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Show ALL Forums  > Single Parents  > A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??      Home login  
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 4408joseph
Joined: 1/10/2008
Msg: 1
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Okay without putting my court experience bias into this, please tell me what you really think.

Would a judge order kids to be allowed to move to another country if spouse refuses to agree in a divorce

I have a friend(J) going through a nasty divorce with (A)that at the age of, (both) 40, has uprooted the perfect world. High school sweethearts. Two kids, 1/2 million dollar house,no affairs or drugs. From the out-side pretty much perfect world.

When (J) filed for divorce, (A), went for the throat. Managed to get emergency custody of kids, but was ordered to keep spouse with house/utilities/car payment paid for, and a phone call everyday to both children ages 8 & 9.

After 18 months (J) just wants the kids, and will give up all to house/moneies/etc , and asked that they be able to move from USA to France, and agrees daughters can return for 2 weeks up to 4 times a year and though they have no connections to France, but when vacationed as a family there 2 years ago, did not want to come home after several weeks. (A) came back to USA and (J) returned with kids 3 1/2 months later after treats.

Upon a pick-up at the airport. A and J get into a big fight and divorce is filed.

Since Divorce/Custody trial is only 3 weeks away...Question are!!

Would a Judge in the USA every order this?? Has anyone ever heard of this? And what are thoughts? Fare request or unreasonable... (A) will never agree , it will have to be court ordered.

THANKS
 carolann0308
Joined: 12/9/2006
Msg: 2
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 8:09:42 PM
I have no idea, but most divorced couples have to get permission from the other parent in order to leave the state or country.
 diamondincnd
Joined: 1/17/2006
Msg: 3
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 8:20:49 PM
I'm not to sure the rules there in the USA but up here In Canada there is custody and guardianship both meaning different things. Custody is were the children live and guardian ship is the decision making abilities. No matter who has custody if guardianship is split then I know here in BC Canada any how the custodial parent cant even take the kids out side the province let a loan the country to live with out the other parents consent.

BUT if one parent has full guardianship then that parent just might be able to take them out with out the other parents consent. (Don't quote me to that one though).
 applesn2pie
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 4
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 8:43:53 PM
[Okay without putting my court experience bias into this, please tell me what you really think.]

Hmmmmm... Looks like you are fishing to me.
Thumbs down buddy.
 4408joseph
Joined: 1/10/2008
Msg: 5
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 8:55:28 PM

Hmmmmm... Looks like you are fishing to me.
Thumbs down buddy.


Fishing?.. Naw. I have 20 years experience in the State and Fed law. My case hase been closed for 5 years. I have 100% full custody and Mom has had "Parental Rights" removed. Both myself and daughter have passports.(no I'm not going to france)

However,I am limited firsthand to but a 1/2 dozen Family Law cases I've helped with, and none asking of this request in MY state.

Therefore I posted this without the thoughts I gave my friend, and the hopes of getting some useful input, and also to allow my friend to see imputs of others with simular input to the same situation.

THANKS
 KarmicEvolution
Joined: 11/22/2008
Msg: 6
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 9:09:21 PM
No idea... and I somehow doubt most people here will know.

Theres not a lot of people with the finances to move to France randomly and sadly a half a million dollar house isnt as much of a feat any more at the price of houses these days.

I personally cant see it being allowed if there are no ties or reasons to move to another country. Plus have they even looked into if they can get visas to live in France?
 diamondincnd
Joined: 1/17/2006
Msg: 7
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 9:10:32 PM
If you have 20 years experience in law I would assume that you would already know the answer to your question.
 4408joseph
Joined: 1/10/2008
Msg: 8
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 10:02:38 PM

If you have 20 years experience in law I would assume that you would already know the answer to your question.


Yes, I am 99.99% sure the answer. I already informed my friend of that. I was first upset when this morning when they told me they sent notice to the court of this request. But as I digested this thought I realized, it's always good to set the bar high. Stranger things have happened, and my friend thinks money is the only motive for the revenge, and by willing to give up the house (middle-upper end in this zip code) as well as other financial funds and such an " order" will be given.

However, points like message 7 and the visa should shine some light for my friend.

For message 4...You are close. As their spouses attorney is a "pit bull" the emergency custody "order" has my friend striped of visitation of the children, because of "Flight Risk" They have not seen the daughters in almost 18 months, and when they went to the school to seem them, got arrested.

The courts did not ask them to surrender their passport yet though.
 Tomau
Joined: 5/9/2009
Msg: 9
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 10:05:44 PM
Since they were married and most likely he was named on childrens birth certificates, nope no Judge would do that unless parental rights on one side were terminated. It is called Kidnapping if she leaves with the kids on him.

End of story.
 4408joseph
Joined: 1/10/2008
Msg: 10
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/19/2009 10:49:59 PM

Since they were married and most likely he was named on childrens birth certificates, nope no Judge would do that unless parental rights on one side were terminated.


Nope, not true.

(A)agrees, then Judge could easily sign the order.. This is not likely.


It is called Kidnapping if she leaves with the kids on him.


I don't believe I said the gender of my friend anywhere.

You are correct in th sense that if they were to leave NOW, that the courts are envolved it would in fact be kidnapping, if they did not have the courts permission.

Most states upon simply filing for custody in the order ,even be fine print, state it's illegal to even leave your own state with the child/ren while custody dispute is active..
 notatowniegirl
Joined: 4/18/2006
Msg: 11
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 4:34:39 AM
I don't think this will happen for your friend. You're right, stranger things have happened but the likelihood is next to nil.

There is no pressing reason for your friend to move to France other than "the kids liked it there on vacation once"... no family support, no job with a MUCH higher earning potential, etc. Secondly, if your friend is willing to give up the money, how is he/she going to be able to afford the move and to live there? I'm pretty sure that this person being willing to give up the money and house is going to be seen as little more than a pity ploy to make the person offering look "good" and to set up future demands. And it's going to backfire.

"See? I love the kids sooooo much I'd do aaaanyyything for them. I'll even give up allll this so that the a-hole will let me do something WONDERFUL like move to a foreign country!".

Pffft.. whatever. If this parent wanted to show that they were a good parent, they would try to foster a good relationship between the children and the other parent. Especially since there are no underlying issues other than those between the parents.

I'm willing to bet that your friend is asking for something outrageous in order to ask for something less so in the future, and hopes that they will be more likely to succeed if the lesser "offer" will be seen as more reasonable in comparison.

Remember, when bartering, always ask for the impossible and work your way down.

*shakes her head at how "parents" will throw their children under a bus in order to f*ck with the other parent*
 carterscutie85
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 12
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 4:55:16 AM
It is highly unlikely that a judge would allow this.

Moving to a country that doesn't even speak English and only seeing one parent every once in a while is not beneficial to the children. That's what the judge will look at when deciding. Judges generally don't care if the parent wants to move for whatever reason, it's about what's best for the kids-and in this case it would not be. I think it is extremely selfish to try and move the kids out of the country. Here these children are, their parents are getting a divorce, that alone turned their world upside down. Now one parent wants to move to a country that doesn't even the only language they've ever known? Can u imagine how hard it would be for those 2 children to adjust to all this at once?
 packagedealx3
Joined: 2/4/2006
Msg: 13
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 6:22:23 AM
The children are not being moved for a reason ergo if the other parent does not want an ocean between he and his kids, the judge is not going to allow it. A judge might lean toward it if the mother was moving back with relatives but even in the states and moving to another state, most court orders specify that the kid(s) cannot be moved more than 150 miles, if that and your friend can request that they cannot be moved from the city because he wants full or 50% custody.

And seriously, the opinions of children that young, and the fact that they didn't want to leave their idyllic vacation spot are not going to be taken seriously because number one, this idea was predicated by the notion that both parents would be living in France with them. Hell, every time I go on vacation I think this would be a kewl place to live and as yet, haven't actually moved to any of those places.

If the family was military, a judge might consider such an arrangement but again, that would be because one parent had no choice about moving which is not ordinarily the case with regular jobs even though failing to accept a transfer could be committing career suicide.

I assume that you have advised your friend to read the child support and custody statutes for himself so he knows whether his attorney is worth a rat's butt or not. Most judges in my experience follow pretty closely to the guidelines and do something extraordinary only when the situation warrants it. With both parents wanting to be involved in the childrens' lives, a judge would tend to favor joint custody.
 Navigator6
Joined: 3/5/2008
Msg: 14
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 7:29:16 AM
I'm sorry, but what's with all of the cryptic BS? (A), (J), "I don't believe I said the gender of my friend anywhere.", blah, blah, blah.

Having 20 years experience in the State and Fed law, you know more about this than anyone else here. So, what is your whole point?? You asked a straight YES or NO question. You didn't ask for opinions or how people would feel or react if their ex proposed such a thing and then you picked apart the responses you received.

You're either incredibly bored or incredibly starved for attention. You also need to learn basic 4th grade spelling and punctuation. IDK, perhaps you should stick to your brilliant idea of designing a pill that will make seamen (sic) taste like chocolate! FYI: men are already able to alter the taste of their semen (spelled correctly) just by eating certain foods.

Oh, and just so that I don't stray from the original question: It would depend greatly on the circumstances, but without one parent giving up legal parental rights, the answer is a resounding... NO.


Hmmmmm... Looks like you are fishing to me.
Thumbs down buddy.

BINGO!
 WindRoper
Joined: 7/24/2007
Msg: 15
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 7:31:26 AM
I have not witnessed or heard of any such cases altho I'm sure a few exist. Just how similar they are is even more questionable. It sounds to me that there are no allegations of unfitness being made. J has no reason to move to France other than she likes it. It is not necessary to her survival, such as employment purposes. I believe the court will see it as a punitive maneuver.But I've never been involved in a case where people have more money than sense. Sometimes I think such folks get a whole different court system from the rest of us.
 thatusernameistaken
Joined: 5/4/2009
Msg: 16
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 8:48:03 AM
If the whole story is what you have said here, then no, the courts won't allow the move.

In order to move children of a divorce any substantial distance you would normally need to prove a need to do so. So unless J is abusive and has lost or is losing any access, or if A can somehow prove that the move is NEEDED for work or the such, then NO, the judge won't let it happen.
 m_church
Joined: 11/8/2007
Msg: 17
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 9:02:28 AM
You know, if people stopped fighting each other through their kids the world would be a happier place...
When my Ex asked if I'd allow her to take my son to another country to visit family... I even gave her a signed (and witnessed) letter saying she had my permission, and my contact info so as to minimise her problems at the borders...
By not being an ass to my Ex and her not being a **** to me... we have a well adjusted kid....
Anyone who fights each other through the kids, should be charged with child abuse....
 worldclassman
Joined: 2/7/2009
Msg: 18
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 9:16:48 AM
Technically, no judge should (or would) allow a woman to move her kids out of the country when the other parent is staying.

However, if the judge is a woman you can't count on them to be fair and rational in divorce and custody issues. Women are genetically predispositioned to be hyper-emotional and irrational and the system more than often backs them up just because they have vaginas between their legs and not franks and beans.

Until state legislators pull their head out of their a$$e$ there will never be any fairness in the court system for men when it involves child custody.
 thatusernameistaken
Joined: 5/4/2009
Msg: 19
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 9:44:42 AM
Church - The OP is talking about a permanent move for the kids, not just a holiday.

Worldclassman - The judge in all of our proceedings was a female.
 carterscutie85
Joined: 5/31/2007
Msg: 20
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 10:49:27 AM
Actually, IMHO, female judges are a bit tougher than male judges. They know how women are and can see through their tricks and manipulation better than some male judges can. At least in the criminal cases I have seen (and I have seen a few) that's the impression I got.
 WindRoper
Joined: 7/24/2007
Msg: 21
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/20/2009 11:40:33 AM

However, if the judge is a woman you can't count on them to be fair and rational in divorce and custody issues. Women are genetically predispositioned to be hyper-emotional and irrational and the system more than often backs them up just because they have vaginas between their legs and not franks and beans.



Christ on a crutch!

I sooooo believe the beans part. Apparently you've b****ed about women so long and hard that you deflated your nuts.

And I love how you say "no judge should (or would) allow a woman" to do so AS IF no man would EVER consider doing such a thing. Get a grip.
 bernta
Joined: 9/3/2007
Msg: 22
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/21/2009 2:39:30 PM
Isn't it funny that we talk about women as judges or men as judges and how they pre-judge things for one reason or another. And yet, most of us here have already pre-judged WHICH parent is attempting to take the children to France when we have not been given that piece of information. Interesting.

And, OT, a parent can't even get a passport for a child under fourteen without the other parents signature, even if divorced. (I know, these children already have them. Not my point.) If the law says both parents have to sign for the passport, it would logically follow that both parents would have to agree to the move. (But then, since when is the law logical? ) That is the only way I would see it happening, if BOTH parents agreed to it.
 amkeli
Joined: 10/18/2009
Msg: 23
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/21/2009 9:10:47 PM
No, a US judge will typically not allow this. I lived 10 years in England--while there married a Brit, had a child who holds dual citizenship (US/UK). Then we moved to the States. When we separated, a judge decreed that, as my son was a US citizen (courts do not have to acknowledge any other citizenship), then his father would have to visit him here...period. Conversely, if I ever took him to England, even for a visit, the courts there could decree that, as a UK citizen, he could not leave the country. So naturally, my son won't be going there until he's much older.
Bottom line--without a lot of ugly (and expensive) international court orders, the courts here should not be able to insist on international visitation. And on the off-chance that both parties are agreeable to international visitation, it's incumbent upon the parent who moved away to provide transportation costs, chaperoning of flights, etc. But if the local parent is your friend I would STRONGLY ADVISE them NOT to agree to this. Once the kids are out of the country there is very little our court system can do to ensure they are returned when expected, if at all.
 4408joseph
Joined: 1/10/2008
Msg: 24
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A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/23/2009 12:23:59 AM
Nothing cryptic about finding trolls ...




- The OP is talking about a permanent move for the kids, not just a holiday.
"Exactly."




Isn't it funny that we talk about women as judges or men as judges and how they pre-judge things for one reason or another. And yet, most of us here have already pre-judged WHICH parent is attempting to take the children to France when we have not been given that piece of information.


Thank You!.. I am actually trying to seek "real" imput from ones here at POF that might have some "real" dealings with this arena of Family Courts...i.e amkeli

I did my best to leave gender out of this.Courts are to work judicially blind to gender. Thought this would also stop the AZZ-suming trolls free and keep the ? free of gender bashing.

My friend is at their wits end... The case has not even been to trail and it's over 18 months old.

Anyone that's want through a nasty divorce and has their life back together knows that it is totally emotional draining ...

I did tell my friend there was NO Way the Judge would allow their request. I ask that they site a precedented case.
I posted this question here,because...

They would get to see input from maybe others, also to allow me to gain some useful information to show them to stop spending time,energy, and resources seeking this endevor.One that's probability is unherd of by me...Again my work in the Family Courts are limited to a handful of cases, and my mind boggles at times the way they operate.

The speech difference, France even allowing citizenship,International enforcement are a few that didn't even pop into my mind...

So to those posters THANKS!

Post note:

You know, if people stopped fighting each other through their kids the world would be a happier place...


I agree 100%...I preached this years ago when I first joined here ...
However A rainbow/butterfly world full of magical unicorns divorce is not the REAL world.
 4 garrett02
Joined: 2/4/2009
Msg: 25
A divorce order to allow kids to move from country??
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:22:17 AM
yes a judge may ok this request if a job is substancial for the parant has family to help and will provide transportation to other spouses home for visitation
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