| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:12:33 PM | I've been pretty active throughout college and grad school in gender programs like Take Back the Night, V-day, etc. What struck me is, this movement to combat sexual violence has been incredibly successful... rapes have decreased by 60% since 1993.
Even so, 1 in 4 women will be sexually assualted in their lifetime and 1 in 33 men. With such astonishing numbers... everyone is affect by this issue. Its not just a 'women's issue', given that sons, brothers, friends, cousins, fathers, are connected to these women who are assaulted and their emotions, involvement, and empowerment is crucial. Odds are... YOU have dated, been friends with, or even are related to someone who is a suvivor of sexual abuse, whether you know it or not.
A male activist said, "Last summer, when Eve Ensler asked me to write something about violence against women -- from a male perspective -- I went to my desk feeling skeptical, and not at all sure that I had anything significant to say on the subject. Although I had grown up in a house where female molestations of various kinds happened on a regular basis, and had spent a good deal of my adult life (and therapist's time) sorting through the emotional rubble left behind after witnessing so much misogynist violence, I felt doubtful that my experience mattered -- for the simple reason that I was a man -- compared to the traumas I had witnessed in the lives of my mother and sisters..."
He went on in the article that many men are not involved over feelings of shame, guilt by association, powerlessness, or indifference which prevent them from taking the issue seriously. Often in class discussion in undergrad and in law school I was always quite appalled out cavalier the guys in class were about the subject, they didn't treat it with the solemnity and somberness the issue deserved. Some of their comments could have even been construed to minimize the spectre of the problem.
And when I attended those events and rallies, there were a few core male allies, but they never exceeded more than 5% of the crowd. It seems to end sexual violence the other shoe needs to drop. Men need to get more involved.
My question is, what ways do you see as being an effective way to 'reach' men... what do they need to hear/see/feel to get them involved? | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:27:56 PM | | I know this doesn't apply to all women...If you want men involved, women need to not assume the worst out of men, they need to not attack (verbally) men, and they need to WANT men to help. A common response is "You don't know what it's like to walk down the street afraid". Correct, most men don't. But that doesn't mean we can't be sympathetic/empathetic. I've always gotten the impression that women want men involved, so long as the men know the women are in charge and their ideas are the right ones. How interested would you be if you walked into a meeting that was predominately male and you were basically told to just go stand off to the side and not to say anything? Just because we have different experiences doesn't mean our ideas are wrong. A woman walks into one of those meetings/rallys and the response "Great to have you here, let's get to work." A man walks into the same place "Can we help you? What are you up to?" Equality is a two way street | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:29:54 PM |
It seems to end sexual violence the other shoe needs to drop.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news but sexual violence will never end no matter how many rallys you attend or how many men get involved or how many magnetic stickers you have on your car... Yes, I'm a realist... | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:30:13 PM | | I dont think getting men more involved will do much of anything. Men that do this stuff arent the type that would go to a rally and all of a sudden think "gee I'm gonna change my ways and not abuse women anymore". Its the same as making gun laws, criminals are still going to get and use guns no matter how many laws you make, the laws only affect the law abiding citizens. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:32:15 PM | Rape is an act of violence.
But men make up over 80% of the victims of victims of violence. And those are the ones that are reported. Yes, rape is often unreported, but a guy who is beaten or raped is far less likely to report it than a woman.
Young men make up most of the people who commit violent acts, but most victims are also young men. If you really wanted to get men involved, you would be focused on ALL victims of violence. To ask men to get more involved in fighting against violence against women, while ignoring who are far more likely to be attacked, is sexist.
And when I have been involved, I've found an even more explicit sexism. Take Back the Night marches used to exclude me because of my gender. I neither know nor care if they still do. I was expected to consider myself a potential rapist simply because I have a penis. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:34:12 PM | Your cause reaches all who hear it and, so does the cause to fight cancer, MS, hungry children, global wamring, neuturing your pets, and the list goes on and on… seemingly never stopping.
The way people decided which cause to support is by first choosing one that you feel closest to and that hits home. Men will not consider sexual assault not as high rating on there list for the soal eason that they are not the ones that targeted.
You mention that everyone is affected by this, but are they really? Will men who have never been sexually assaulted really be affected by it appearing on the news? Or is it simply going to be heard as “another factual event” in their lives?
You talk about giving this issue what it derserves and I ask you, what attention does it deserve? What will the next woman tellk you and, what will the next man tell you? All that to say that you would like for society to give it the attention YOU think it desrves; which is commendable of course, just not very realistic or plausible. Many people manage to make a lot of noise to get the attention they want and after it’s done, all seems to go back to almost normal and the way it used to be.
Men will simply not get involved for the mere fact that they do not put as much importance on it as others do (like women). | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:35:22 PM | A realist or an apologetic... sounds like the same thing. But to take no action is basically to condone it. If only more civilians in Hitler's regime described how effective just standing by was...
True, but WHY don't they put importance on it? They are effective at issues like gun control, global warming, nuclear proliferation, etc.
I agree the organizers of events like those need to do more to include men in such a way that is affirming... That is why I asked the question. I am interested in doing a program on it or a series of articles in our law mag.
editpost:
Also, if you look at Merriam webster dictionary: molest actually means to 'annoy or bother or disturb', it has only taken the connotation of sexual in recent history... b/c of the prevalence. I don't even use the word to refer to sexual violence b/c considering the actual definition of the word it minimizes the act. I call sexual violence ... violence.
Chidan makes an EXCELLENT point... but more on that note... what exactly would a good program look like to engage men's ideas/opinions/actions.
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:38:07 PM | I don't quite get you...
You have this comment posted on your profile:
I hate when people ask: Why are you on this site? Isn't it obvious. I don't like the conventional meet markets ie. bars/nightclubs andI'm too shy to molest guys in broad daylight.
And wonder why we don't get involved? | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:38:16 PM | | I think chidan nailed it. If I was to walk into a meeting of victims of domestic violence, being a large man, what do you think the predominant opinion would be? The first would be shock, what's he doing here? Then fear, is his wife here? Then questioning, can we help you (read you're in the wrong place)? The truth is men can be victims of domestic violence as much as they can be victims of sexual abuse. The problem is that men are expected to deal with it differently and we're usually looked at as the guilty party because it is more likely that a man is violent in a relationship than a woman. Most of us fear the misandrist feelings of women prevalent in these groups. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:49:49 PM | Sonaofabiscuit, you make a good point... there needs to a safe space for men... perhaps one that doesn't include women at all... for instance there is a play men wrote to complement the Vagina Monologues. Its from the male perspective with an all-male cast, its called The MENding Monologues. At my undergrad instution there was a guy who was incredibly gung-ho about the issue and he actually created a group strictly for men to come together to tackle these issues, they raised money and made public televison commercials and paid for posters on buses, billboards, etc. But there has got to be an intrepid guy who will start something like this and they are few and far between...
Editpost: to the lower poster... I don't have cancer, nor does any friends or family... but I do Race for the Cure every year anyway... So, no, you don't have to be 'affected' directly to care about something. Same goes with my interest in providing free legal service to the poor (I've never been *that* poor).
Editpost: Also about Hitler's regime... 6 million Jews suddenly go missing... whole neighbored emptied, violence and gunfire and trains full of people packed in like sardines. Heck, people MOVED into the empty houses left by Jewish people. Oh yes the average person knew exactly what was going on. Just none of them would admit it after the fact, their cognitive dissonance so great that if they admited it to themselves they might have a mental breakdown at the guilt. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:52:40 PM | I have to agree with the guys here. Think about the Million Man march a few years ago. It was great to see men standing up and proclaiming to the world how they felt men should be 'men' and accept responsibility for their actions. In reality, it hasn't changed anything. So while I applaud their effort, it didn't practically solve any large-scale problems we have in this country.
Ditto on the rape/sexual abuse thing. No matter how many men speak out against it, they aren't going to change the sexual abusers/rapists. And I went to exactly one rally against sexual abuse/rape. The anti-male rhetoric nearly choked me before I got out. It was like all men were the enemy and all men were potential victimizers and they are NOT. People who hurt other people in any kind of way have psychological issues that may or may not be treatable...rapists usually aren't treatable.
I think another avenue to explore would be that women who are abused/raped should get legitimate psychiatric counseling to help her understand that it was ONE man who did this, not all of them. Too many times I have seen the gaggle of hens around a friend who was abused/raped and it immediately goes to the 'all men are bad' rant in a misguided attempt to support the victim instead of helping this girl deal with the one creep who hurt her and get back to as normal a state of functioning as she can. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:53:00 PM | I don't know the raw numbers of whom is actively supporting this...but there are about 300 million souls in the US. If half are women and one in four are directly affected...that would be 35-40million. Subtract those that are infants and young children...I don't know...15 or 20 million.
How many are actively supporting it?
There are tons of issues that need active support. I believe the one's that tend to be active are those that are most affected. I don't believe racism is right...but because of my race and generally not been a 'hot issue' in my neck of the woods...I am not active in the issue.
Those that dominate the cancer efforts...are or have been directly affected by it.
It's not like people don't feel it isn't a worthy effort...it's just that we can't be the saviors of every cause in the world.
Even in terms of sending a few bucks to help out. If we send a few buck to each and every "cause" that could use it...I would be the first on my next list of "charities" that needs money.
The fact (as stated by you) that rapes have decreased by 60% shows that not only is the effort successful...but that it must be getting a great deal of support.
Way to go!
Edit: Thanks rad...I felt what your words read...I just didn't think it would read well coming from me. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 1:56:49 PM | In my case it's because we were always met with skepticism and doubt.
I was a straight white man who volunteered for take back the night, big brothers and GLSEN.
At all three i was told (all in a different way) that i was part of the problem and essentially that my volunteering came out of "guilt" and that i had little to offer. In the end i stopped. I have better things to do with my time than to be told i offer little because of my sexual orientation/gender/color.
I won't even get STARTED about how i was treated when i declared women's studies as a minor in college. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:03:42 PM | Sorry to hear that Pacific, I have never ever down a guy for taking on such an academic endevor, in fact I have the greatest respect. Actually last year's president of the Women and the Law program was a man... so, I think that widespread mistrust is diminishing hopefully because reasonable organizers know this is where the movement needs to go.
Lower poster: because those people are still alive who were raped or assaulted in the 60s... 70s... 80...90's and 00's.
OH, and IWF... is a conservative think tank made to co-opt and keep the status quo. They have never organized anything of significance. More of their rhetoric is on free market capitalism. They are the Sarah Palin/Linda Chavez/Ann Coulters's of the world who want abstinence only, no choice, no nuthin' at the core of it... masquerading around as feminists. Sorry, zero, credibility. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:05:51 PM |
http://www.iwf.org/news/show/19076.html
Christina Hoff Sommers of the American Enterprise Institute delved into these uncomfortable waters in Who Stole Feminism. The one-in-four statistic, she found, was derived from a survey of 3,000 college women in 1982. Researchers used three questions to determine if respondents had been raped: Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because a man gave you alcohol or drugs? Have you had sexual intercourse when you didn't want to because a man threatened or used some degree of physical force... to make you? And, have you had sexual acts...when you didn't want to because a man threatened to use some degree of physical force... to make you?
Based on women's responses, researchers concluded that 15 percent of women surveyed had been raped and 12 percent had experienced an attempted rape. Therefore, 27 percent of women-- more than one in four-- were either the victims of rape or attempted rape. This is the origin of the one-in-four statistic.
Yet other data from that same survey undercut its conclusion. While alcohol surely plays a part in many rape cases, the survey's wording invites the label of rape victim to be applied to anyone who has ever drank too much, had a sexual encounter, and then regretted it later. In addition, only 25 percent of the women whom researchers counted as being raped described the incident as rape themselves. The survey found that four in ten of the survey's rape victims, and one in three victims of attempted rape, chose to have intercourse with their so-called attacker again. The survey researchers scratched their heads as to why these women would return to their attackers, but Sommers asks the obvious question: "Since most women the survey counted as victims didn't think they had been raped, and since so many went back to their partners, isn't it reasonable to conclude that many had not been raped to begin with?"
Men are just tired of the myths disguised as facts that are presented to them. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:06:37 PM | I'm going to give one example out of the OP to show why I have come to distrust the movement:
Rape has decreased by 60% since 1993. So why is the 1 in 4 number of women who will be raped still used? That's the number that was being thrown around when I was a student in the early 80's.
I have daughters. I'm very concerned about violence against women. I just don't believe the arguments used and I disagree with the rhetoric expressed. Men as a group aren't the problem. Classing an entire group of people based on their gender, as deserving of abuse is. And that knife cuts both ways. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:09:54 PM | | well my take on it is, since I meet rapist and child molesters, murderers and such. these kind of people work hiding, hoping they will never get caught. so I would say teach children when they are young to talk about when a man or women do something wrong. teach them to talk to an adult right away the more these fruit cakes know that everyone around them will call the cops right away or talk to a parent. they will slow down. teach kids young boys and girls. have it thought in schools how kids should handle it. if every pervert knows every women and child knows exactly how to respond they will slow down or simply just never do it. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:11:38 PM | | unfortunately it's likely some of the same reasons most women aren't huge advocates of equal parenting rights for fathers...it's a highly emotional topic that often feeds off of the gender divide. I personally think that the whole violence against women movement should be scrapped in favour of something non gender specific. Then you will really start seeing changes in the way society views these things. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:13:37 PM | | Just to add a few pennies. I have male friends who have also been turned away from protests against violence against women, told they were not welcome because they were men. Following the Polytechnique masacre in Montreal, men had to have their own seperate vigil because many women vocally oppossed their involvement. I'm not bitter, it was an emotional time, but I think it spoke to the idea that during such stressful periods ALL men are sometimes percieved as predators by some women. For my part, I often go out of my way to make sure that female co-workers and friends have a safe trip home at the end of the night (we work in a shady end of town), but my efforts are often met by sarcasm and mockery-by women. But I have observed that when other women offer assistance they are quick to accept. Like I said, no malice or bitterness on my part, simple obeservations. But I do plan on making sure my niece and any potential daughters have the nec essary skills to take someone apart by the time they're say . . .twelve? Then I might sleep better. | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:29:44 PM | Halftimedad, if you note... no where in any of my post have I said all men are the enemy. I haven't even used the word 'enemy'... so you are just having a knee-jerk reaction.
I think male-only groups are the first step but there needs to be a way to have a meaningful dialogue between the sexes as well. Cooperation.
And I misquoted, 1 in 6 women... and 1 in 33 and those numbers actually come from National Institute of Justice & Centers for Disease Control & Prevention. Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women Survey in 1998... not 1982 and was also a gather of statistical scienfitic representative sampling as in all studies conducted by the CDC.
Editpost for below:
Based on what? Where is my 'hatred'... when I'm asking and having faith... that men can get involved and working towards inclusion. You're the one who seems pretty hateful right now.
Sorry, there is nothing in this post that suggests gender bashing. No where do I say 'all men are rapists' or anything even remotely like that. I will bet you didn't even read any of the post or the thread and so indeed, you are the FOOL.
Why such anger? I think you're projecting yourself...
I thought if you're so awesomely wise you could have some input on how the movement needs to be restructed to include men. But no, you hate me... and probably other women too... considering how often you come in and do nothing but berate and attempt to ridicule female posters. I've read your responses and most of the time you're the one who acts superior and spews 'vitriol.' | |
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| Why aren't men more involved in the fight against sex abuse/rape?
Posted: 9/22/2009 2:31:15 PM | what a fool you are, deeply mendacious.
you come into this forum regularly with your vitriolic hatred, spew it like agent orange at people who've never done you a lick of wrong, get a little fist-bump behind the back and a smirk from your sisters in malice, and now you're in here daring - DARING - to point the finger of righteousness. because you've given the men here every reason to do what YOU want, haven't you? do you really think your association with your cause won't poison it in the eyes of those you're asking for help? could you possibly be so dense to your own presence here? oh wait, silly me - for a moment there, i was taking your post at face value. as if it actually was something besides gender-bashing.
you have zero cred. zero. the time has passed when a case could be made here that anything you represent is worth supporting.
if you really care about your cause, you'll stick to stuffing envelopes and painting protest placards in the back room, and let others do the talking. | |
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