|
|
|
|
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 12:02:28 PM | Hi there people. First off, I'm a single mum to a five year old boy, and we live in London.He's recently started school, and there's one little boy there who's being really nasty to my son. Threatening to punch him and break all of his bones, taking the mick etc. Now I've done all of the obvious things- told the teacher, spoken to the boys mum (didn't seem that bothered, said she spoke to him but he was just the same the next day), and I'm trying to reinforce my sons confidence as a result of this little thugs actions. My question is this- I have always told my son to tell an adult, or a teacher if someone is nasty, rather than endorse violence. The teachers are implementing measures such as monitering my son more closely, but is this policy more likely to result in the bullying escalating? Should I allow him to stoop to the level of the brat acting up, as it seems that aggression is the only language this child seems to understand?
Both my partner and my sons father are advocates of the self defence - if they hit you first, hit them back harder- school of thought- but that seems to me, to be contradicting the past five years I've spent teaching my son respect and non-violence (if that's the right phrase?!)
Please help, I don't want him to be a walkover, but I don't want to teach him that hitting people is the answer! All advice much appreciated.Thanks | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 12:14:25 PM | Two of my kids have dealt with bullies. The first was my daughter and one of the girls at her school from around 1-3rd grade. She was really a snotty little witch but I told my daughter to avoid her when she could, be cordial to her if she had to talk to her, because you never know what is going on in someone's home or life. She wound up becoming this girl's best friend and did discover later that there were problems in the home with her mother and stepfather.
My son had a difficult year in 6th grade, wound up in at least one fight. In 7th grade, he wound up in fights twice, both times he walked away and the kid hit him in the back of the head. I have always taught my children to walk away, involve the teacher, etc. but I do not expect them to stand there and get beaten because with the school rules, they will be in trouble anyway. The problem is that I felt in both those cases, he could have continued walking and avoided the incident, i.e. he did not remotely try hard enough to avoid the physical confrontation.
Last year a boy was taunting him every day for at least a month. The last thing he did before I went to the vice principal was throw a basketball at my son's stomach while he was doing chin ups. My son still didn't react other than asking what his problem was specifically because he had promised me he would not get into a fight. The day I spoke to the vice principal about all of it, particularly the basketball incident, I told my son he had gone well beyond what I expected him to do to try to avoid getting into it with this kid and if he hit him on school grounds, he had my blessing to beat the crap out of the kid.
If it is possible, I would advocate what I have done with all of my kids, try to mind your own business, try to remember that someone that is that mean may have someone at home doing the same thing to him, and to involve the teacher if there is a problem. I would also take the kid to karate class so he isn't a sitting duck. In addition to learning how to defend himself, he will be taught a code of ethics that will reinforce that physical contact is a last resort after all other avenues are exhausted. Karate will help build his confidence and OP, it could make a huge difference to your son knowing he can defend himself well, knowing that he has nothing to prove and also nothing to fear. Bullies only keep it up when they get a reaction and when they know someone is scared, take those benefits away and the bully doesn't really have anything to do. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 12:19:21 PM | You are attracted to your mate and ex because they are men yes?
Do you want to raise a man or an emasculated version of one? If he is smaller he is either going to develop a sense of humour or get more friends but the self defence thing is good.
My son is taking tai-kwon-do. In a very short time it helped him develope a good sense of self reliance and confidence. He does not use to beat up other kids but it gives him an air that puts the bullies off onto other victims. He is six and has stepped in once to help stop a bully from picking on a girl in his class, made me proud. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 12:38:59 PM | Thanks for the replies . Just today I have been looking for martial arts courses in my area, as I think that it would give him more faith in his strenth and his abilities. To be honest, he's very tall and strong child- people often mistake him for a seven year old, so I know that if it came to a physical fight, and if he disregarded the teaching he has had, ,he could more than hold his own.
Clickon-baby- did you mean that if I don't encourage him to physically defend himself, I am emasculating him? I obviously want him to grow up to be a man, it just seems to me that five is too young to be encouraging him to punch another child. And there are further implications because of the size of him in relation to other children- I'm sure that he would come out of it looking like the bad guy .
At the moment we're trying the looking tough defence. Whereby, he errr, looks tough. Basically if anyone says anything mean to him he's to say in a loud and angry voive "Dont talk to me like that".Hopefully that says to the bully that he won't stand for it, but also gets the attention of any nearby teacher or adult.
Anyway, thanks again. Any tips or advice is ever so welcome, as I really want for him to socialise and interact well, and not be upset by one little horror. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 12:58:11 PM | | I think you can do both. Both of my boys have never picked on a smaller kid and both have stepped in when someone bigger was picking on someone their size or smaller. I think with your son's size and some training, he will know he has choices. I think children that really can take care of themselves don't drift into picking on someone smaller or even answering people that are goading them into a fight, they don't need to. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 1:04:40 PM | I believe that there is nothing wrong with defending oneself with violence if one is under violent attack. I taught my son to use his words, not his fists but when the physical aggression started, I told him to hit back. He did and the bully was not his problem anymore. We call it "playground justice" around here and it works.
The problem is not with the child, it is with the parents of that child, but since the school system here is not that good at helping these bullies to stop their behaviour, I taught my son what would work. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 3:12:37 PM | | .....op, i feel your pain. bullying is finally being discussed mainstream. the most successful looking 'tactics' i have seen or read of lately involve reinforcement of INVOLVEMENT. another child stands up, the bully backs off. it does appear to show some hope.... i would approach your school to discuss an open forum. children need to stand tall with their collective voices to protect each other now. we want to protect our children, but our options as parents are rather limited. best of luck. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 3:15:23 PM | Yeah, I'm gonna go against the grain here and disagree. We're talking about FIVE year olds, not teen aged thugs. Five year olds don't have the mental capacity that most parents give them credit for. Were also talking about a boy who has allegedly ONLY threatened your son and has yet to display any physical violence. Further, when you tell a small child that it's OK to hit, regardless of the circumstances, then you'd better be prepared for him and you to suffer the consequences. Fighting is forbidden at school so, you're telling your child that he doesn't have to follow the rules. When children fight at school, they punish everyone involved. So, YOUR son will be disciplined as well, regardless of who started the fight. He may also be physically injured in the process. So, I'm rather surprised at the number of you who condone child violence - whether it's under the guise of "self defense" or not.
If the boy truly is a bully, then he obviously has some issues with self esteem OR he's not getting enough positive attention. Perhaps a better option would be to try and make friends with the boy, rather than figuring out how your son could kick his ass. OR have your son just plain ignore the kid. You know, children need to learn how to resolve conflict without parents always stepping in. Surprisingly, young children left to deal with confrontations like this on their own, will usually settle it without violence. More often than not, things like this just blow over on their own. However, if outside forces (parents) get in the middle of it, it takes on a whole life of it's own and escalates to a level that it never would have gotten to, had grownups not have been involved.
IMO, OP has made the school aware of her concerns and they have acknowledged that they will be more vigilant. So, let the kids hash it out in their own way. I have no qualms about teaching children karate, but teach it to them for the RIGHT reasons. For the fitness it provides both mentally & physically and to gain self confidence & self control. Any qualified karate instructor will turn you away if you were to walk in and say that I want my kid to learn how to kick some bully's ass - that's NOT what karate about.
AND, before I get accused of being a passive wimp, remember that my comments are based on the fact that we're talking about FIVE YEAR OLD little boys. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 3:26:04 PM | whoah- thanks everyone for your input, there's a lot here for me to think about.
Navigator6, just to reassure you, I have in no way instructed my child to kick butt!The martial artss course is a prospect purely as it will instill in my son the self-belief, and confidence to deal with this bully*- and, yes, I use the word bully , as he is taunting, threatening, and has actually punched my son. To an extent I am concerned that should I dwell on it, with the school, and the paren ts, it will escalate, and so I am simply seeking advice and opinions on the best way to equip my son to deal with the situation.
Thanks again.
* not neccessarily in a violent way, perhaps simply ensuring he isn't afraid of him. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 3:50:17 PM | I read ALL your posts and the other comments.
I cant review them here once typing so am going off memory. It seems you said he may be the biggest kid in the class (looks like he's 7) and this bully MAY be one of the smaller ones.
It could be indicative of something going on in the bully's home. A drunk dad who beats him and his mum up.. or some other bullying that he gets away from school.
However, that isnt your problem. Here in the states, and in California in particular, there is a zero-tolerance policy in the schools over fighting. Here your kid has to take a beating to not get suspended or expelled for fighting even if it's total self-defense.
That also being said, I'd learn the school policy for this. Learn what would happen IF you had your son turn and beat this kid up using his size to overwhelm him. Learn the LEGAL and school-rule consequence for that happening.
IF a claim of self-defense would get your own kid off scott free, then you really need to consider instructing your son to punch this kid HARD, and to stand over him TELLING the punk to NEVER BULLY ANYONE AGAIN. Then he offers his hand to pick him up and say.. "now that we have an understanding.. let's go play on the jungle gym"
It established pecking order. I get what you are trying to teach your boy. However, like TR (teddy roosevelt) said about international relations.. "Talk softly but carry a big stick"
Also for you history buffs.. Douglas MacArthur steamed into Tokyo bay on the USS Missouri (Mighty Mo)for the signing of the UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER of the Japanese. As the motor launch was bringing the Japanese high command out, the Mighty Mo had all guns loaded and manned "at the ready" as were all the rest of the ships in the U.S. fleet, leveled and pointed at tokyo.
He shook their hands and let them sit down to sign the surrender documents.
I was teased in school. My mother was a school teacher in another district. When she learned I was being teased, she talked with me about it. As you can see, I have naturally curly hair. I lived in a total whitebread neighborhood around the time of the watts riots in nearby L.A. This kid constantly called me N*GGER. Many other kids would watch him taunt me, grab my by the front of my shirt challenge me with..
"Whatcha gonna do N*gger? Your daddy must have been a N*gger too"
All the kids would laugh.
Well, my mom heard about it and said: "You know I'd NEVER "tell" you to break school rules and start a fight. I always have told you to ask NICELY to that person to NOT do the offending behavior THREE TIMES."
I said, what if he keeps doing it a 4th time.? She said
Well, I'd NEVER tell you to punch him as hard as you can in his nose withOUT warning
Cause that would be against the SCHOOL rules.
NO kid ever bothered my again. In fact other kids would stop bothering others when they saw me walking up. Hmmmmm | |
|
| |
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 5:15:18 PM | | You've spent five years preparing your child to be picked on. I'm against violence, too, but there is a world of difference between the holocaust and a small boy defending himself. He needs to learn how to win a fight, as well as when to avoid one. Teaching "violence is bad" is not only unrealistic, it leaves him as prey for any thug with five minutes to spare. Violence done in self defense is a splendid thing and has some relationship with the concept of survival. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 6:04:00 PM |
The teachers are implementing measures such as monitering my son more closely, but is this policy more likely to result in the bullying escalating?
Yes. Of course.
School administrators like bullies. They have a lot in common with them. And you're in the UK, so it's even worse. Why do you think they sell Swish! at every moderately disreputable news agent?
Non-violence is a wonderful thing if you have several thousand Hindus. If you don't, it doesn't work so well. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 6:07:20 PM | | I would take this past the teacher to the Principal and demand the Principal do something, and then inform the School District superintendent. I tell my son if someone keeps picking on him after he has told then it is okay to pound the kid. But make the Principal acknowledge the problem and make them fix it. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 6:53:48 PM | I just tell my daughter to let her bullies know that if they try it one more time, it'll be my MOM coming to visit you tomorrow.
It usually stops there. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 7:22:11 PM | My son has been missing his front teeth since he was a toddler so he has been a perfect target for bullying since grade 1.
I found it to be a great opportunity to teach him about bullies. And informed him that the bully is a wimp who has no better way of showing his jealousy than to pick on other kids.
He got another lesson about bullies when walking to school and getting the pleasure of watching a boy being beaten up. He came with me to tell a teacher about what we saw.
I teach him to tell an adult and that hitting back only gets him into more trouble than the person who was originally picking on him.
The 'if they hit you, hit them back harder' mentality is the wrong thing to teach. Kids here get punished MORE for retaliating.
I believe teaching them to walk away will benefit them more in the long run than teaching them to stoop to the bullies level and fight back.
I grew up with the 'walk away' technique...and yea I got my ass kicked when I was younger...all that taught me was that I needed bigger friends. It also taught me to stand up for the little guys who always got picked on. I still stand up for the loner being picked on. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 8:06:42 PM | Your partner and son's father are correct. A sad fact of male socialization is that boys spend a good portion of their childhoods trying to keep other boys from bullying them. The most realistic book ever written about boyhood is "Lord of the Flies."
For adults, hitting people is (almost) never an answer. However, for children, it very often is. I'd bet dollars to donuts that if your son bloodied this bully's nose, it would not only stop the harrassment, but your son's cirlce of friends would widen considerably. Heck, the bully might well end up being his friend. But if your son doesn't defend himself, he'll be the target of bullying for years to come. And bullied little boys grow into angry, violent men. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 10:58:54 PM | I think everyone should always try to avoid violence but sometimes people leave you no choice if they are harassing you and have you cornered. You have to stand up for yourself and if that means hurting an attacker then so be it. If you're going to fight though you better be sure to win. Pick your battles.
As long as you feel justified you can live with yourself and I think that your own opinion of yourself is all that counts at the end of the day. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/24/2009 11:18:09 PM | | Thanks again everyone- there's a real divide here over whether its better to retaliate in self defence, or maintain passivity. My son's currently still maintaining his "tough" approach, which coupled with his size, will hopefully deter the bully. I do feel that at five, I don't want him hitting. Not unless it is a last resort. It's incredibly frustrating, the whole siuation, and I have made all of the people at the school aware of it, as well as obtaining a copy of the anti-bullying policy there. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/25/2009 2:45:18 AM | There is another approach your son can take - teamwork with his buddies. Boys LIKE helping each other out and really value loyalty as a friendship quality.
I got called into my son's last school as he'd teamed up with 1/2 a dozen of his mates and cornered a 10 year old bully in the toilet. They SAT on the bully while my son gave him a LOOOONG lecture on how it wasn't nice to pick on kids that are smaller than you, that the big lad should be helping them etc etc. Seriously the deputy head told me my son had a great potential future as a priest such was the sermon this bullying big lad got lol!
It wasn't about violence it was about the need to be HEARD by the aggressor. My lad is too smart to passively accept being a sitting duck and got creative. He happily owned up to the fact that the sit on was his brain child and that he'd persuaded his mates to help him.
My son was FOUR years old. His mates were four or five and the bully was TEN. My son had begged the teachers, lunch supervisors etc to sort out the kid. I'd been in seen the head teacher a few times, demanded the school policies and done all the things that a "good parent" does when their lad comes home covered in bruises. All to no avail.
Yes they used enough forced to rugby tackle the older lad. But they didn't hit him, they sat on him to MAKE him listen to how they felt as a group about him.
My point - your son may not be able to cope with this alone, sometimes adults can't help. Peer pressure and teamwork MAY be the answer. If your son AND a few of his friends can verbally stand up and tell this lad VERY calmly that his behavior is not OK and that as a group they won't tolerate it the bully is likely to change his ways sharpish.
As parents we forget boys like to function as part of a peer group instead of just individuals most of the time except when we are talking about when it all goes wrong for "teen gangs". The group can be a force for good too if we guide them right. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/25/2009 2:12:21 PM |
However, that isn't your problem. Here in the states, and in California in particular, there is a zero-tolerance policy in the schools over fighting. Here your kid has to take a beating to not get suspended or expelled for fighting even if it's total self-defense.
That also being said, I'd learn the school policy for this. Learn what would happen IF you had your son turn and beat this kid up using his size to overwhelm him. Learn the LEGAL and school-rule consequence for that happening.
IF a claim of self-defense would get your own kid off scott free, then you really need to consider instructing your son to punch this kid HARD, and to stand over him TELLING the punk to NEVER BULLY ANYONE AGAIN. Then he offers his hand to pick him up and say.. "now that we have an understanding.. let's go play on the jungle gym"
I agree and do not agree with this statement. Why is it not our problem that the kid is dealing with something at home? We are all divorced or otherwise raising a child alone and most of us have another parent in the picture. If one of our kids started bullying other kids, wouldn't you want the school, the parents of the victims, everybody wondering whether something is going on at home because realistically, we can never know what is happening to our kids when they are not with us.
The little girl that was really cruel to my daughter, my daughter wound up a godsend for that child. I'm not sure how it evolved but I think my kid simply wore down her defenses. By not reacting hatefully or totally withdrawing, she was able to see past her own stuff to really notice my daughter, who is one of those people that from the time she was a little kid, people trust her with things they have never told anyone else. This girl had a source for venting things that were going on and she was able to make other friends as well. She wasn't bullying other children anymore either.
What chaps my butt about our zero tolerance policy is that even if the altercation is witnessed by 30 kids that all concur that little Billy started it, even if the teacher watched the whole thing and knows that little Billy started it, both kids get the exact same punishment. I can see having to punish both children in some way, particularly if there are no witnesses and even when people know pretty much that Billy would have started it even if they didn't witness it. I think if there is a clear aggressor, they should get 3 days of suspension and the victim 1 day.
As the OP noted, I have taught my kids that retaliating is a last resort which is why the two fights my son got into in 7th grade were the wrong decision because when he was walking away and was hit in the head, he pretty much beat the crap out of the kid. Another option would have been turning around and telling the kid to leave him alone and backing away, obviously defending himself if the kid came after him again. Now, another component of our situations is this is a school where 37 kids were arrested in a race riot that same year and one the boy he fought with at the beginning of the year was a crazy little shit that wound up in alternative school for pushing a pregnant teacher and a few weeks later for slamming a girl's head into a locker hard enough to draw blood. My son was short for his age, just now as a freshman starting that teenage, adolescent growth spurt, and he is one of those kids with the natural six pack but no bulk. To a significant extent, while I still feel that his reaction to being hit in the back of the head was wrong two years ago, when you beat up the crazy kid, people leave you alone.
It was also interesting or a fluke that the fight he got into at the end of that year, he was never disciplined for his involvement. Strict application of the district rules indicates that the 2nd fight results in 3rd party when they send the kid to an alternative school for a specified time period. He didn't even get suspended, either the man forgot, which I think highly unlikely, or he chose not to carry out the punishment because my son had broken up a fight between the boy that hit him in the back of the head and another boy, and because he was walking away when he was attacked and retaliated.
My message to all three of my kids because unfortunately the girls nowadays get into fights too, has been to take every measure you can to walk away but if you truly cannot walk away, I don't expect you to stand there and get a beating, particularly when you will be punished whether you fight back or not. I was really proud of my middle son last year for ignoring the boy that was trying to goad him into a fight but if the school hadn't put a stop to the bullying, which one visit to the vice principal's office apparently did, he had my express permission to fight back if the kid ever hit him at that point because he had already endured this b.s. for around two months and part of that period he was in a wheel chair because of a broken collar bone.
I want my kids to be kind, caring, compassionate people that are capable of resolving disputes with their minds, creativity and some patience but I also want them to be able to defend themselves when they are given no other choice.
For a bit of levity here, any of you remember that episode of Happy Days when Richie is dealing with a bully and the Fonz asks him if he has ever seen him in a fight. Why, because people thought he could kick their ass so he never had to. Kids are just like dogs, I think they can smell fear and when someone knows he can take care of himself, I think what he projects keeps him from being targeted by bullies. My youngest son is one of the smallest kids in his class, he is always the smallest kid on his football team, and when one of his friends was being bullied by kids in the apartment complex that were 3 or more years older and much bigger, he beat the tar out of one of them.
It is unfortunate that schools still don't seem to grasp how to handle bullies because it really creates a hostile learning environment for a kid, when they are scared, when they can't really play normally because they are looking over their shoulder. We want our kids to be the bigger person but we have all I think experienced at some point in our lives when the people we were dealing with would not allow us to behave the way we wish. So you give the kid plan b, c, d, e, f,....and at some point I think the plan needs to be, put the kid on the ground.
Faith, that is an excellent story. Sometimes just speaking up can silence a bully, that is something we should teach our kids as well. Do they have it in them to speak out when something is wrong even if their friends will be mad at them or if they wind up in trouble by association or something? If they are afraid of a bully, will they have the strength of character to stand up to their friends when they are doing something wrong or to walk away from those friends if they expect the child to do them too?
When my daughter was in the 3rd grade, some yo mama jokes got out of hand and they turned racial. They were on a field trip and their teacher was out ill that day. She came home from school the next day and told me she was probably going to be in trouble. She had told her teacher about what the kids had done and expected to be punished for her participation. I was proud of her for doing the right thing but more impressed that she decided on her own and wasn't afraid of getting into trouble herself or if her friends would be mad at her. She also got into trouble in day care when she was three for punching a boy in the nose a head taller who was picking on one of the littler girls. Right or wrong I was proud of her both times. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/26/2009 9:48:36 AM | ....for the record....my suggestion has nothing to do with advocating violence (although i am not going to say it never crossed my mind).
PEER INVOLVEMENT can work for 5 year olds as well as 15 year olds. it is gauged accordingly. two passers-by stop and say....hey, stop it, what's going on, leave him/her alone, we're getting a teacher..etc...
it encouages others to do the same. eventually there will be more 'guardians' than 'bullies' is the goal | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/26/2009 11:25:09 AM | Package, my comment about "whatever is going on in the bully's home" is not the PRIMARY problem to be concerned about. There may be NOTHING going on, or maybe his dad is also a bully and taught him that behavior.. who knows.. but more important, you cant make the bully's POSSIBLE excuse for being a bully for him.
You first stop the behavior of that bully towards your kid by teaching your kid how to stop it.
If you read further in my suggestion, I ended it with an offer of a hand up and to go play.. ONCE THE VICTIM has become the victor. This is especially valuable at the age the OP said her son was. It is a way to establish HOW you will allow others to treat you, THEN says "no hard feelings".
Doing this also reduces the chance of retaliation.
We teach people how to treat us, by what we ALLOW. My recommendation was to FIRST and foremost get the bully to understand, "The bullying stops here and now"
I also think some of you missed the OP's statement that her son was BIGGER than the other kids, which could very well be what's behind him being the target. The bully is trying to establish HIS dominance over the bigger kid, cause he's in fact afraid of him due to size.. sort of a Napoleon complex in the bully.
It doesnt matter WHY something happens as much as it matters how and when to get it to change. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/26/2009 12:06:09 PM | As a single mother of boys myself, I also have always tried to raise my boys to ignore that kind of crap and walk away, in addition to not showing that kind of ignorance themselves. I've never cared for violence or fighting either. However, it's a different world out there for boys than it is for girls, and while we might be able to understand and accept that to some degree, since we can never actually walk in those shoes, it's pretty tough to ever think we can truly understand it.
I posted a similar post asking dads how I could help my son deal with a crap-head kid at his school. After doing so, I changed my opinion of how my son should deal with this kid. The best advice I got from the responses to my post and which I passed along to my son included the fact that sometimes a fist to the face is necessary; if you must do so, aim for the nose where it will cause more noticeable damage thereby giving the shmuck a souveniere to walk around with for everyone else to see (i.e., black eye or eyes); and last but not least, I'll back you up if I get called to the school. | |
|
| Nasty children- how to overcome?
Posted: 9/26/2009 3:06:43 PM | REO..
The "I'll back you up whatever you do" statement is probably the most important thing a parent can tell their kid.
Especially when they've come to you looking for advice BEFORE they just act on it, and you are aware they are dealing with an issue | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
