If they did...OK...but if they didn't, then it wasn't a real experience of making a grown-up decision, and it wasn't the real life educational experience that the school is making out. I'm all for educational programmes where kids get to experience farming, but somehow, this programme seems to miss the mark or something.
To my way of thinking, Dime's experience
At six I knew what sheep were like alive and I'd seen the process of skinning the carcase and making it into chops. I'd poked all the gizzards with a stick and found out what a heart and kidneys looked like. was far more educational. And also this
(Never the pet ones) Dime you were taught the quality of mercy, alongside the reality of where food comes from. I am wondering if these kids were inadvertently only taught how to be callous and materialistic?
When I was about 10yo I was allowed to get a bunch of chicks to add to my backyard collection. The deal Dad struck with me was... I could spoil them as chicks, and I could keep any that turned out to be hens...but the roosters would have their heads removed and be eaten. This required my solemn agreement before he took me to get the chicks, and I did spend a few days considering the deal before agreeing. In return Dad had to give me his solemn agreement that he would make it as quick as possible for them, and that he would never cast his hungry gaze at my girls. Three of the six turned out to be boys, but one had badly injured his leg as a young thing and always walked with a limp and never quite grew like the others...the runt of my brood, and quite the pet. So he was spared...mercy, but also possibly an awareness that eating a bird that isn't of optimum health is not sensible. Two very good lessons there.
So when the other 2 betrayed their gender with the beginnings of crowing, the time had arrived. I chose to stay in my room, although after the deed was done I did see the bodies hanging from the clothesline being bled. My brothers had watched, and there was none of that jeering about headless chooks etc. because it wasn't some "yaaagh we're big humans and they're just stupid chooks and we can laugh at them before we eat them" about any of it. My Dad was respectful and taught us to be. So I gave them the best life I could, and Dad gave them the lease worst death he could. My parents said I didn't have to eat the chicken if I didn't want to, but I chose to. I understood.
The other thing that struck me about this whole Marcus thing was...was the one child (the one who voted to save Marcus) ...OK? Imagine wanting to save a creature, and being surrounded by others saying nah kill it, and it gets killed...that's a significant experience, and that would be the child I'd be most concerned for. | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 4:46:31 AM | Yeh, that was one of my thoughts too... about the feelings of the one who voted for life for Marcus.... against the dozen others.... was it a younger or older member of the group for one..?... a strong member or a quieter member...
the one didn't have too many followers in this case....
one would hope that it was explained to the kids that ones who voted a principle down in a democratic vote shouldn't be seen as an enemy or detractor to the group....
only expressing their option to vote in a fair way ...without later condemnation by the majority of voters...
it's never easy being the odd kid out.... or the odd adult out..for that matter.... | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 5:12:50 AM | one would hope that it was explained to the kids that ones who voted a principle down in a democratic vote shouldn't be seen as an enemy or detractor to the group....
only expressing their option to vote in a fair way ...without later condemnation by the majority of voters...
It's funny how we spot different concerns. I can see your point, but I was moreso thinking about the potential feelings of...having let Marcus down...of failure...of being alone in a heartless world...of betrayal on the part of peers...and of contending with loss...rather than any fear of being a social outcast. If this one child had bonded with Marcus and then his/her friends sold Marcus to his death...that's a significant experience, doncha think? And if s/he feels strongly enough potentially s/he might be the one rejecting the thirteen other kids, not the other way around cos not everyone places social popularity above affection for an animal, and this child might have been one of them perhaps.
My viewpoint just comes from my own experience...just projecting a bit without knowing for sure. I confess to having had nightmares well into adulthood because my parents made me give up my chickens when we moved towns. I loved those chooks, and I felt that separation as loss. Some children don't see animals as toys that can be replaced with new 'toys', and this kid possibly now has to deal with the loss of an animal s/he cared for, at the hands of those others. | |
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| Lamb to the slaughter
Posted: 9/16/2009 5:28:58 AM | or.. the poor kid lone kid had family religeous convictions about such things....
like a hindu/bhuddist kid...
it's hard to project why the one anti voter chose so.... on an emotional level... unless stated...
I just thought about the vote issue... not as a slip of paper in a nameless ballot...
the face to face vote within a small group that could go either way against a lone voter.... unless coached on the nature of a group vote in a democratic system...... and if a group has to continue to work/farm together... the vote shouldn't be seen as a stance against the group... just the issue at hand..... with all opinions considered.... | |
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