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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/7/2009 10:42:17 PM | Watching the news channels tonight I've seen at least 3 people talking about how bad the public schools are.
I'm not so sure that the schools and teachers are the core problem. I'm not sure why they'd be so much worse all of a sudden when they seemed to work for us for many decades... or were our parents all a bunch of uneducated stooges as well?
I'm not saying public schools here are great... there are problems... but I've dealt with a number of students over the past few years and seen plenty of kids who are really sharp and well informed... impressive folks.
I also know kids who are just friggin' stumps... don't know anything except pop music and tv... not interested in anything else. Attached at the hip to cell phones and video games and functionally illiterate.
The difference between them that I always notice isn't their teachers... it's their parents (their most important teachers after all) and their environments (our culture is generally anti-intellectual).
The kids whose parents take part, pay attention, value education and do their best to help their kids stay focused... those are the parents of those sharp kids I've been meeting.
The dumb kids are the ones whose parents see parenting as a hassle, as 'cramping their style'... 'adults' who would rather be kids.
That's all just my opinion/experience though... I'm open to more information.
So, that's my question, are public school really so bad these days? or is there something else going on... are we expecting schools and teachers to do a job that is impossible without the support of good parents and a society that really values education?
A lot of the folks I see bashing the public school system are right-wing pot stirrers who I think have a vested interest in taking it down... in favor of some sort of privatized system... so I'm suspicious. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/7/2009 11:17:38 PM | This government has no real interest in fostering an educated populace... Follow the money trail... Proof in the pudding...
It all conflicts with the agenda of keeping us dumbed down... There are already too many smart people... Rocking the boat... They will be dealt with...
Wanna label me?... OK... So I'm a left-wing pot smoker... Happy now?... | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/7/2009 11:42:10 PM | Public schools need to stick to curriculum and not push the homosexual agenda.
For that my sis is home schooling. It's not as easy as it seems. She is under alot of pressure from her home state, but we are not all for alternative lifestyles being included in education.
I think public schools to some degree are getting bad cause some of the riff raff that goes there. It really does depend on how kids are raised at home. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 12:03:00 AM | It all went wrong when corporal punishment was banned in public schools.
The gov't. does not want smart citizens, just the kind who trust the gov't. to do the right thing. Which is exactly like the younger generations of late.....even some of my own generation still believe all the bvllshit that our gov't. puts out. For example: their are still idiots who believe that Oswald killed JFK.....
Yes, public schools have been crap for many years now. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 2:14:23 AM |
Public schools need to stick to curriculum and not push the homosexual agenda.
Can you explain futher what you mean by that please? Exactly what is the homosexual agenda?? | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 4:35:06 AM | The school system worked for a long time because students and parents didn't get a free pass. Instead of focusing on academics and life skills now, a lot of time is spent disciplining and in argument. A lot of parents are next to useless and aren't realistic when it comes to expectations. Too many of them also think that their child is somewhat "special" and that the school system must work around them instead of the other way around. In legitimate cases of disabilities, physical handicap, etc. that may be true but not at the rate it's been happening.
"Omg, little Johnny might have to take a TEST!"
There is also an alarming trend that I've seen in U.S schools... catering to the lowest common denominator. The "No Child Left Behind" crap should be renamed, the "Drag All the Smart Kids Down Act". Who loses out because the teacher has to spend half the time going over class material for someone who can't even grasp the basics yet? Maybe instead of basing grade work on age, it should be based on ability. A series of tests *gasp* at the end of each academic year that will measure a child's ability and place them in the right class. Maybe this could be an incentive.... because who really wants to be a 15 year old 3rd grader?
I know that in school my parents picked their battles carefully and my teacher had my parents' full support unless she was obviously in the wrong. If one of us got detention and it ruined family plans, the family plans were cancelled and you'd have to put up with dirty looks all weekend. They didn't go in half-cocked and threatening to sue, or make excuses to weasel out of it.
are we expecting schools and teachers to do a job that is impossible without the support of good parents and a society that really values education?
Yes, we are. I was speaking to a woman one who was complaining bitterly about the expectations for Kindergartners. She thought it was too much pressure for her son to have to know his home telephone number, how to fasten his shoes, recite the alphabet and count to 100. She also defended how he "played" with children while he was kicking, biting, and punching other kids because that's "what boys do". His teacher told me that she spends an inordinate amount of time on this child, constantly interrupting instruction time to tell him the basics like "it's time to sit" or "when the teacher is speaking you need to be quiet".
According to the mother, her son doesn't listen because the teacher isn't good at her job.... just try explaining to her that it's because she's a lazy parent raising a future a-hole.... and the ones losing out are the kids who don't get to everything in the lesson because the teacher was too busy trying to get Junior to shut up without being "mean".
As compared to when my grandparents were attending school. At the risk of a "I walked 300 miles a day to attend school, uphill both ways and carrying my 10 brothers and sisters" joke, the expectations were a lot higher. They had to carry their own junk of wood with them, or they would sit there freezing. You mouthed off and swore at the teacher, you got whipped and whipped again once your father found out. Parents recognized that teachers had an important job, and reinforced the idea that they were in charge. Not that I'm advocating that it return to that, but it illustrates just how far the pendulum has swung in the other direction.
When I was a child, if you tried out for anything you pretty much had to do it on your own merits. If you weren't picked for the basketball team, you either worked harder for the next year or chose something else. Yesterday, my sister told me that her son's basketball league has a new rule this year... if you try out you're on the team. As of last night, there are 38 children on his school team and half of them wouldn't know a lay up from a lay down. Children with an aptitude for basketball like my nephew will see their practice/playing time cut by 150% to give everyone a chance.
You need a system that supports a student's strengths.. instead of one that waters them down so that someone else doesn't get their feelings hurt. If you shelter a child from stress, hurt and their own limitations they'll never learn to deal with them and you'll end up with a bunch of emotionally retarded people who can't function in regular society.
Unless you're TRYING to raise idiots... in that case, just keep going as you are. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 5:35:46 AM | | No, not really. I have plenty of friends from the Magnet system that got a damn fine education. I went to private schools my entire life and feel that I have no advantage over them, and perhapse some disadvantages. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 6:14:07 AM |
Public schools need to stick to curriculum and not push the homosexual agenda.
One of the MOST ignorant things I've ever read--here or anywhere.
The 'homosexual agenda' is what, precisely?
People who believe that public schools have a 'homosexual agenda', and then homeschool their children because of their wrong-thinking, only perpetuate the ignorance and keep their own children dumbed down.
What a shame.
I've been in many sex-ed. classes, and not one time has the teacher taught about homosexuality--as part of that curriculum-- as anything but what it is: sex between same-sex couples. Period. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 6:18:52 AM | | They are worse than that bad. Some schools do well by some students. Most schools fail most students. It's by far the worst problem the US has because nothing else that is done can possibly even come close to counteracting the staggering and wholly unnecessary stupidity that results from public education. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 6:26:39 AM | Yes, they are 'that bad' and no, it's not something that's suddenly happened. The overall system of education in this country has been going downhill for decades.
I agree with the above post about dragging down the smart kids to make the stupid ones feel less stupid. I see that in action in college, and I have a feeling it's done that way because that's how the kids just getting into college have been treated in their K-12 education. It's like the next crop comes out just a step worse than the previous, so it's not real noticeable unless you've been watching it the whole time.
Most schools are only interested in processsing kids through and out the door - not unlike the way Hostess turns out Twinkies and Ho-hos. Funding allocations, jobs, ever higher pay, benefits and pensions seem to be the focus...along with being politically correct - even if it has nothing to do with educating. If they come out and can actually read and write - well, that's a bonus. Mostly, they can barely read or write and they can't make a decision without a committee tor each a consensus and share the blame when it's the wrong decision.
That doesn't necessarily mean the schools are at fault. Complacent parents and useless administrators and politicians are who should be dictating the actions schools are taking. It's as if EVERYONE involved is incompetent, so why expect the results to be any different? | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:38:10 AM | Yes.
Visit a small poor town in the South or anywhere USA.
No books or shared books. No computers.
No heat or air conditioning.
Peeling paint and leaking roofs.
Teachers and Guidance counselors pushing Ritalin. 40 kids to a classroom and they can't keep order, much less teach.
Parents moving to get kids into a better school district.
I see the extreme in this area.
The rich districts get the good schools, the poor get nothing.
This lottery was a joke from day one when they said it was for education, well sure it goes to the "right" people/schools.
I worked 60 hours a week and moved 3 times to keep my son in a "good" school with out having to go to a private one. He attended a magnet school for a year and it was a joke.
Teachers watching Jerry Springer in class. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:55:24 AM | With the ongoing issues of Hip Hop Music,Gangster Rap,moms and dads no longer truly nurturing their kids and the ever failing of the Traditional Family Structure it is even amazing that school kids can even write their names legibly these days.
Bah I said enough and do not really want to get started on this issue.
One last word: Where are the parents in all of this?  | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:57:29 AM |
Public schools need to stick to curriculum and not push the homosexual agenda.
One of the MOST ignorant things I've ever read--here or anywhere.
The 'homosexual agenda' is what, precisely?
People who believe that public schools have a 'homosexual agenda', and then homeschool their children because of their wrong-thinking, only perpetuate the ignorance and keep their own children dumbed down.
^^Amen. Ignorant people homeschooling their children - yeah, THAT's the answer!
I agree with a lot of the posts - schools are so busy trying to meet quotas and allocations, they have to shuffle the kids through the system, whether they have learned anything or not. And the parents are of little to no help. I'm all for advocating for my child, but if my child is screwing up - I'd be the first to yank them back to reality, not go appaplectic because they got reprimanded at school or heaven forbid 'disciplined'!
I don't agree with the idea that the government is dumbing down the population - that's a bit absurd, and counter productive. I do think parents have gotten lazy - expecting the schools to 'teach' our kids, and all we have to do is feed and clothe them. . . . I read an article recently that Philadelphia school disctricts are holding Parenting classes - teaching parents HOW to help their kids in school - sounds like a great idea! Unfortunately, if it weren't manditory, the ones who need it most, would never attend. Just another cycle of ignorance. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 9:35:48 AM | Just read the statistics
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development places the United States 18th among 36 nations with regards to education.
The curriculum given to the high school kids in the USA is what students in my country would have learned in grade school. The big difference is that the USA teens are still unable to comprehend what the children in my country have mastered years prior. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 10:14:36 AM | public schools used to be great.....but oh how things have changed
here is a 8TH GRADE TEST. from1895.......over 100 yrs ago.......it was pretty much standard for the country...........wonder how many graduates could pass it now?............shoot........how many TEACHERS could pass it today?
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, Kansas - 1895
This is the eighth-grade final exam* from 1895 from Salina, Kansas. It was taken
from the original document on file at the Smoky Valley Genealogical Society
and Library in Salina, Kansas and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time, 1.25 hours)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts. per bu, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $.20 per inch?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10.Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865?
Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10.Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10.Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.
top of the test states > "EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS
April 13, 1895 J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent.Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.)"
According to the Smoky Valley Genealogy Society, Salina, Kansas "this test is the original eighth-grade final exam for 1895 from Salina, KS. An interesting note is the fact that county students taking this test were allowed to take the test in the 7th grade, and if they did not pass the test at that time, they were allowed to re-take it again in the 8th grade."
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funny..........theres not one single word in there about being politically correct or about being "tolerent"about certain lifestyles...............nope....not a one.............. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 10:20:05 AM | | ^^^^Of course what they don't say is that - back in Salinas, Kansas around the 1800's - every correct answer to all these questions is "Jesus did it". | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 10:39:59 AM | The curriculum given to the high school kids in the USA is what students in my country would have learned in grade school.
... and also what students in the U.S. would have learned in grade schools of earlier generations. I looked at a lot of old textbooks and it's kind of amazing how much higher the expectations were.
Did kids get dumber? I doubt it.
Personally, I blame a LOT of what's happening on parents... parents who complain about their kids getting 'too much homework'... parents who complain about strict teachers and discipline... parents who won't lift a finger to make sure their kids are doing the work and valuing the free education they're getting. These same parents put a massive load on the shoulders of the teachers... basically expecting them to take up the slack for their own lousy parenting skills while at the same time discouraging them from taking any sort of real command over the classroom.
I've got a good bit of education under my belt and one thing I've learned is that teachers don't 'teach' you, they help you teach yourself. A bad teacher can't keep me from learning if that's what I want to do... a good teacher can't help me if I refuse to take part. Parents have the lion's share of the responsibility to see that their kids are focused on learning and take the time to do the work.
Heck, my parents saw to it that I knew basic math and how to read before I ever hit kindergarten... and that doesn't seem like a particularly amazing accomplishment.
Basically, I think the crisis is in parenting... much more so than the schools.
Our culture as a whole seems to have grown a lot less disciplined, a lot less curious... more interested in the voices that tell us how good we are and reinforce our ignorant beliefs vs. looking at the bigger picture.
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 2:11:17 PM | "Basically, I think the crisis is in parenting... much more so than the schools.
Our culture as a whole seems to have grown a lot less disciplined, a lot less curious... more interested in the voices that tell us how good we are and reinforce our ignorant beliefs vs. looking at the bigger picture. "
Simalsa; So what do you think can account for the changes you identify in our culture resulting in a parenting crisis and what do you think could successfully address the problem you identify ? | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:03:58 PM |
So what do you think can account for the changes you identify in our culture resulting in a parenting crisis
Instant gratification for me me me !!!! Lack of family life, and no I don't mean mom, dad and 2.4 kids. I mean parents in charge and families eating meals together.
Thank you to all of you who are not blaming the teachers. We aren't the ones who are making the decisions for the school system. We are fighting many of those policies. We would love to be allowed to teach.
Politicians and business plans are ruling our schools. Children are not business. Money can not be the bottom line. We need someone to do a good audit and allow the schools to spend their money where they need it.
As for social promotions, again, teachers have little say.
Yes many of us would fail the test from the 1800's, but a person from the 1800's would fail a test today on all that we now must learn and teach. I'm not saying that schools don't need reform, just that it is not about privatizing schools. Many of those private schools, charter schools and magnet schools are good because they refuse all the difficult students and families that public schools must accept.
By the way, many districts are now also feeding and clothing children. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 7:55:35 PM | Public schools need to stick to curriculum and not push the homosexual agenda.
It all went wrong when corporal punishment was banned in public schools.
Yeah... that's the ticket...
Kick out the homosexuals and start smacking the kids around...
That'll fix everything.
With the ongoing issues of Hip Hop Music,Gangster Rap...
Didn't the racists of the 50's also complain about that "jungle music" poisoning America's youth and creating uneducated delinquents and miscreants of them?
The biggest impediment to education is lack of money (thanks in large part to the second and third biggest impediments).
Tied for the second biggest impediment are parents politicizing education in an effort to keep thier children ignorant of the real world and "protect thier way of life" and parents who refuse to parent thier children responsibly.
The third biggest impediment is gov't pandering to impediments number two, instituting policies based on that pandering and creating impediment number one. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:00:21 PM | My 11th grade psychology teacher said it best. High school is nothing more than a day care for teenagers. It doesn't teach you much of anything you really need in the real world. That's why most good jobs require a college degree.
Public schools could use an overhaul in my opinion. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:27:05 PM |
My 11th grade psychology teacher said it best. High school is nothing more than a day care for teenagers. It doesn't teach you much of anything you really need in the real world. That's why most good jobs require a college degree.
That is really only true if you expect to have a career beyond 'blue collar'/trades/service industry.
Beyond that, a great many jobs (at least at entry level) which demand degrees don't actually REQUIRE them as a necessity to be able to perform the duties. The demand for degrees evolved in many workplaces out of the boom in university attendance in the 60's and 70's when businesses realized they could get more highly educated workers for the same wage as high school graduates (at entry level) and also allowed them to expend less time and resources in 'grooming' the next generation of managers. This led to a vicious circle, competition for 'the best and brightest' led to increases in average starting wages which reinforced the employer demands for higher education. As a result, "starting at the bottom and working your way to the top" straight out of high school, in most non-manual labor/non-service jobs, went the way of the dodo. | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 8:29:19 PM |
Just read the statistics
The Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development places the United States 18th among 36 nations with regards to education.
The curriculum given to the high school kids in the USA is what students in my country would have learned in grade school. The big difference is that the USA teens are still unable to comprehend what the children in my country have mastered years prior.
Landra,
If you take another look at that report, you will also note that the United States not only ranked halfway down the list, but most other industrialized countries rated higher. In the most recent results I saw, the U.S. not only ranked last of all industrialized nations, but also behind a few "Third World" countries to boot. Yet the apologists continue to make excuses, most lately poo-pooing the true importance of education. I think they think so-called street smarts will get them by anything. Foolish.
here is a 8TH GRADE TEST. from1895.......over 100 yrs ago.......it was pretty much standard for the country...........wonder how many graduates could pass it now?............shoot........how many TEACHERS could pass it today?
Raxarsr,
Kind of gives a whole new meaning to "I only had an eighth grade education", doesn't it?
I doubt most college students could answer those questions today without internet access.
I even hear kids today who skated through to the end of high school running around proclaiming that they have a "high school degree". DEGREE??? Oh, c'mon - get serious... | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 9:00:31 PM | Just reading some of the posts from the younger generations on POF is proof enough for me that our schools aren't very effective.
It isn't the fault of the teachers either, if anything it is the complete lack of discipline at home and in class. The juvenile mentality only truly understands one thing: if you don't do as you're told, you get your a$$ blistered with a paddle. When you take away the physical consequences for misbehaving you get exactly what we have in the USA in 2009..... a no fear attitude, and no respect for authority! | |
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| Are the U.S. public schools really that bad?
Posted: 10/8/2009 9:24:49 PM | When you take away the physical consequences for misbehaving you get exactly what we have in the USA in 2009..... a no fear attitude, and no respect for authority!
Beg to differ.
I have a passion for working with the 'unworkable' kids in the classroom. I love getting to know the 'trouble-makers'. Once those bad boys know they're safe with me, there is no problem with discipline. I don't have to hit them to get them to comply--they police each other, and they're very protective of me.
I have, on occasion, reminded one of them that my foot will fit up their ass, but I've never had to prove it. I am able to quell dissent from across the room merely by raising an eyebrow at the offender. True story.
Hitting kids might feel good for a while, but I'm not convinced that it's the most effective way of disciplining.
I've learned that a sense of humor, willingness to help, and being absolutely honest accomplishes more than threats (even though my foot WILL fit) and corporal punishment.
One of the best things a kid has ever said to me was this: "G--you scare the shit out of me, but I love you!" We had just the right balance of respect and mutual adoration.
But then, I've only been doing this for 30 years... | |
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