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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/22/2009 11:41:13 PM | After my first marriage didn't make it around the bend, I lay back, studied on it, dated a lot, waited, and ten years later, did it again. In some ways, I think I was haunted by the possibility that somehow I hadn't tried *hard enough* the first time, and vowed that if the second one failed, that it would NOT be my fault. . . .
Several years in, though mostly pretty good, thin spots were beginning to show. One day, talking with my sister (who is now married for more than 35 years, 11 kids, and showing every sign it's going to be till death does its thing), she asked, almost casually, why the h3ll I let him "get away" with so much? I hadn't thought of it that way, at all, and I didn't change my behavior. He kept getting away with everything he wished to, until what he wished created an necessary end to the marriage.
So now I wonder, if we somehow learn the wrong lessons from failure? And how do we change that? Is it even possible to change, or are we doomed to just doing more of the same?
Thanks for any input.
(p.s. ~~ I'm putting this in this forum, because I kinda hope that at *our age* we've gathered a bit wisdom the kids don't have access to, lol!) | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 12:18:08 AM |
somehow I hadn't tried *hard enough*
It shouldn't be work, you shouldn't have to try "hard". If you both care about each other, then your partner's input, feelings, etc should always be taken into account.
No one person makes a relationship fail, as it definitely takes two to make it work.
I promised myself that the next time I felt like it was too much work to be in a relationship, there wouldn't be a relationship.
I was very leary when my guy approached me about meeting. Was this one going to be work? Was I going to put more effort into the relationship than him? The answer was "no". We match in almost all of the important areas, so much so that we can finish each others sentences. We both put in equal effort to build the relationship, and we both talk in future terms about it. We're taking it slowly, making sure each other is at the same place in the relationship. There is no "I" when talking about the relationship - there is we, us, and ours. If it fails - it won't be for lack of effort from either of us. We are both a work in progress. Wisdom does sometimes come when one is older. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 2:14:11 AM | Well, it's said that the definition of insanity is making the same mistakes over and over, thinking somehow they're going to turn out differently. I'm hoping I'm not insance -- that some lessons-learned have taken root!
If experience teaches us anything, it should be "Think twice." It's one thing to be impetuous in your 20s. By the time you're in your 40s, you've further to fall and more to lose. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 2:22:06 AM | but you eventually realised this man wasn't for you, didn't you?
heavens,
if your partner isn't pulling his weight or satisfied with the relationship, why should you muddle along with it just for the sake of it?
why demean yourself to keep the peace or hang on to your man?
i wouldn't beat myself up about it...
he sounds like a real p*ick...
i say good riddance to him...
and best wishes for your future... | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 3:22:31 AM |
In some ways, I think I was haunted by the possibility that somehow I hadn't tried *hard enough* the first time
If you get too lonesome, it's easy to remember the good times and forget why you had to divorce. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:08:38 AM | I think every experience is, or can be, a learning experience. If you learn, but then go on to just let things happen that you probably know are gnawing away at your relationship, you are just being lazy. People get divorced because they decide to let themselves get divorced, in my opinion. There is always something you can do if you really want to pay whatever price is needed, and in many cases the price is just not worth it to you. That is the decision you take, and that is when you let things go on towards a divorce.
As a divorced person, I make no judgments of the decisions of others, but I do think its important to recognize one's own actions in the creation of the result. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:23:28 AM | The mistake always is in trying to relate using an intermediate abstraction. Instead of looking him in the eye, speaking freely, relating directly, there is an idea of How the Relationship is Going, and it's kissing cousin, What to Do to Make this Time Work.
Abstract concepts work great for large organizations. For any intimate personal relationship between two people, such a concept can only come between the people and muck things up.
If being direct, sincere, is hard, then get better at it. Each time you find yourself off by yourself having your private thoughts about the Relationship, you are hiding from your partner in an abstract fantasy that can only be useful if you have foregone the direct route of looking them in the eye and speaking to them heart to heart. If so, kiss it good-bye. The essential quality of intimacy is missing. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:23:32 AM | I realize that I am powerless over people. I put the focus on myself and change my attitude and behavior whenever I start focusing on them. My thoughts feelings and attitude can be changed with the flick of my mind.....and I don't have to be right. I believe everyone is entitled to their own opinion whether I feel its right or wrong I don't have to say so.......Nor do I have to be right.
The past is the past I live for today and not for tomorrow.
The definition of insanity is to keep repeating it.
I try not to justify my bad behavior.....whenever I am wrong I will admit it and apologize for it.....regardless of who, I have to I do it for me not them.
My thoughts and feelings are my thoughts and feelings....they are neither right nor wrong just feelings. They aren't facts.........I use facts, not the fiction running in my head.......................
My one little one that has saved me numberous times is Principals over personalities.
Which means the principal of the matter not who. I focus on the what not the who. This saves me from getting crazy and I can look at it evenly and objectively.
Whenever I started dating after the death of my Husband I thought I had it all figured out.....I was destined to repeat the same mistakes....for me pain is a motivator. It motivated me to change my behavior and attitudes and work on my character and personality defects....I will never get it done.....but I don't beat myself up for the past and stay in the present. Today I am doing much better. I have learned to carry duck tape and stick it on my mouth a lot. I have a big mouth. Smiles | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 5:51:50 AM | Op, I can understand what you mean. With my second husband I realized he just wanted someone to accept who he was unconditionally. He was bi-polar and at times would do things that even he didnt understand why. So I became a "just accept it" type of person. I really have no regrets with him, he was a wonderful man but he made choices that when he wasnt manic that there were no excuse for and that I couldnt accept. But I learned alot from him about what a man really wants from someone.
I used to call it loving like a dog...a dog will always be happy to see his owner no matter what time they get home....you can forget about a dog and whenever you remember the dog is still glad to see you. He waits patiently at your feet for you to let him out.
I am not implying that a man should treat a woman like a dog...not at all.
But when someone does something one of the first reactions is to fuss about it if it bothered you. If you feel ignored you try and demand more time etc. All that is to try and change a person to be who you want them to be vs allowing them to be who they are to you.
Much better to discover what about yourself you need to change to be with them than trying to make them change into what you want. If they can't give you what you want and need then they arent the right match for you. If you can't communicate your needs without fighting then they arent the right match for you either. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:00:06 AM |
(p.s. ~~ I'm putting this in this forum, because I kinda hope that at *our age* we've gathered a bit wisdom the kids don't have access to, lol!) Well yeah, and mostly they don't have 2 or 3 tries marriage tries under their belt either.
woody, what I seem to have 'learned' from male/me serious relationships is that I am doing very well alone now.
Sad as that may sound to many.. to me it is proving to be peaceful.
Seems that's the 'season' I am in right now.
IF I begin to venture into another season.. I would certainly hope I'm not silly enough to stay there if it is overly analytical.
Yuck.
No thanks. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:19:13 AM | It takes two people to make a relationship work, but one, two, or three to make it fail.
I too reflected on my first relationship, and studied a variety of relationship books, scientific research, general psychology, and successfully married friends to figure out as much as I could. It certainly has helped, but of course there are the unknowns and the issues or problems that occur with someone new which you have not experienced before and for which you have no tools to handle.
Hopefully you learned more lessons and can develop some new tools for the next time, but while this second relationship did not work out, I wouldn't think in terms of failure - just as a stepping stone.
I'm hoping that all my reflection and research will help in my current relationship. Approaching 10 years, it's going strong and we both feel this is for the rest of our lives. Perhaps an element of luck is involved in finding someone truly compatible, but careful searching and screening and taking time to be sure of this compatibility before totally commiting is also necessary. I also think that when you have true compatibility, the relationship is mostly easy and requires only attention, and not much work. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:49:22 AM | ... So now I wonder, if we somehow learn the wrong lessons from failure? And how do we change that? Is it even possible to change, or are we doomed to just doing more of the same?
There are lessons to be learned in most failures. There is so much to learn from certain types of failure that we might prefer to call them learning opportunities. How do we learn to walk unless we also fall?
We don't want to fail or "fall" in marriage, but many of us do. And so we stand up, learn what we can, and often try again. It becomes a problem when we focus on one of the lessons, while ignoring or downplaying everything else of importance.
In your case, your first marriage taught you that "somehow (you) hadn't tried *hard enough* the first time, and vowed that if the second one failed, that it would NOT be (your) fault." That's a good lesson to learn, but you took it too far. You forgot that husband #2 needs to do his part. In a healthy marriage, there is a line that must not be crossed. Actually, there are several lines ... lines of respect, fidelity, responsibility, ethics, and others ... over which neither partner may step without consequence.
It's the nature of wisdom to learn from life and apply the lessons (plural) to new situations. "Wisdom" makes a great partner in marriage. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 6:56:12 AM | As someone who has been married 5 times I feel I learned right AND wrong lessons. When I was younger and wasn't prepared and willing to accept responsibility for the consequences of my own actions I put the failure of the marriages on the exes. Yes, they played their parts in the demise of the relationships but I was not (still am not) perfect and innocent of any mistakes or wrong doing. So essentially I was living a lie, projecting that skewed take on my personal reality, and making decisions/operating under those falsehoods. However, while I wasn't working on myself I WAS developing quite the list of character traits I did not want in a man. I know we talk here about how that can be a negative thing and I agree; however, if there are certain character traits one absolutely cannot live with it IS something one MUST be aware of and avoid.
I did not begin to truly recognize things I needed to work on until I was about 30. Even then I still had a long way to go. I do believe people can change but, as is often said, they must WANT to change. I suspect, just like with substance abusers, that most don't arrive at wanting to change until they've 'hit bottom' in some way, shape or form. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:08:17 AM | A couple of thoughts on this:
First, I think we sometimes focus on what we DON'T want and think if we avoid that we'll have what we DO want...that may not be true.
Second, sometimes people marry in "lust" rather than in "love". Once the smoke clears a bit, they recognize that all they had in common is great sex.
Third, In the initial stages of a relationship, usually both parties are on their best behavior, it takes some time and comfort before the real person emerges. Both 2 and 3 would certainly argue for longer courtship. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:38:14 AM | I don't want to be in a relationship that is 'work'. If it doesn't flow and have a sense of peace, warmth and joy about it naturally, I would rather lay on my couch with my cat.  | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 7:42:30 AM | Blueseyes: You certainly are well aquainted with the 12 steps and it does shine
through, solid thinking to get folks through.
Wooby: I can only speak for me of course, so here's a piece of what I believe about all
this--I believe we each have "core issues" that we either come into this world with and/or are built through our "formative years" in childhood. I believe that folks are
often trying and trying to heal the wounds from the past/trying to fill the gaps/trying to feel whole/connected/loved---whatever the gap is, the labels for it/them are numerous. For me, I have done lots of work to understand what my OWN core issues are...how I carry them, embracing them as part of who I am, understanding more fully
why I tend to make "incomplete" choices in partners who are not on this earth to fill my gaps. My gaps are mine. Some stuff can't be healed....it just IS. I have finally gotten pretty dern good at paying attention to how I respond to life/people, and weeding out my own tendency to give attributes where there just ain't any--or where
the attributes just aren't truly the ones I'm wanting to CELEBRATE what remains of my life.
Life teaches, Woob, in the most beautiful and precise ways. When I'm wanting to
understand it all better....I allow my heart to open and just "ask" to see the path more
clearly. Always, always...the answers come. You seem to be a very gentle and kind
spirit...and I suspect you know this. There is a HUGE mountain of strength in
gentleness and kindness....maybe its the STRENGTH of that you simply need to embrace. But
 ---it could just be my work-tired mind babbling my thoughts again.
Many Blessing, Wooby | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:33:33 AM | After a While
(You Learn)
© Veronica A. Shoffstall 1971
After a while you learn the subtle difference between
holding a hand and chaining a soul.
And you learn that love doesn’t mean leaning,
and company doesn’t always mean security.
And you begin to learn that kisses are not contracts,
and present's aren’t promises.
And you begin to accept your defeats
with your head up and your eyes ahead...
With the grace of a woman,
not the grief of a child.
And you learn
To build all your roads on today,
Because tomorrow's ground is too uncertain for plans,
and futures have a way of falling down in mid-flight.
After a while you learn that even sunshine burns
if you get too much…
So, you plant your own garden,
and decorate your own soul...
Instead of waiting for someone to bring you flowers.
And you learn that you really can endure…
you really are strong,
you really do have worth.
And you learn, and you learn…
with every goodbye,
You Learn…
I found this said it best..
thecatsmeoww | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 8:54:30 AM | I think I was haunted by the possibility that somehow I hadn't tried *hard enough* the first time, and vowed that if the second one failed, that it would NOT be my fault.
My situation was somewhat different, I had my mother's multiple marriages as a prime example of what not to do. I thought, anyway. The first time I got married, I was so naive in so many ways it makes me cringe now just to think about it. Still, I took that 'for better, for worse' thing seriously. What I learned is that one person can't make a relationship, it takes two. But it left me so gun-shy I didn't get married again for another 20 years.
The second one worked just fine. What I learned from that one is that both partners have to be willing to communicate, compromise, and give 110%. It's not a 50/50 thing. It's an all or nothing on both sides. It's not always easy, but it worked for us. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:08:31 AM |
I think every experience is, or can be, a learning experience. If you learn, but then go on to just let things happen that you probably know are gnawing away at your relationship, you are just being lazy. People get divorced because they decide to let themselves get divorced, in my opinion. There is always something you can do if you really want to pay whatever price is needed, and in many cases the price is just not worth it to you. That is the decision you take, and that is when you let things go on towards a divorce.
As a divorced person, I make no judgments of the decisions of others, but I do think its important to recognize one's own actions in the creation of the result. OUCHIE!!!! LOL! I think some of that mud just got all over ME!
Ok, well, I have to 'fess up, that definitely fits me; and it was not until that had been brought to my attention several times, from several different sources that I had to examine what I was doing. In my mind, I was trying to avoid, and thinking that I wasn't being a "nag", or "demanding", or whiny, etc. In essence: I was only allowing behavior that I hated and strongly resented, but I wasn't saying anything about those things. They (my exes) perceived that since I wasn't nagging or complaining....that I had no problem with their behavior.....and were in fact really SHOCKED when I left them.
So, as hard as it is to accept the fact, yes, I have typically been "lazy" in my relationships. Going a step further however, I had to analyze WHY I was "lazy"; and it seems to come from my inherent nature to "avoid" conflict. LOL! I know...it seems really strange....to those who know me; because in day to day life I don't shy away from either conflict or controversy; but just let that "love" thing enter the equation....and I become like one of those little bugs that when you touch em, they roll up into a ball! LOL!
If I ever enter into another relationship, I believe that it would have to be with someone who would be "in my face" and not let me get away with avoiding my own feelings. Since I'm neither shy, nor overly sensitive....I have to conclude that my "conflict avoidance" is nothing more than "laziness". | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 9:11:20 AM | I can so relate, Wooby. I found that with each progressive marriage, I'd tolerate more and more intolerable behavior so I wouldn't again 'fail' at marriage. This stopped when I finally realized I didn't deserve to be treated in unacceptable ways, whether that meant divorce or not.
I wasn't a failure at marriage. I was a failure at choosing partners. I was a very good wife who was stupid enough to marry four men who were incapable of having a healthy, loving relationship of any lengthy duration. Those poor choices were due to a dysfunctional childhood where I was exposed to a bad example of what marriage should be.
Once I finally was able, through therapy, to work through the reasons for my bad choices, I've broken the pattern that lasted so many years. Now I'm in a place where I have no doubts about my ability to chose a man who will be a loving, caring, and understanding partner and I will be the same with him. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:04:07 AM |
what I seem to have 'learned' from male/me serious relationships is that I am doing very well alone now.
Sad as that may sound to many.. to me it is proving to be peaceful.
Seems that's the 'season' I am in right now.
IF I begin to venture into another season.. I would certainly hope I'm not silly enough to stay there if it is overly analytical.
Yuck.
No thanks.
Me, too.
Hm...when is it work, and when is it being over analytical? Where is the cross over? Work just figuring that out, eh? lol Just asking generally.
Anyway...
For those that feel if it has to be work (and, yes, hard work at times) then they want no part of an LTR; implying that it must be 'easy going' for them to sustain a LTR or = a deal breaker/divorce, but what they seek is an LTR? ...
Work = compromise, sacrifice, difficult uncomfortable situation and/or topic(s) to discuss, conflict and resolution = intimate LTR. IMO, realistically, anyway.
I guess I'm a bit surprised to hear the 'easy or forget it' sentiment from many of the older crowd specifically because as we are older it would (should) stand to reason that we would (should) be wiser.
Wisdom = having learned that LTR ARE work, and sometimes hard work and acknowledge that even preventative maintenance - staying tuned into, not just in sync - which is work, albeit proactive, therefore positive imo, but still - a continuous effort/work - is required throughout the relationship to, at least, work at heading off taking the other for granted for starters. Another is to live side-by-side well blended, while maintaining individualism, which at times can run into uncomfortable murkiness that, yes, needs to be worked through.
EaSy LTR? Should know better then that by now unless at this time of 'older' one continues believing their past delusions of LTR=Easy (ie. it became difficult = relationship over - and, I'm not addressing extreme damage, so please)... or, has chosen the delusion to live under in place of confronting, and accepting, that to succeed it's going to be work, and embrace what WORK means: Conscience EFFORT. Which begins day 1.
One thing I know for sure: The LAST thing I need in my life is yet another delusional and/or emotionally lazy male, thank you. One thing I can say, for my older self, is that I can spot an Easy Relationship Only male pretty dang early in the game, if not from a mile off, right off the bat... Thank GOD.. and, yeah... it was WORK gettin' there, I tell ya.
As far as this topic: I'm liken' older, and wiser. As a matter of fact?... I'm lovin' it  ! | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:08:35 AM |
People get divorced because they decide to let themselves get divorced, in my opinion. There is always something you can do if you really want to pay whatever price is needed, and in many cases the price is just not worth it to you. That is the decision you take, and that is when you let things go on towards a divorce.
As a divorced person, I make no judgments of the decisions of others, but I do think its important to recognize one's own actions in the creation of the result.
Sorry, you just did make a judgment. Pay whatever price is needed? Darn right it was too high! No way was I going to move in with him and the various women he kept moving in with - not that either he or they would have put up with me doing so, anyway. What happened to you , happened to you. You are basing your opinions on your experience only, not that of others.
But yes, I did finally divorce him. I paid for it twice, in fact, because the first time he didn't bother to show up in court to sign the papers in the state where he lived, so I had to wait until I became a legal resident of the state where I'd moved and do it all over again. | |
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:21:35 AM | woobytoodsday
So now I wonder, if we somehow learn the wrong lessons from failure? And how do we change that? Is it even possible to change, or are we doomed to just doing more of the same?
---------
We learn the right lesson every time. But we are always half-learned in each subsequent relationship, because the other person has made different mistakes, has learned different lessons.
Trying to apply the knowledge you accumulated from past failures to a new relationships, adds an extra burden by expecting your partner to react in a certain manner, because the previous one did... (A.K.A. baggage.)
No, we are not doomed to making the same mistakes. We will make new ones. We will be too soft or too hard at the wrong times. We will hurt the people we love, and we will be hurt by them. We will disagree on trivial matters and inflict each other pain, and say things we don’t mean. We will act impulsively and take short vacations from patience and understanding….
The secret might lay, in not hiding in the broom closet and shutting your partner out. Either voice your troubles loud and clear, or huddle in the closet together until it blows over.
It takes kindness and love and the conscious will to forgive and make up if we are to avoid the next failure…
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| Second (or Third or. . . ) Time Around
Posted: 10/23/2009 10:45:48 AM | SparklingRose, I too was surprised by the number of folks who seem to not believe a good relationship requires work. Without it I believe people become complacent. As we settle into a relationship and it becomes more and more comfortable we may find ourselves noticing we were alone with our partner for a substantial amount of time and didn't exchange more than a few words. Then that lil' niggling voice comes along to cast doubt or make us wonder is something has changed or is wrong. Then and there we should speak up or make a promise to ourselves that we're gonna do something to insure our relationship and then follow thru. That's work. It doesn't require a tremendous amount of effort but it does require being aware and giving a d***. Some may say "That's just being considerate." Well.. I've called quite a few men "inconsiderate bast***s" in my day so it's not like consideration is a natural human function. It requires awareness and effort.
But different strokes for different folks, I guess.
As for the other poster's comment of people "letting" themselves get divorced (and I guess that would be instead of 'working' at it), even in marriage we cannot control another person's behavior. We can ASK them to modify it. We can TRY to modify it ourselves thru manipulation. But some behaviors cannot and should not be tolerated, expecially those which endanger people. | |
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