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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 2:45:49 PM | Einstein said: "Technology has surpassed humanity".
Technology seems to hit the ground running.
Will our dependence on technology be the making or undoing of us?
Is it a 'given' that once the starter pistol is fired, the gradient of technological advancement leaves a species development in the dust where it will destroy itself and default back to word 'primitive'?
... At some time, somewhere in the universe, our level of technology may have been reached before.. Would they have asked themselves the same question? | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 2:56:32 PM | Sure I have little doubt that this has happened repeatedly... Thus history repeats itself...
It is the same with the draw of power over civilization, it gets top heavy, and no longer has control over anything so in crumbles, this has happened to the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, et al... Hitler was one of last examples of being over powered..
MY point is that to much of anything that gets OUT of balanced causes a problem... When is to much technology to much??? Could it be when it is killing the place it lives on, like earth? Destroying resources one after another, where the rain fall is no longer a good event...
In this universe did they have to eject from their planet because they killed it, and like locus have to move on to another planet to start the process all over again...It is only speculation, however is the question can be asked, time and again it can be demonstrated to exist...
So is the question have we reached that point??? Are we to a point where technology has surpassed us??? Hmmm I'd say when AI starts taking over the rule of humans, and no longer sees humans, or biological anything needed any more, then we have gone TO FAR.... | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 3:09:34 PM | Einstein also stated:
“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” He was a huge proponent of world peace.
For a man of science, he was also a man that held very humane core values; I've little doubt the man was correct in his forecast. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 4:19:02 PM | It usually is NOT the technology nor the civilization that has that that destroys itself. It is mor eoften than not an outside influence. (Barbarians at the gate!) Greece, Rome, most of the ancient cultures fell to overwhelming odds to people less technologically advanced.
This could happen to the States. Let's use China as a "for instance". There is well over a BILLION Chinese...many of them undereducated by US standards. China is not quite as technologically advanced as the States. Yet...they could overwhelm the States by sheer force of numbers.
Their costs for running a war would be less per soldier than what the Americans could field. An AK-47 there costs something like 25 bucks. Add several ammunition clips. A simple armband to identify them with (or those cheap black pyjamas) and there is a "standing army" of over three million. A short boat hop, or air ride, and they could swarm the west coast and drive America back to the plains easily. Then it would be a simple matter for them to roll over the Americans from there, once they have consolidated their new territory. Japan could have esily done this IF they had not decided to try to cripple the American fleet first. They had that option and rejected it at the insistance of a certain Japanese Admiral who wanted a bit of glory for himself, rather than placing the country before his own ambitions. (thank god for idiots!)
So...no technologically advanced civilizations need not destroy themselves. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 4:48:39 PM | | It's well known that every great civilisation started off working hard, rose, got rich, got lazy, became corrupt and decadent, then got weaker and weaker, until finally they were consumed, by enemies from within and without. It's not technology that does this. It's getting lazy when you get to be rich which does this. But technology helps you get rich, and it seems that every great civilisation got lazy when it got rich. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 6:06:12 PM | | There is no way to predict what will happen to us based on previous examples because the technology is too different. By tomorrow morning we could all be dead if things happen to go wrong. That's a big difference. The ever present threat of annihilation is a new parameter. In general without a single catastrophe you have the effects of chemical disruption of ecosystems and weather patterns. Then you add in proliferation of weapons including biological agents. Then you figure in the massive unrest in populations starved of resources. The empire of yesteryear that fell is a different thing than a global collapse or Armageddon. I think that whatever gets invented eventually gets used to its most terrible potential. The final straw in my pessimism is the fact that on the small scale of individual relationships, be it within a family, at work, neighbors, or romance, people act out the habit of mutual destruction from very trivial arsenals. The motivation to destroy out of anger and frustration seems primary. Thinking the human race could coexist with such an array of weapons and given its larder of toxins, when you can't even get a man and woman to agree about who pays for coffee on a date, just seems incredible to me. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 6:09:01 PM | Scorpio - I finally get to agree with your 100% 
Although, according to Gared Diamond's Collapse, many of the lesser ones succumbed to environmental mismanagement. I never figured if that was a part of the agenda for the book, but I was disappointed that he didn't really address the major civilizations of history. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/12/2009 7:21:24 PM | My example was based upon power, which power has been the motivating factor to the destruction...
Technology and the search to improve upon it has repeatedly been a killer on a small scale... So we have to think is it such a threat that Koreans want nuclear weapons??? YES, it is a threat, because even they want to feel power... They have an ax to grind and their grudge is just as deep...
I do believe we can continue with "progressive technology" and it become destructive, many movies depict this, NOT just for entertainment, but also as a way to bring fear.
The STORY of Atlantis is so popular because technology and misuse of it was supposed to be the mitigating factor in Atlantias full demise and destruction... This is an extremely OLD story, but one that has served to bring either fear, OR a reminder of the misuse of technology...
Once again any time a power structure goes out of balance it leaves itself to destruction of some type... Power was to heavily given to wall street and bankers, which was a sore spot with JFK.. Imagine how it has been a destructive force already...
We may get inside upheaval... It is hard to say, because even poor, can be very educated in the use of technology...
I know, sin against sin to being up MOVIE and Lore... However these are the very things that have been used for a long time as a means to help people watch for a balance... It is brought about by fear, but it has been so affective... People FEAR not making it to heaven, why can't something MORE concrete and seeable work the same???
VVVVV Pretty much, kind of how it always has been...never thinking of the future generations... WHY these people in the NOW aren't planning on being thereVVVVVVVv | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:21:56 AM |
we are just a bunch of "intelligent" idiots.
Yes!...and after several thousand years of repeating the same stupid mistakes over and over, I think it's high time we "smartened up"!! | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/13/2009 12:17:16 PM | Technological civilizations destroy themselves? Sure, that can happen. A technological civilization is not an isolated incident. It is also a social, economic and political civilization too (as far as technology is manifested in our world) so to examine technology as a "root cause" of self-destructive society would have to consider the other factors which are quite nearly impossible to divorce from technology anyway.
Technology does not "appear", it does not have a natural state, or a natural law. Certain technologies are chosen to be researched. Improved upon, discarded. Sought out. All considered on the basis of what they can reveal to the society considering them (politically, economically and socially)
I'm in agreement with Scorpio. You can have a social/economic "rich" society without technology, and it still follows that prosperity is clipped in the heels by a fall due to complacency.
Technology is a way of revealing. It doesn't create anything new, it works with existent principles and reveals them in different ways. Even if some forms did display a Nihilistic savagery, it does not change the fact that principle existed long before the technology made it more visible. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/13/2009 2:23:41 PM |
It usually is NOT the technology nor the civilization that has that that destroys itself. It is mor eoften than not an outside influence. (Barbarians at the gate!) Greece, Rome, most of the ancient cultures fell to overwhelming odds to people less technologically advanced.
Simply not true my friend. Rome fell as a result of it's own socio-cultural ineptitude and the resulting social decay, as evidenced in the near spontaneous rise of numerous "urban salvation cults", eg. Christianity, throughout the Empire.
Barbarians weren't responsible for the ever growing under-class that came top populate the urban ghettoes of Rome's trade cities. Barbarians weren't repsonsible for forcing nations into union, or for Rome over extending it's reach. Barbarians weren't resonsible for the class snobbery and various other forms of socio-cultural alienation that came to plague the Empire, or for the fact that natives of the Empire had little interest in defending it and so forced the Empire to rely increasingly on foreigners to fight for them. And barbarians weren't responsible for the assassination of over 15 Emperors within the space of the single century.
In fact, what Germanic barbarians are responsible for is being PUSHED by the Huns out of Eastern Europe on through the lines of Rome. These tribes, even when they came together in alliances were smaller than the population of the city of Rome alone, to say nothing of the Imperial might of the Empire itself. In it's Imperial heyday, Rome, with it's large standing army of professional soldiers, had little problem beating these barbarians back.
What these barbarians did was protect the abandoned province of Britain, protect the abandoned province of Gaul, and come into rulership over Spain and Italy, propping Western Civilization back up on it's feet and ensuring that the Western Empire would enjoy at least another couple of centuries of existence.
The idea that barbarians destroyed Roman or any other civilization is simply the historical propaganda of people who are disinclined to take responsbility for their own mistakes, and so arrogant in their assumptions of superiority that they need a scapegoat to explain their own failures. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/13/2009 11:42:56 PM |
so we are just a bunch of "intelligent" idiots.
Not sure we're all thatintelligent, and the jury's still out on whether or not intelligence is a positive evolutionary factor. I'd call us a bunch of tool using animals. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/14/2009 12:55:22 PM | We white Germanic Anglo Saxons are not Romans, nor are we Greeks. We are not descended from them.
2000 years ago our white European ancestors, commonly known as the Gauls, known by the Greeks and Romans as " Barbarians ", lived about the same lifestyle as the American Indians and the Africans of the same time period.
Why did the Western European people go on to dominate world ? Western European/American culture is what everybody in the world aspires to today. Everyone, no matter where they are from, wants what we have...... why ?
There's only one answer. Superior technology.
It wasn't a superior morality or superior genetics, or superior intellect.
It was access to superior technology and a willingness to cold-blooded murder.
It is a willingness to sail around the world, to a place we really don't like, murder all the natives, and install air-conditioning.
Technology is only a tool. It does not signify any moral or intellectual superiority in any way. We recognized, developed, and took advantage of it, to lord it over the rest of the world.
Technology does not destroy anything or anyone.
But, small-mindedness and the misuse of technology can. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/14/2009 1:05:24 PM | Nip, I;d have to take a good look at that, because the Japanese are very technologically advanced, in fact where does all the really cool electronic stuff come from, not just Bill Gates...
IT could be argued that they just put the stuff together, really, well that still means they have the blue prints to these gadgets... As well they are very adept at their own electronics creations and research...
IT takes some sort of smarts to create these things, and saying other wise, well that isn't logical... Computers aren't an easy mistake... Just saying... | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/14/2009 5:42:04 PM | Technology will not destroy man. Technology is a tool used by sentient species' in order to meet an end result. So in affect, man will destroy man, using technology as a weapon.
There is no evidence though that highly technological civilizations(relatively) were destroyed. Lemurians, Mayans, and Atlantians left no evidence of extinction behind, simply gone without a trace. It is then plausible to believe that instead of being destroyed, they left. Left could mean many things. Cosmic travel, time travel, inter-dimensional travel, and even spiritual ascension.
That's not to say any of these proposed theories are true. They're just theories. But believe technology is an absolutely corruptible and destructive force is unfair. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/14/2009 6:27:54 PM | from post By: nexthyme on 10/14/2009 4:05:24 PM:
"....the Japanese are very technologically advanced,"
Yes they are. Myself along with probably two billion other men are waiting for them to replicate a woman perfectly, from a man's perspective. Naturally, this would mean that most men would no longer have the time nor inclination for war or destruction. It would be the key to world peace and gradual depopulation. Even the planet would heave a sigh of relief. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/14/2009 8:07:46 PM | I wanted to duck in here, and state emphatically, as an historian:
History does NOT repeat itself. That's a myth. Historians repeat themselves, history, and the true past that history tries to represent, does not. The reason many people have fooled themselves into believing it does, is that they look for patterns (as seems to be our nature), find similarities, and pounce on them proclaiming a repeat.
That said, in response to the idea that technology might over throw us, or that our current civilization might be overthrown in the same way the Romans were, or the Greeks, or the Chin dynasty, or any other named group...nnnot likely. Unless real aliens show up at our planetary gates, we have no powerful barbarians available on the planet who can 'overthrow' our civilization.
Someone suggested we might screw up our world economy enough to throw us backwards somewhat, and that's another maybe. One of the things that is true today, that was NOT true in the past, is that we now have a Global Memory of our progress and our technology. We will not go through having to re-invent, say, how to use concrete (like we did after the fall of the Roman Empires). Thus we could very well cause ourselves to go through a long economic depression, with attendant cultural rot, decadence, starvation, disease, and so forth. Life could get pretty cruddy for many of us, but we will NOT go backwards technologically again, unless we REALLY blow away the entire intelligentsia, AND destroy our production facilities, AND discontinue education.
Again, history does NOT show a repeating cycle of high technological societies destroying themselves, or being destroyed from without. It shows a SEQUENTIAL development of various aspects of technology, which were unable to respond to new challenges well enough, and gave way to different strong cultures with DIFFERENT technology. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/19/2009 12:40:20 PM | | don't be scrrred. ALL civilizations are destroyed. This one shall be no different. It doesn't even matter if they destroy themselves, they will be destroyed one way or another. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/22/2009 8:55:45 AM | | Can you change your question to a multiple choice type.So that one can just pick a letter ? My answer to your question is; Technology is a double edged sword. We are increasingly more dependant on technology. Which makes us vulnerable. Especially,our demands for energy. Obviously,Einstein realized this early in his life and tried to do something about it. According to Michio Kaku. We're a type 0 (on a scale of 0,1,2,3) civilization. | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/22/2009 8:44:42 PM | (quote)Will our dependence on technology be the making or undoing of us?
This is my first posting on the forum and I'm trying to add a quote from "brightspark" I hope it works ...lol. Also wanted to add ....great thread.
Whenever you introduce a new “technology” it changes humanity and societies and it effects how we evolve. If you look back over technological discoveries, for sure they have made human life “easier” but you have to weigh the cost and the influence of such instruments. People are and always will be the making or undoing of us …regardless of technology. It’s how the people use things and what they are used for that really matters. Most technologies are too often used with “corrupt” intentions and the for the benefit of a select few instead of for the masses.
So where are we now in this “technological” age and where are we going? I recently listened to a lecture by Neil Postman and he strongly suggested that when a new technology is introduced we must ask ourselves these questions.
What is the problem to which this technology is the solution?
Who benefits from this technology?
What new problems might be created by this technology?
Which people or institution might be most seriously harmed by a technical solution?
What changes in language are being enforced by this new technology, what is being lost or gained by such changes?
What sort of people and institutions require special political and economic power because of technical change?
I’ve been applying some of these questions in my ponderings …it’s been enlightening.
Peace, the FairyHealer | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:09:08 PM | Hey yna
I have to dis-agree with you on your scenario of a US/china war. In the first place, it will NEVER happen. The phrase "too big to let collapse" has been bandied about, but it really is true with the US. I agree with others that we are losing our production base. Where we aren't losing it is in places where extreme quality is needed. Back to china. Lets say we piss them off to the point they declare war on us. What happens? You have to remember that a very famous general once said that an army travels on it stomach. The amount of support that this amount of troops would require is mind boggling. Having an ocean on either side of our borders is a very good thing. And, I am certain that both Mexico and Canada will stop any potential invader from the south and the north................................... :)
But, lets say, they really are silly, try to back up their declaration of war. What happens? First of all, all of those troop carriers would be rendered fish food even as they left the chinese coasts...... We do have the most advanced subs.............. AND THEN:
1. we stop buying crap from them. We still need most of the stuff we buy from them, but now we either have to have it made in India, or BACK IN THE USA!!! Americans are very enterprising, and when they sniff a profit to be made, stand back. There will be all kinds of manufacturing businesses spring up, hiring........ AMERICANS!!!!! This option is almost necessary, as we would probably be cut off from getting goods from India to begin with by the chinese. The result? Almost no unemployment, and rising wages........ Not a bad deal for us.
2. This is the part I like best..... All of the money we owe them???? EFF THEM, they never get it, why should we pay them, they will have declared WAR on us........
I really believe the chinese have played out this scenario more than once, which is probably why they they want to stop taking paper from us..................
Not bad.......
Paul K | |
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| Technological civilizations destroy themselves?...
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:59:22 PM | I have to dis-agree with you on your scenario of a US/china war. In the first place, it will NEVER happen. The phrase "too big to let collapse" has been bandied about, but it really is true with the US.
Paul K quote in reply to yna
Well Paul I have to dis-agree with that statement because the US is not too big to let collapse and define collapse? Millions of people out of work and losing their houses …. Inflation going through the roof where nobody in the US will be able to feed themselves or their family? The US dollar falling …. And who knows just how far it will go? And what about the people, will they sit back and let this happen without protests? The US is going somewhere no-one ever predicted and yet it’s gonna happen ….it IS happening right now. Of course this event won’t just affect the people of the US but …the WORLD. So what does a country do when faced with such a situation? Go to war …of course for war is Big Business. Also I wouldn’t be too surprised if the talks of Canada, USA and Mexico merging and becoming one United force happens. I think we are all headed into scary territory ….and I think that the US is leading the way ….sigh
Peace & Hope ….the FairyHealer ….+*+*+* | |
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