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| Oct 5th entry in "My Utmost for His Highest"....defining sin
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:35:10 PM | I've been reading a book called "My Utmost for His Highest" lately. In its format, this book presents a thought to ponder for each day of the year, about a five minute read each day.
On the Oct 5th entry, the author suggests that sin is not so much really about keeping or breaking rules, laws, mores or standards related to morals and ethics as we commonly define them in most cases. But rather the entry suggests that sin is more strictly only really just about those times when we ourselves give ourselves "promotions" into thinking that we are a god ourselves, and thereby falling out of proper hierarchical alignment under our Creator.
As I know in many instances, and can guess in others, that some of the regular fish here also have copies of this book, could I ask for your comments on this entry? Do you agree or have trouble with it to a point as I do? | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:48:58 PM | I have trouble with it as you have stated it here. Sin is more than just bad choices which cause us to fall out of alignment with our Creator. The New Testament (and Jesus) teaches that the sin nature is passed down by birth through the seed of Adam, that we are all born out of alignment with the Creator. That sin nature puts us out of fellowship with God and God declares us guilty. BUT-- since we could never get holy enough to bridge that gap and pay that price, He did it for us in the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus said that when we accept that payment for ourselves, then the sin nature in each of us is changed and we are back in fellowship with God. Sin can still take place in our life through bad choices, but there is a remedy for that sin through repentance and changing of the heart and mind and by daily growth and maturity in learning how to please God.
NOTE: This is a very basic, simplistic answer to a very complex question and is by no means an exhaustive explanation of sin and justification by faith. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/7/2009 7:53:17 PM | I think the notion of "spiritual not religious" is in a sense giving oneself that "promotion" you mentioned in your post. Aside from the unusual amount of assurance one needs to possess to imagine one could "roll their own" religious system, it violates the scientific method in that it judges values/events from an involved, as opposed to an external and objective viewpoint.
My own 'spiritual not religious" (deliberate self effacing) view on sin is that it involves an act which the rewards ensuing from the behavior are so outweighed by the negative consequences. Example: adultry. A few minutes of enjoyment might create far-reaching negative consequences incl. divorce, financial failure, children in psychoanalysis decades later, etc. If one applies this test to the 10 commandments, the rule holds up pretty well utilizing this admittedly secular test. I've applied the test to the 600 plus commandments of Judaism and they hold up less well which might explain my comfort with Christianity.
Put me down for a C- on your author. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/7/2009 8:18:19 PM | Still thinking.....................
Good comments GC.
When we do willfully sin, we are in essence usurping the authority which belongs only to God, making ourselves into little "gods". (Romans Chapter 1 defines this well.) So, Oswald is onto something, but it is only part of the picture, not the whole story. When we confess Jesus as Lord, we are saying I give Him permission to be the ruler over my life, and we take ourselves off of our little thrones and let Him be King. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/7/2009 9:05:18 PM | This subject is touched in the book I'm writing, I do see it differently than most, To me it was the struggle between Pelagius and Augustine of Hippo, Pelagius believed in free will, and according to Augustine, men shouldn't have free will, that because of this so called original sin of Adam and Eve, that the Church should control and dictate man-kinds spirituality. I believe it was God who gave man, free will, and it was Satan (Samuel) Lucifer....(what ever you want to call him) the one who wanted to take free will from mankind... It got Samuel kicked out of Heaven.... with his buddies>>>>> a third of the host of Heaven.
I don't believe Jesus taught Sin... or that we were sinners, he taught love, that we all should love God, and love each other. He told us to accept him... in our hearts... through the spirit.... To me he is telling us to be spiritual, and to love. He didn't teach religion, rules, laws.... He gave us two things to think about based on one thing... Love.. And in doing that simple thing... all of the commandments and rules and laws that man puts on us don't matter... things will be covered under this so called golden rule.
Sin is pride, it's hate, it's judging others... There is only one judge and jury, and we have one simple rule. I believe we are born into love.... not sin, It is sin that finds us waiting, when we are not acting with our hearts.
Like my favorite saying...... and most have either read it in my profile or has heard me say it.....
"Let Your Mind Surrender to the Wisdom of your Heart"
I just don't buy this original sin thing.... Look at a new born.... Nothing but love. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/8/2009 10:04:52 AM | | The concept of the Original Sin as we know it now (basically that it's an STD) doesn't come from Christ or the Bible. It was really theorized by St. Augustine in the late fourth and early fifth centuries, C.E., formed out of St. Augustine's guilt (see Confessions) over his pre-Christian life. This led to the idea that unbaptized infants would be sent to hell, which led to the creation of the concept of "Limbo of Infants," a halfway house between heaven and hell by Peter Abelard in the 12th century. Although that concept itself is definitely post-Christ by well over a millennium, people still believe such nonsense. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:13:27 AM | I have to agree with Elmenreich on this one... It is the History of Augustine... Actually if you read about what was going on in Rome during this time... at the turn of the fifth century.... You can learn a lot about the root to most of what was going on with Christianity. The Roman Senate was actually considering the return of Paganism... There was a major influence by the Franks at this time in Rome and oh yeah... another book burning.... The Library of Alexandria for about it's 5th time was burned down, (It was around this time the Gnostic Nag Hammadi Library was buried in Egypt) this time by the Emperor Theodosius... another interesting person to read besides Palagius... was Hypatia of Alexandria.
It's one thing to read the Bible and have faith... It is an entirely different thing to believe what has been taught throughout history as truth.... Search and you shall find.... It's best to learn the truth, than to just follow along like sheep.
Not telling people what to think or believe... but to just look and search out the truth... It could be anywhere.... and yes... some of faith will say that searching for truth... will only open you up for deception.... well... I think thats a cop out... to keep everyone in line. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/8/2009 6:04:37 PM | GolfCoast,
LOL! I've had exactly that same thought many times:
"I think the notion of 'spiritual not religious' is in a sense giving oneself that 'promotion'....."
Often times when I've talked with "spiritual but not religious" ones, I've frequently come away with an understanding that we have different beings at the centers of our respective universes. - And our perspectives about needed actions under any given circumstances are fundamentally different too.
This thread has been a great read. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts!
-o4 | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/8/2009 6:45:51 PM | so, let me get this straight: any/all non-believers of a higher power or deity are fools that despise wisdom and instruction?
wow
and, to fear a god that should be a benevolent persona is the beginning of knowledge.
ok...
as an atheist, I must be really really dense. why instill fear where love should reign? are we taught to fear our parents and family in order to love them? should we fear that that brings us joy? how does fear fit into this equation? does a lack of fear of a deity really label someone as stupid??
wow
did anyone alert the likes of Julius Axelrod, Carl Sagan, Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein...just to name a few, that they were doomed to wearing the "fool" label?
I can't imagine having to fear an ideal to gain anything.
that proverb, imo, is a nasty way to put down those that think differently and not in a higher power.
again, I guess that my denseness just won't allow the notion of "fear" as a positive force in my life.
mighty christian way of thinking.  | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:54:57 PM | Mz Taken, your points are well taken. The misunderstanding is due largely to the limitations of the English language.
The problem is the English language is limited in expression when compared to Greek and Hebrew. In English, we have only one word for LOVE and one word for FEAR. Greek, for example, has 3 words for love to distinguish between brotherly love (Phileo), romantic love (eros), and Christian love or charity (agape). Each word expresses a different type of love. You love your children in a different way then you love chocolate or popcorn. You love your husband in a different way than you love your dog, yet when speaking or writing English, we use the same word for each one of these and we understand which type of love is being meant by the context rather than by the word itself.
We have only one word to express every type of fear, whereas Hebrew, the language in which the passage you are referring to was written, has several words which each express various nuances of fear . Proverbs 1:7 says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom." The Hebrew word used there does not mean cowering in terror and fear and being afraid. Instead it means respect, reverence, piety and awe for God because of who He is. It is much like the way little kids fear (respect and obey) their parents for the position of authority and honor which they hold. Most children know their parents love them, yet there is a degree of fear (reverence and respect) because of the authority which the parents hold over the child's life.
God IS love--we reverence, respect and serve Him because of His love, not out of terror and fear. Sorry for the misunderstanding.....
Jack Diamond: re original sin--- No one has to teach a child how to sin. Just stand in a room full of 2 year olds for a couple of hours and you will see it manifest before your very eyes. The sin nature is IN us. If you do not believe this, then you stand in stark contrast to the Apostle Paul and most of the New Testament. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/8/2009 11:23:30 PM | When questioned about the commandments Christ said there were only 2. I have never seen how one can abide by the 2 without keeping the 10. On has to either not love God or not love all people in order to do the 10.
I actually have observed religions set themselves above Christ ... promoting themselves contrary to the teachings of Christ even while claiming to be christian. As a spiritual but not religious I humble myself to Christ/God. Whenever I forget the relationship is one of humility before Christ/God my life doesn't go as well. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 1:05:48 AM |
As I know in many instances, and can guess in others, that some of the regular fish here also have copies of this book, could I ask for your comments on this entry? Do you agree or have trouble with it to a point as I do?
I was thinking, another poster said that many misunderstandings happen due to mistranslation right? How do we know that the "right" parts are right? I mean, we always hear how the "wrong" parts are misinterpreted, but the "right" parts never are?
How do we know that the part(s) on sin wasn't misinterpreted? <--Rhetorical, more or less.
But rather the entry suggests that sin is more strictly only really just about those times when we ourselves give ourselves "promotions" into thinking that we are a god ourselves, and thereby falling out of proper hierarchical alignment under our Creator.
Well that sounds more like egotistical behavior to me. A creator or not if someone is thinking they are better than another, has a high ego (Not that it is bad.) Of course, the religion wouldn't work if people were allowed to think they were smarter than a god, so there is a rule against it. (The "sin".) Just like the unforgivable one Jesus talked about in the N.T., a ruler must have a unbreakable rule that keeps his subjects under control. Otherwise you might have a Exodus on your hands! | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 1:35:51 AM |
"I think the notion of 'spiritual not religious' is in a sense giving oneself that 'promotion'....."
But someone who is spiritual is believing in God... Tuning into his teachings... Someone who is religious believes in one church or another... in a religion... and the teachings of God, based on how that church believes and wants it's members to believe.
Now... I'm not knocking religion.. or anyone who chooses to follow one... But why would someone who says they have faith in God, judge someone else's faith? You can believe the way you do, It may work for you, and if you want to pass along your message so be it... But to judge someone else because they think different.... well... who has done the promoting?
As a spiritual person I listen to what I feel is what God wants me to hear.... Not something based on something some other person determines how I should know God. What self promotion is it???? .... wanting to know God? I don't need to go through someone else to know him, no Pastor or Preacher or Pope or Prophet.... sure I can listen to these people and learn things perhaps.... But they don't hold the key for me... It's in me... it's within us all to know God ourselves if we so choose.
No one has to teach a child how to sin. Just stand in a room full of 2 year olds for a couple of hours and you will see it manifest before your very eyes.
Look, I believe we all are not perfect, we have good pulling at us and we have evil pulling at us... And yes... 2 year olds can learn to sin... Human nature in itself is wicked... This is where Lucifer lives.... because we struggle with temptation... doesn't mean we were born sinners... God gave us free will.... What would free will be, if their wasn't the good with the bad... to have that free will to make choices of choosing good over evil...
The sin nature is IN us. If you do not believe this, then you stand in stark contrast to the Apostle Paul and most of the New Testament.
The Love nature is in us as well... we have a choice. And it's your opinion where I stand when it comes to the Bible or anything else. I'm not telling you how to think... I'm not even telling anyone not to believe in the original sin theory... But only saying you might want to read up on the history of religion and especially Augustine of Hippo when it comes to original sin...
It's like the Trinity, you can believe it if you like or not? To me I see Jesus as the son of God, being one in purpose and that Christian History in the 4th Century also came up with this concept, This is my view... I don't disagree with anyone who want to believe in the Trinity... I just don't think people should tell me I'm wrong and not a Christian because I think different than they do... I respect everyones rights to believe in any religion they desire... even people who do not believe in God... I disagree with them... but respect their choice... Only One will be the judge of anything we do... I have nothing wrong with people being God fearing people... I'm sure most even have a different opinion what that really means. But I don't fear God, I know he will do what ever is best for me, the challenges and hard times that we go through are a necessary part of our development.... the harder things are... the more the reward... The more you give... the more you will receive.
We have Free Will... Sure... there is Sin in us... just like there is Love in us... we are all tempted... at all times.
Adam and Eve were made out of love... They were tempted..... and they sinned.....
But here is the thing.... If you want to know the truth... it isn't me, or someone from your church who will answer these things for you... You need to ask God and let him feel your heart with the Truth... I believe he answers those who seeks him out. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 6:27:43 AM | it's interesting to see how "sin" is another fear tatic, imo, used to curb behavior in order to gain a pass from St. Peter, making one feel "guilt" on top of everything else. lol
as humans, we all share a propensity for aberrant behavior, some act out, for some impulsiveness is a disease.
imo, these are part of the good, the bad, and the wtf of the human condition.
why contribute (yet again) fear and or guilt for one of the "bad" sides of our psyche. treat mental illness with qualified resources and promote good leadership and self-esteem starting at home and in ones community.
planting the seed that you might displease a deity with your behavior-sin, seems counterproductive (you'll be damned, god is watching, god will punish you) to seeking a solution.
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 7:05:42 AM | Jack, while I agree with you in concept, I do not know if we agree on what constitutes judging. While I may make judgments about behavior or what is or is not sin, I never make the final judgment. I trust God to love all mankind like He says He does. But He also says He will pass judgment and the guilty will not go unpunished. I trust Him to make right judgments. Jesus came to take our place on judgment day. For those that are truly in Him, there will be no judgment. The rest are at the mercy of God. I believe He will have mercy on many, but not all. I also believe there is an enemy, the devil or lucifer, along with 1/3 of the angels that are trying to spoil everything God does. Their biggest sin is trying to rule over God. Just as Jesus was able to get at the heart of the law by telling us to love God and our neighbors with agape' love, I do agree that the heart of sin can be described as trying to rule over God.
I really have a tough time with eternal punishment as do most people. This is a case where I wish God would lie and do something different in the end, which is just to cut them off from existence. But God is God and I'm glad I'm not God. He can do whatever He pleases. I trust Him. I do know it makes the choice between blessing and cursing a lot easier to make in the final analysis :-D
I know one thing. I didn't ask to be born. I don't think it's too much to ask for a little time to do a little investigating. No, it is not dangerous. I just couldn't handle the subject of History in school. It was soooooo boring the way it was taught and memorizing names and dates was just not my cup of tea, which is why it is the one course I regularly got a C in. Now that I’m a little older, I'm more interested in studying history, but I'm also pretty skeptical that what is written is accurate. I get that from seeing how our free press treats the news. If it can't be reported any better than that today, how are historical writings any better? The nice thing about the Bible as we know it today is it is written by Holy Spirit inspired eye witnesses as well as prophets, the kind of prophets that have stood the test of time and have been proven. For example, Jesus Himself foretold the destruction of Rome and the Jewish Temple.
While I do believe that the Bible is the Word of God for all mankind, I do not believe it is the complete word of God for mankind. There are somewhere around a half a dozen books mentioned in both the OT and NT that are not in the Bible.
As far as believing in tradition goes, I'm mostly against it. Corruption occurs far too quickly. I look at the Bible and I look at the church as a whole and I go huh? After being pretty heavily involved for a lot of years and seeing how ugly things can get behind the scenes, I've been "unchurched" for several years now. I think God understands.
Once you get the basics of the Christian walk down, it takes a lifetime to walk it out. It's not trouble free. It's difficult in fact. It takes a lot of effort and determination. But that's ok, because Jesus lead the way and showed us it really does take all that. The nice thing is in His place Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to help us, to guide us and to comfort us along the way.
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 7:38:39 AM | But someone who is spiritual is believing in God... Tuning into his teachings... Someone who is religious believes in one church or another... in a religion... and the teachings of God, based on how that church believes and wants it's members to believe.
Thanks, Jack. For that I'll forgive your little swipe above at liberals. 
I think the quote refers to the sin of pride, which is a bit different than an honest sense of satisfaction and joy in a deed well done. The pride that cometh before the fall is the sense of entitlement we get when we hold out expectations based on how we ourselves identify ourselves. If I, as a good whatever-I-am, feel that I deserve a certain consideration from others, that is sin. I've arrogated to myself something that only those others have the right to bestow. The effort and energy I spend defending my identity is effort and energy that I could be spending serving others, and in so doing serving God. Love God with all your heart doesn't mean love my self-image as a God-loving person with all my heart. Love others as I love myself doesn't mean loathe all those things about them that make them appear inferior to the image I have of the of good sort of person I believe I am.
Faith without works is dead, and it is the quality of my service to others that is the surest indicator of my acceptance of divine guidance in my life.
Man, I'm starting to scare myself here. Talk about falling short! | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 8:08:31 AM | | The whole thing about it is yeah, we all fall short and yes, the bigger you are the harder you fall. But there is a difference between pride and confidence. Pride is fear based. It is fearing looking bad to others. Confidence is doing what is right in spite of what others think. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 9:19:22 AM | "How do we know that the "right" parts are right? I mean, we always hear how the "wrong" parts are misinterpreted, but the "right" parts never are?"
We don't. I check the 'right parts' against the stories of Christ and if they don't align with Christ's behavior or teachings than I question them. However, each of the 4 gospels of Christ have to be checked and balanced because we do have 4 perspectives of Christ in the bible plus the perspectives of those whose stories were not included in the bible due to the bias of those who compiled the stories way back when.
"How do we know that the part(s) on sin wasn't misinterpreted? <--Rhetorical, more or less."
Since that which is all good cannot create bad (which is an absence of good) then I have always kinda thought the original commandments might have been written in the positive and changed to the negative by someone passing them along at some time. Thou shalt love God, Thou shalt tell the truth, Thou shalt respect thy neighbors property and wife, Thou shalt honor your parents .... see how it works? If you do the positive you can't break the commandments.... and, again, you are doing in 10 details what Christ commanded in the 2 great commandments of Christ. So, in the positive, beyond translation, we have cross-checked-and-verified ... which is how we determine if there is validity in research methods. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 9:30:34 AM | "Pride is fear based"
Interesting. I find pride is ego based. It is when I lose conciousness that all my results are God's. I do the footwork, but God does the results. I love it when the Olympics are on and the athletes who win visually give credit to God in thanks for their successes. They have learned. They did the footwork, God did the results. The olympian who came in second did the footwork to, but it wasn't that person's day for results. To some extent that might have been contributed by themself. It might be a skater who lost focus and goofed up. But if they made no errors and someone else still won, then I don't see how one can debate that they did the footwork and God did the results.
I find my life works much better from this approach. I focus on footwork and let go of results. I do start with trying to figure out the footwork God wants me to do. Christ's role modeling and 2 commandments do serve as a basis. | |
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| Oct 5th entry in My Utmost for His Highest....defining sin
Posted: 10/9/2009 11:21:30 AM | Ace.... The Liberal swipe.... was just me kidding around.... I could of plugged in conservatives as well.... but poking fun of Liberals is the flavor of the day...... For me.... You know... I'm the kind of guy who roots for the little guy.... and I see the Liberals being the big bullies on the block right now.... But still, it's all in fun... just a joke.
Gg.... I have a feeling we think a lot of the same way, just have some different takes on some things.... I follow cncgandolf on how she sees this... Very much so actually....
When it comes to the Bible, I believe in Jesus and his teachings... and the Bible gives us a good sense of his life and teachings, and from that we can learn a lot. But when you take and just even compare the similar teachings (Stories) in the 4 gospels, Where Matthew might write something in one way and John will have seen it a bit different. There are many reasons why this is. First of all, it appears that these were teachings, stories that were told, not written, and retold, until they realized they should write this stuff down. There were many teachings like this, and different areas seemed to have their favored stories. And we can get an idea what a story looks like when it is first told, and how that story can change every time a different person tells it... heck, every time the same person tells it, something might change.
Also there were many followers of Jesus after his crucifixion, and the Apostles were teaching and converting more and more. They travelled throughout the Mediterranean... Into Egypt, Greece, Europe (as it was back then) and as far as India (Thomas)... There was no real main church in my opinion, just Christians learning about Christ's teachings, and about God. There were different faiths you could say... and at the time Gnostics were even very popular... Some Gnostics, or who were thought to be Gnostics were Philip, Thomas, Mary Magdalene... and many others. Like today... there were many groups (churches) who learned about Jesus and his teachings.
It was Constantine, who as Emperor of Rome saw the conflict between Christian and the Roman Pagan beliefs. There were Christians who were also fighting (Arguing) with other Christians about the truths about Jesus and his teachings... manly about these gospels, writings that were being circulated throughout the Christian community... (Like today) they didn't all believe the same way. So one Christian group, the Orthodox Christians, with the help of Constantine... Squashed all others to believe the way they did, if not... than you were a heretic. It was the Council of Nicaea... in 325... this was not about the canons, but how to see Jesus... the deity... Here is where they determined the Trinity. The Nicene Creed
It was mainly a dispute between Arius and Alexander... the Orthodox disputing the beliefs of Arianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea
A little starting point to learn about the canonization of the Bible... and sure these are wikipedia... but... there are many other places to learn about this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon
Here is a good read on Athanaius.... For those who do like history, and those who helped shape what is Christianity today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius
The point is... People back than... just like people today... had agendas (their way or the highway) Just because they decided the way they did.... and worked hard at making things the way they wanted it... doesn't mean they got it right!
This whole conversation doesn't hold water if people just want to pick and choose what was accurate and what was not... everything has to be looked at. When it comes to being something touched by man... | |
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