| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 2:46:12 AM | From the dreaded Daily Mail today :)
Determined to improve manners at his 900-pupil secondary school, headmaster Kevin Harrison decided to pass on a lesson from the past. He reinstated the tradition that pupils get to their feet when he enters the classroom. But yesterday he found himself at the centre of an extraordinary stand-off with a parent after a 15-year-old boy defiantly remained seated. Daniel Walton was suspended from the school, Macclesfield High in Cheshire, when he barged past a teacher after being ordered to sit in an 'isolation' room for refusing to stand. And rather than remonstrate with his son, jobless 40-year-old Tim Walton is supporting him. He says Daniel was entirely justified in remaining seated because 55-year-old Mr Harrison, who joined the school as acting head this year, has yet to earn the pupils' respect. Mr Walton, a father of three, insisted that when the four-and-a-half-day suspension ends tomorrow Daniel will still refuse to stand for the head. 'I've had enough of my kids being punished because of these so-called rules which have nothing to do with their education,' he said.
Here is the article in full
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221868/Stand-pupil-refuses-rise-headmaster-enters-classroom.html
What do you think about this?
Do you believe the boy should be made to stand and if so why?
Or do you believe the Father is right and if so why?
Thought it would make an interesting discussion as I believe times have changed so much even from when I was at school, we were always expected to stand for our Head Master and my mother would have been horrifed if I had been sent home for refusing to do so it seems manners and respect for people giving children their education is at an all time low with assaults on teachers and truancy seeming to be on the rise.
Links: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/oct/20/truancy-rate-rises
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4864668.stm
MORE ADDED -
Mr Walton said: 'The school sent a letter saying that I told Dan, "Kick the headteacher in the nuts if he kept you against your will".
'I think it's diabolical. My boy shouldn't be excluded for something I have said. I don't regret it.'
Row: When Mr Harrison reintroduced the standing up rule at Macclesfield High School in Cheshire, he was accused of being 'ridiculous' and 'heavy-handed'
He said his daughter also objected to another rule at the school - no make-up - and would tell the head 'where to get off'.
Further Question-
Is the father being delibertly flamable and are his children picking up their disrespect from him?
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:00:17 AM | What do you think about this?
I agree that respect is earned from equals but from people in authority and positions of responsibility it has already been earned for them to be in that position so should be given automatically.
Do you believe the boy should be made to stand and if so why?
The head master wants them to stand then they should stand. I don't agree with his argument not too. This lad is showing no respect for a basic rule and if he can't follow that then he should be excluded, principles are one thing but where are they being questioned.
Or do you believe the Father is right and if so why?
I think standing for a head master is a bit archaic and if I had a child I don't think I would particularly want them to have to stand on his entering the room but that is the rule and should be followed and I would support the suspension and make it very clear he will be standing in future.
The real world is full of stupid rules that as adults we have to follow. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:01:14 AM | We used to have to stand when our teacher came into class as well as the head teacher. It was about respect and discipline.
The boy's refusal to stand when it was made part of the rules shows he is immature and needs to do some serious growing up. If he was ever in a Court of Law and refused to stand when the judge entered he would be held in contempt of court. Any job this child goes on to do will have rules and regulations. I am sure most of us have worked for places where the rules seem pointless or you really didn't like them but the point is they are there and have to be obeyed. Failure to do so leads to disciplinary procedures.
The father isn't helping matters. He should be sitting down with his son and explaining that the rules are there and have to be adhered to. Encouraging him to rebel against what is basically a simple gesture of respect is setting him up for a lifetime of problems imo. Will he continue through life expecting the rules to be for everyone except him?
And the fathers comment that the teacher hasn't earned his respect as he has only been there a short while is a load of crap. The teacher has done all the relevant training and now earns not very much teaching little shits like his son who think disrupting the class is ok because he is so special he can just stick to the rules he wants to stick to. The boy then barged into another teacher on his way to the isolation room. Also not good behaviour.
Yes, children are sent to school for an education but they are also being prepared for the big wide world. Discipline, respect, time-keeping, doing the work you are meant to do etc, it all plays a part in introducing them to the working world. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:01:52 AM | I suppose the father isn't someone who has the manners to stand when a woman enters the room either, and not sit again until the woman is seated.
The Headteacher got it a bit wrong if he didn't explain that it was a mark of manners and if it was any respect, it was for the position and not for the person holding that position.
And if he really wanted to introduce the lessons of the past in respect of manners, he should have insisted on the "All Rise" for all adults, not just himself.
Someone has just lost out big time - and it isn't going to be the kid. Acting Head - but for how long? | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:03:24 AM | The head master wants them to stand then they should stand. I don't agree with his argument not too. This lad is showing no respect for a basic rule and if he can't follow that then he should be excluded, principles are one thing but where are they being questioned.
I think he should be made to stand its a school rule and by his father allowing him to bypass this rule I believe hes giving him an "easy ride".
I'm not sure how I feel about them mentioning that the father dosen't work, was that included to somehow show us "broken lower class britian" would they have included his job were he a Doctor for instance ?
The father isn't helping matters. He should be sitting down with his son and explaining that the rules are there and have to be adhered to. Encouraging him to rebel against what is basically a simple gesture of respect is setting him up for a lifetime of problems imo. Will he continue through life expecting the rules to be for everyone except him?
Yes, children are sent to school for an education but they are also being prepared for the big wide world. Discipline, respect, time-keeping, doing the work you are meant to do etc, it all plays a part in introducing them to the working world.
I think youre right I do believe his father is giving him far too easy a ride and making a rod for his own back in future when he gets the sack for being late "well it was only 10mins whats the problem" type attitude a lot of young adults seem to have. (myself excluded of course im perfect :p)
he Headteacher got it a bit wrong if he didn't explain that it was a mark of manners and if it was any respect, it was for the position and not for the person holding that position.
And if he really wanted to introduce the lessons of the past in respect of manners, he should have insisted on the "All Rise" for all adults, not just himself.
That was the rule at my school and one which was never challenged its a shame it seems to be outdated and the father seems to want his son to be seen as some kind of "victim" here. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:56:55 AM | The near total lack of respect that the younger generation has in this day and age is astounding. Even when I was at school, in the classes 5 years behind us, I could hear a change.
I have many friends who are teachers and i would say that 90% of those hate their job. They find the lack of respect and dicispline almost impossible to work with. Children know their rights, but are far to quick to impact on the rights of others, knowing that there are few retorts to their actions.
I fully support the head. The school pupil had two options, Stand or Sit, however his reason for sitting is hardly a valid reason. We need more head teachers like this and fewer troublemakers! | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 3:58:26 AM | http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/6398391/Father-backs-son-who-refused-to-show-head-respect.html
"Mr Harrison said Daniel was not excluded because he refused to stand.
“He has been excluded for four and a half days following an incident in which a member of staff was subjected to verbal abuse and a physical assault,”"
A little more info on the story from another paper.......... | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:22:51 AM | Mr Harrison said Daniel was not excluded because he refused to stand.
“He has been excluded for four and a half days following an incident in which a member of staff was subjected to verbal abuse and a physical assault,”"
I think that refers to the incident where he refused to stand was told to leave to go into solitary and pushed passed while verbally abusing a teacher on his way out.
I have many friends who are teachers and i would say that 90% of those hate their job.
The qualification schedule changed in 07 and many are dropping out now due to over legistlation and the need to provide yearly coursework - after you are qualified??! what other profession would require this? madness. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:49:59 AM |
The near total lack of respect that the younger generation has in this day and age is astounding. Even when I was at school, in the classes 5 years behind us, I could hear a change.
Totally agree, I'm of the same generation as you and I can remember noticing the change - when kids started to realise that they had more rights than the teachers. The difference between when our generation was at school 20-odd years ago and now is scary.
The fact that some parents even back their kids for rebelling against authority just sums up the general decline in society. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:59:48 AM | I was actually quite shocked when I read this in the paper this morning, I do not particularly consider myself from an old generation, however when I was at school we ALWAYS stood whenever a teacher entered the room.. yet alone a head teacher.
I fail to see why this boy's farther is even sticking up for him. Not meaning to sound self righteous or anything, but this article highlights what is wrong with Broken Britain.
There is a complete lack of respect for teachers at schools not only from the pupils, but also from their parents.
Back in my day, (gosh I am starting to sound rather old now eh?) if we were obtuse to a teacher or were in trouble at school, the teachers told our parents and then WE got another telling off when we got home!
This flagrant lack of respect for teachers means that people are not willing to learn AND that they have a systemic lack of respect for authority "programmed" into them.
Is it any wonder kids are causing chaos at shopping centres, and around town and that ASBOS are being handed out left right and centre. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 4:59:59 AM | | how can you expect todays young kids to have respect for there teachers when the latter has no power to chastise them and have any control over them..? this is the legacy the do gooders have put on our society by sticking there noses in and having corperal punishment and smacking unruly children banned...they will come on here and say its all down to the parents to teach the children respect blah blah..but that aint no fecking comfort to the teachers who are being beaten up by children or us adults who are shit scared to walk the streets at night cos of the fear of being mugged or abused by gangs of young chavs... | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:06:06 AM | Back in my day, (gosh I am starting to sound rather old now eh?) if we were obtuse to a teacher or were in trouble at school, the teachers told our parents and then WE got another telling off when we got home!
This flagrant lack of respect for teachers means that people are not willing to learn AND that they have a systemic lack of respect for authority "programmed" into them.
Is it any wonder kids are causing chaos at shopping centres, and around town and that ASBOS are being handed out left right and centre.
Im 28 and even when i was in secondary education 12yrs ago this wouldnt have happened we'd have been quite rightly dragged over the coals by our parents.
but that aint no fecking comfort to the teachers who are being beaten up by children or us adults who are shit scared to walk the streets at night cos of the fear of being mugged or abused by gangs of young chavs...
While teacher training in Lambeth i was spat at in the classroom when repremanding a 15yr old for having her feet on the desk while i was teaching she refused to put them down when asked on three occasions i sent her home, her mum dragged her back to school to apologise and threatened the girl with all sorts. After the mum had left the girls boyfriend spat at me, i refused to have him in my class again but if i had pushed her feet off the desk or retaliated against the boy i would have been suspended.
Ridiculous really. The parents attitude is what concerns me the most telling his son to kick the teacher in the balls is bad enough but to then stand by that statement is beyond belief really. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:07:14 AM | You have a point there chopper,
However when I was at school the teachers were not allowed to smack, slap or use any form of corporal punishment, yet we still respected the teachers.
I do not believe that "smacking" is the way forward, however something needs to be done, whether it is to teach parents how to parent, or to have some sort of "National Service" setup for unruly pupils?
I just do not know when and why Great Britain became Broken Britain, but I do know that if Children do not respect their teachers and that parents do not educate their children with manners and raise them to respect their teachers things will only get worse...
EDIT
I have just noticed your post Donna. I'm disgusted that you had to endure such disgusting behaviour from two school pupils in your class. I hope that you are now teaching with no serious issues from the kids.
You are right, back in our day we would not have dreamed at spitting at a teacher, yet alone actually doing that!
Is it me or are schools unable to expel troublesome pupils as easy these days? | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:09:32 AM | Sorry OP, but I read the article posted in full , and the headline paints a different picture.
"Stand-off over pupil who still refuses to rise when headmaster enters the classroom"
i.e. he was excluded for refusing to stand. The " barging" was not mentioned as a reason for exclusion, almost in passing.
IMO the sort of report/headline in the Mail does not help by sensationalising the story. In it's defence it didn't exactly endear me to the child's father either.
Maybe next week they will run a campaign on the rights of children to wear make up or hair gel to school, as they will suffer emotional trauma if they don't.
To be fair to teachers many do a great job, often in adversity, they need the support of parents not antagonism. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:13:58 AM | As someone said above, teachers/heads have worked for and earned to be respected. They have skills to teach, and pupils to learn these skills. If the kids don't want to learn, or even show any respect? Then what the hell are they doing in a place of education?
The cane was in my school, it did me no harm in growing up learning discipline. I'm fed up with it, the kids today don't know they're fecking born! Shame on the parents too, who were probably brought up on discipline. Lack of respect, no discipline and they wonder why their little darlings turn into arrogant little sods!
Bring ALL archaic rules back in school I say, something definately needs doing in my opinion.  | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 5:17:43 AM | I have just noticed your post Donna. I'm disgusted that you had to endure such disgusting behaviour from two school pupils in your class. I hope that you are now teaching with no serious issues from the kids.
You are right, back in our day we would not have dreamed at spitting at a teacher, yet alone actually doing that!
Is it me or are schools unable to expel troublesome pupils as easy these days?
I now teach home bound children and adults with disabilities and also sight and sound impaired I find it much more rewarding but thank you.
Sorry OP, but I read the article posted in full , and the headline paints a different picture.
I also read the article in full and wouldn't post a thread without doing so, the headline isn't the point while it might be sensationalising the article (and which papers headlines don't do that?) the article itself does state he was aggressive toward a teacher upon being asked to leave after refusing to stand. I also provided the link to the full article for a reason as I didn't want to copy and paste the whole thing but wanted people to have the full picture. In my mind being asked to leave for not standing and the resulting behaviour go hand in hand. I am not a Daily Mail fanatic by the way I read all the papers on line but prefer the Independant. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 8:20:10 AM |
What do you think about this?
A very good idea, a little respect for those that chose to teach them is deserved..
Do you believe the boy should be made to stand and if so why?
Tis part of a learning process, and all children need to be taught to follow rules, it is in no way detrimental to the well being of the child, so I fail to see the problem..
Or do you believe the Father is right and if so why?
No I believe the father should endorse the rules of the school and encourage his children to adhere to them..
He should also support those that are trying to educate his children and give them a future ..
Is the father being delibertly flamable and are his children picking up their disrespect from him?
Yes imho..
What is wrong with manners and respect within the classroom ..
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:17:46 AM |
they will come on here and say its all down to the parents to teach the children respect blah blah..but that aint no fecking comfort to the teachers who are being beaten up by children or us adults who are shit scared to walk the streets at night cos of the fear of being mugged or abused by gangs of young chavs...
You're gonna hate me then chops!
but from what I've read above he is being encouraged and backed by his father in this.
And from my own experiences as a parent when my kids were at school this is common, especially with the more unruly kids.
My ex and me used to argue about this, because she used to take his side when he'd been told off by a "useless" teacher, and I used to side with the "useless" teacher!
Not out of any outdated concept of "respect" but out of reality: I explained to my son that he must get used to people who may be w@nkers being in charge, life is like that, they can hurt/ affect you, but you can't them, and it's useless to resist purely for the sake of it or principles. It's wasted effort and will only make things worse.
In life your boss will probably be an idiot. Policemen may be idiots, etc., the traffic warden may be an idiot etc etc., but you have to learn when to keep your mouth shut.
Now I'm not exactly the greatest conformist, and I understand the respect argument. But children need values teaching to them outside as well as inside school, and this comes from the parents, or not in this case.(Sorry Chop!)
Parents need to stop "sticking up" for their kids against teachers. And go back to believing what the teacher says, and then give the kid some more sh1t when he gets in for misbehaviour. And stop threatening legal action against teachers. And believing their little darling would never do anything wrong.
Somebody needs to talk to this kid, because clearly it's not going to come from his dad.
And I'm not talking violence or revenge, if he's half intelligent he can be made to understand what he's done is wrong, and why.
IMO | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:36:59 AM | I dont agree that respect is earned. The head should be respected for 1,being an elder and 2 being the head of school.
The boy in question seems to me by the impression the article gives, a head strong, arrogant teen being brought up by a lazy bum also with respect for nobody.
I think its a great idea of Mr Harrisons and more schools should take note.
My daughter just told me at her Catholic primary that when the Head enters they have to stop what they are doing and listen. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:39:19 AM | bring back corporal punishment.. ever since it has been banned and spanking kids has been frowned upon..the children of today are more rebellious and ill-disciplined.
Especially kids on council estates.... | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:43:55 AM |
Somebody needs to talk to this kid, because clearly it's not going to come from his dad.
And I'm not talking violence or revenge, if he's half intelligent he can be made to understand what he's done is wrong, and why.
its all been tried and tested though joe hasnt it..? for the last 15 years or so we have tried talking to them instead of caning them and give them asbos instead of borstal..etc and it hasnt worked has it...the crime commited by young kids has gone right up..the amount of assaults and beatings on adults by the young has risen very sharply..and it is just getting worse and worse..yous people just wont learn or listen to the rest of us when we say that being nice to them aint working..we gotta be more tough on them like it was in my day...how many more teachers and other adults have got be beaten or killed before yous say enough is enough and realise this softly softly approach isnt working..and will never work.. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 9:49:04 AM |
ts all been tried and tested though joe hasnt it..? for the last 15 years or so we have tried talking to them instead of caning them and give them asbos instead of borstal..etc and it hasnt worked has it...the crime commited by young kids has gone right up..the amount of assaults and beatings on adults by the young has risen very sharply..and it is just getting worse and worse..yous people just wont learn or listen to the rest of us when we say that being nice to them aint working..we gotta be more tough on them like it was in my day...how many more teachers and other adults have got be beaten or killed before yous say enough is enough and realise this softly softly approach isnt working..and will never work..
Post of the day ...
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 10:01:04 AM | my dad used to come home most days with blisters on his hands due to have the cane smacked across him..it taught him a heck of a lot more aout discipline and respect then talking to a child ever did.
Look at the military, you act out of line and you get your arse handed to you.. it works...it just does..but no, the PC brigade has to butt their nose in =/ | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 10:13:57 AM | scareily, i agree with chopper, give em hell. my dad told me when he was younger he got taken home by the police once and his mum beat 7 layers of sh!t out of him, andthat was just for getting brought home by the police, she even thanked the police for giving him a slap up the side of the head when my dad tried to protest about it. to this day my dad is adamit he got what he deserved. thats the price he paid for not obaying the law.
we had to stand up for our headteacher and always call him sir in primary school, which had no issue with us, all the parents supported this.
Tell the lad if he cant play by the rules dont play the effing game, go to another school that will accept his crap, no teacher/s deserves to be treated like that.
the father also needs taught manners with aid of a drill sergeant.
i got cuffed up the side of the head for being cheeky once, and funny enough i didn't do it again.
actions have their conciquences, i was lucky enough my parents taught me young enough that doing bad came with a price, it usualy either smarted or stopped me from doing something i like. don't laugh, but soon enough parents won't be able to ground their children, they can phone up the NSPCC and claim their being held against their will, and officers will get called to investigate false imprisonment,
soft touch indeed. | |
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| School Children and Respect for Teachers.
Posted: 10/22/2009 10:19:24 AM |
we gotta be more tough on them like it was in my day...how many more teachers and other adults have got be beaten or killed before yous say enough is enough and realise this softly softly approach isnt working..and will never work..
I agree chop, you're misunderestimating me! The point I was trying to make, is that from the op, it sounds like the kid was "put up" to this by his dad: kick him in the nuts" comment?
And in my kids school, there seemed to exist this suspicion of the teachers, and my ex missus used to want to march down the school and give the teacher a "piece of her mind" and so do many over-protective parents, and that's where a lot of the problems with discipline come from, in the home where these kids are pandered to. Lots of parents have this "no why should I?" attitude, this "I know my rights" attitude "you've got no authority" and so do their kids.
The teachers need to be able to impose discipline.
The parents need to back them up.
I know not every kid can be "saved", some are just bad, or just won't change. Half my mates ended up in nick, and spent most of their lives going back in and out. It was just sheer luck that I didn't, and I think that most people are capable of growth and change.
people fcuk up, people make mistakes, I know that, I'm not a dreamer, most people can be 'reached' on some level though. I just don't think the majority are inherently bad, particularly when you're young and full of p155 and vinegar, and you think you know it all, and you won't listen to anybody, and they want to show off in front of their mates and all that shyte.
But most will grow out of that, and grow up fine. I'm not a softly softly approach kind of bloke, as the "chavs" in my area know, but it's only a fashion, most of them respect me because they know I won't tolerate disrespect. And they know it's no good telling me their rights, or what I can or can't do to them. But they are basically good kids, and they can be talked to, and they are actually people. They are just used to this shyte working on most people, they are allowed to get away with bad behaviour, and that's our fault, not theirs.
When did we start to become afraid of kids? | |
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