| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 6:23:54 PM | I watched BookTv yesterday. The author of "Why Are Jews Liberals?",
Norman Podhoretz, said something that made me think a little bit. In the end I couldn't disagree with him. He stated something to the affect that liberals are driven to solve perceived inequalities and injustices of the past with little regard to what impact their solutions have on the future, where as conservatives are so focused on what impact changes will have on the future they have a difficulties making any changes in the present.
I never thought of either conservatives or liberals in those terms, but after thinking about it for awhile, it made a lot of sense to me. What do you think of his synopsis of either conservative or liberals? | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 6:37:01 PM | I think this is either politics or religion, and in any case, doesn't really belong in science/philosophy.
Hey, you asked. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 6:48:28 PM | | I thought both conservative & liberal thinking is a philosophy, never really thought of it as a religion and although many in politics say they are either conservative or liberal, I always thought they were speaking more of their philosophy of how they approach an issue. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 7:13:21 PM | "He stated something to the affect that liberals are driven to solve perceived inequalities and injustices of the past with little regard to what impact their solutions have on the future"
So the implication here is that Jews... who have a disproportionate share of influence in the banking and finance industries compared to their numbers in the general population... are liberal because they're selfishly trying to give themselves more in order to make up for the prejudice they've experienced in the past...
It couldn't be something as simple as they've endured gross prejudice and so they don't wish to impose or support any entity that emposes prejudice against a group on the basis of race, religion or creed? | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 7:31:16 PM |
So the implication here is that Jews... who have a disproportionate share of influence in the banking and finance industries compared to their numbers in the general population... are liberal because they're selfishly trying to give themselves more in order to make up for the prejudice they've experienced in the past...
That is not what Jewish author said AT ALL, in fact how you arrived at your conclusion of what I wrote as the OP is fascinating to me. I never addressed the topic of his book in my post, only his thoughts on the philosophy(or thinking process) of liberals vs conservatives. Since they weren't my thoughts, I thought I should reference where they came from.
BTW, I don't view this topic as religious or political(the forum moderator must think like you do) but more as a philosophical question as to how liberals versus conservative arrive at their solutions to a problem. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 8:12:29 PM | I've seen a few things happening in the future that are referenced right here just in the last 6 months.
The first was when I saw the auto bail out as a preclude to the government "owning" the auto companies to a certain degree.
That is exactly what happened as we see them dictating their incomes now but I got ridiculed and assured by one or two liberals saying I didn't know what I was talking about.
Then came a thread about taxing alcohol and I said that will be the preclude to taxing everything from soda to candy, red meat etc.
That time I was not only ridiculed but quoted as using logical fallacy, straw man, hasty generalizations blaaaah, blaaaaah, blaaaaaaaah,
Well lo and behold obama is ready to create the sin tax so I think there may be something to this.
I'll be staying aware of the comparisons in the future, it's a good debate tool.
Thanks for posting it.
And I think I'll just continue trusting my island instincts. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 8:38:46 PM | cowboy,
you bring up an excelent point. i always thought it was the difference between a selfish gene or a giving gene that made us predisposed to be either conservative or liberal but this makes total sense. i think i will read the book. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 9:33:38 PM |
i always thought it was the difference between a selfish gene or a giving gene that made us predisposed to be either conservative or liberal I hadn't thought about it that way, but now that you mention it, that really does apply to this "Health Care" Situation.
With over 122 people dieing daily just because they don't have health insurance, we have the conservatives who just don't want the health care reform. Ya, that logic makes perfect sense to me. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 9:59:28 PM | I'm not sure that this is applicable to the American political scene today. Both parties have moved so far right in the last 30 years, that this just isn't a very good explanation today.
The health reform advocates are the ones looking to the future and recognizing that the US can't stay competitive if increasingly burdonsome costs are carried by US businesses. The right wing in America is just reflexively opposed - there isn't any real concern for the future. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 10:04:15 PM | I've known liberals of all religious persuasion and conservatives of all religious persuasions. Religion and race seem to have nothing to do with it. It's utterly unpredictable. My best friend is the most die hard conservative atheist Jew you could ever hope to meet. Another friend is a borderline communist from a staunch Mormon family. Try to make sense of that. I don't even try. I'm just friends with everybody. :D
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/25/2009 10:16:47 PM |
I've known liberals of all religious persuasion and conservatives of all religious persuasions. Religion and race seem to have nothing to do with it. It's utterly unpredictable. My best friend is the most die hard conservative atheist Jew you could ever hope to meet. Another friend is a borderline communist from a staunch Mormon family. Try to make sense of that. I don't even try. I'm just friends with everybody. :D
Don't think I have ever seen anyone post something in these forums I could agree with more than that.
I think the strange need some feel to categorize and over analyze things to the most minute, obsessive, compulsive, anal, detail, and try to use this as a generalization to lump a bunch of individuals into some kind of rule is beyond foolish.
People are quite a bit more like snowflakes. I also have friends of all stripes, and political persuasions. One thing I have noticed from observation is people seldom fit completely into these silly categories on every issue. In fact so often do they spill out of the category intended to confine them into some silly system of thought that the labels become useless. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 2:50:09 AM | It seems to me that as a person learns from the effects of their own actions and the effects of other peoples actions, the more conservative they become. And those who don't learn tend to bear out the definition of insanity.
That's why people generally become more conservative in their actions as they gain more maturity.
I'm seeing smacks of political affiliations in this thread and I don't think the op was about politics. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems the op was referring to the way a person approaches life and not his politics in particular. Of course a person's philosophy will dictate his choices in politics.
Which leads to a side note, what seems to be happening lately is that politics is trying to dictate to person's philosophy. This is a burden on freedom and liberty and I hope it stops soon. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 4:03:20 AM |
I've known liberals of all religious persuasion and conservatives of all religious persuasions. Religion and race seem to have nothing to do with it.
Again as I said earlier I started this topic not to address the topic of the book, but I did listen to the author's presentation. Last election 78% of Jewish people voted for Obama. Of the demographic groups tracked, only African-American's voted for him in a higher percentage(95%). | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 8:13:14 AM |
I'm not sure that this is applicable to the American political scene today. Both parties have moved so far right in the last 30 years, that this just isn't a very good explanation today.
I've discussed this with you before, and I really hate to appear like I'm doggin' you, but....
From 1970 to 1995 social welfare expenditures in the US have increased from $2,454 (per capita) to $5,622.... that's in adjusted for inflation 1995 dollars. These numbers were supplied by the US census bureau and you can have a better look at all of the figures here:
http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/598_social_welfare_expenditures_under_public_programs.html
Unless I'm reading these tables wrong (which is possible), it appears that there has been a significant increase in spending for all social programs except veterans assistance (which itself could be explained by the decreased number of WWII veterans). I didn't find any numbers more recent than 1995.... perhaps some help?
While we all hear about how Christian extremists have been given too much influence in today's political world, I find it laughable to think that a movement such as gay rights would have been given more consideration thirty years ago than today (not that I really care one way or the other.... but it is a misrepresentation of how attitudes have changed). I find that in modern times it has become very popular for people with influence (celebrities) to ridicule religous people.... Christians in particular.
The right wing in America is just reflexively opposed
I have to agree that this does happen.... but it happens on both sides of the healthcare debate.... I could give several examples how the left has done the same thing in Canada. And while there are people who will always oppose the other side, that doesn't negate the fact that there are also people with well thought out concerns who may also oppose.
On-topic.... I do agree with the premise suggested in the opening post.
There seems to be two widely held preconceptions about conservatives.... that we are uncompassionate (the selfish gene?!? Really?), or that we are stupid.... blindly following the rhetoric spouted by our leaders.
It isn't that I blindly trust corporations to always do what's in the best interest of society.... it's that I believe that government is run by the same people, and the beuaracracy (and inefficiency) is multiplied. Regulations that are imposed on businesses, supposedly implemented to close the gap between rich and poor, more often increase the difficulty of the small businessman to compete.... therefore increasing the proliferation of big corporations.
My beliefs are mine with the intent of improving society for future generations. I suppose it is possible I may be wrong, but that doesn't mean I'm stupid. I'm not selfish either.... | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 8:41:57 AM |
While we all hear about how Christian extremists have been given too much influence in today's political world, I find it laughable to think that a movement such as gay rights would have been given more consideration thirty years ago than today
Christian extremists worked very hard to be "given" that influence, btw. Thirty years ago, gay rights were on the fringe; that is no longer true today. In other words, it was not extremist to be anti-gay rights 30 years ago; it was the mainstream of society.
It isn't that I blindly trust corporations to always do what's in the best interest of society.... it's that I believe that government is run by the same people, and the beuaracracy (and inefficiency) is multiplied. Regulations that are imposed on businesses, supposedly implemented to close the gap between rich and poor, more often increase the difficulty of the small businessman to compete.... therefore increasing the proliferation of big corporations.
See the connection you made in your own argument? Big corporations have way more influence in government than even the Christian extremists or anyone else. It was not meant to be that way. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 8:55:06 AM | | Ya know, 30 years ago isn't as far back as it used to be, lol. That's just 1979, so I have to adjust my earlier statement. I was addressing the mainstream from 50 years ago. Thirty years ago is 1979, which was approximately the genesis of the "Moral Majority"-- the beginning of the current Christian conservative movement in US politics. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 10:37:54 AM |
Thirty years ago, gay rights were on the fringe; that is no longer true today. In other words, it was not extremist to be anti-gay rights 30 years ago; it was the mainstream of society.
Whether it be 30 yrs or 50 yrs, it is now considered that the people who are religous should be considered extremists. There has been a shift in society's perceptions.... and not to the right.
As I said, this particular point is of little interest to me, but I think the left has ignored the fact that there are people who are atheists (and agnostics) that are extremely homophopic.... there are also homophobes who are much more likely to agree with liberal spending practices than conservative. Stating that the main source of opposition to gay marriage would be Christian extremists from the right is misleading.
It isn't that I blindly trust corporations to always do what's in the best interest of society.... it's that I believe that government is run by the same people, and the beuaracracy (and inefficiency) is multiplied. Regulations that are imposed on businesses, supposedly implemented to close the gap between rich and poor, more often increase the difficulty of the small businessman to compete.... therefore increasing the proliferation of big corporations. See the connection you made in your own argument? Big corporations have way more influence in government than even the Christian extremists or anyone else. It was not meant to be that way.
Oh, I see the connection. One thing I should have said differently.... I meant to say the same type of people running government (although sometimes it is, I realize, the same people who run the corperations).
My point was that very often government intervention (whether well intentioned or not), is a contributing factor in hurting small businesses. So.... what we are often told from the left will decrease the gap between rich and poor ends up having the total opposite effect. I'm not saying that the liberal politicians who had asked for these regulations had intended for that outcome, but oftentimes I see it happening. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 11:04:41 AM |
Whether it be 30 yrs or 50 yrs,
The difference is not trivial. 50 years ago was before the social revolution of the 60's; it was before the invention of the pill; it was before Roe v Wade. 30 years ago was not. The extremist influence of 50 years ago was McCarthyism.
it is now considered that the people who are religous should be considered extremists.
Distortion. The people who seek to inject religious dogma and doctrine into the political sphere are considered extremists-- or, rather, reactionaries. Ironically, they tend to be the same people who fear the installation of sharia law the most.
There has been a shift in society's perceptions.... and not to the right.
I pretty much agree as it pertains to social issues. But that is the sort of shift that stirs and emboldens reactionaries (see above).
Stating that the main source of opposition to gay marriage would be Christian extremists from the right is misleading.
Possibly, but not just because you say so.
My point was that very often government intervention (whether well intentioned or not), is a contributing factor in hurting small businesses. So.... what we are often told from the left will decrease the gap between rich and poor ends up having the total opposite effect. I'm not saying that the liberal politicians who had asked for these regulations had intended for that outcome, but oftentimes I see it happening.
Yup. But you leave out that this also applies to the right-- they just differ on the more/less regulation part. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 1:19:30 PM | Definitely an interesting way of looking at it. It does make some sense. Although ultimately, I do think with both sides it really has less to do with fixing anything and more to do with promising to fix things in order to keep your specific party in power.
i always thought it was the difference between a selfish gene or a giving gene that made us predisposed to be either conservative or liberal but this makes total sense.
Which one leads to which? | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 1:38:03 PM |
My point was that very often government intervention (whether well intentioned or not), is a contributing factor in hurting small businesses. So.... what we are often told from the left will decrease the gap between rich and poor ends up having the total opposite effect. I'm not saying that the liberal politicians who had asked for these regulations had intended for that outcome, but oftentimes I see it happening.
What part did deregulation play in the present current economic condition of our country? | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 2:21:14 PM |
What part did deregulation play in the present current economic condition of our country?
That would be: What caused the worst economic crash since the great depression? | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 7:17:19 PM | Liberals see the Constitution as an archaic document that has little relevance in the world today. After all it was written by some old white guys whose views don't represent the people of color, minorities. Liberals feel they know better than the founders what is best for the country.
They view it as an ever changeable document to suit the "needs" of our time without following the requirement to pass amendments.
Conservatives view the Constitution as the highest law in the land, that is timeless in it's wisdom. It was, is and will be relevant for all generations of Americans. They view the founding fathers as perhaps the most fortuitous gathering of wise men in the history of the world.
They view it as a sacred document whose ideas and ideals need to be preserved and only changed carefully using due diligence utilizing the constitutionally prescribed amendment process. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 7:55:07 PM |
Liberals see the Constitution as an archaic document that has little relevance in the world today. After all it was written by some old white guys whose views don't represent the people of color, minorities. Liberals feel they know better than the founders what is best for the country.
They view it as an ever changeable document to suit the "needs" of our time without following the requirement to pass amendments.
Conservatives view the Constitution as the highest law in the land, that is timeless in it's wisdom. It was, is and will be relevant for all generations of Americans. They view the founding fathers as perhaps the most fortuitous gathering of wise men in the history of the world.
They view it as a sacred document whose ideas and ideals need to be preserved and only changed carefully using due diligence utilizing the constitutionally prescribed amendment process.
Where in this post do you take into account that while conservatives were defending Bush when he was ignoring the constitution, the liberals were protesting his actions? | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 8:04:25 PM |
Where in this post do you take into account that while conservatives were defending Bush when he was ignoring the constitution, the liberals were protesting his actions?
Often Bush was in agreement with liberals like on immigration.
Conservatives did not defend Bush, some Republicans did. However, do not confuse conservatives with Republicans. There are almost no conservatives in the Republican party. | |
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| Conservative Vs Liberals
Posted: 10/26/2009 8:19:17 PM |
Distortion. The people who seek to inject religious dogma and doctrine into the political sphere are considered extremists-- or, rather, reactionaries.
Labelling a group of people as "reactionaries" for wanting to maintain the staus quo doesn't feel accurate to me.
What part did deregulation play in the present current economic condition of our country?
I'm by no means an expert on what has happened in your country. I can, however, give you a layman's point of view on what government policies have done to my little community in northern Alberta.
For 15 years my area has enjoyed an extremely strong economy.... mostly due to the conservative nature of our provincial government (and, of course, our reserves of oil and natural gas). With people moving here from out of province, my city doubled in population (25,000 to 50,000) in less than ten years.
Our federal government sponsors a program for first time home-owners that has been around for as long as I remember. At some time during the last ten years the restrictions on these government guaranteed loans have been severely lowered (presumably with the intention of making it easier for people with lower incomes to buy). Downpayments were sometimes non-existant (the government has raised it again, but it occurs to me like it's shutting the barn after the horses have fled), and now second, third or even fifth time homeowners are given the same deal.
In less than two years the appraised value of my home went from 100k to 240k. I know 25 yr old kids who are making payments for the next 40 yrs on 400k mortgages.
When the bank is lending it's own money, much stricter criteria has to be met. With government gauranteed (and structured) loans everybody gets a chance to go in debt big time.
A couple of years ago our Premier, in all his wisdom, caved to liberal demands and raised the royalties on oil. It seems that some of the whiz kids had realized that Alberta has low royalties in comparison to the rest of the world. What these people had failed to realize is that due to higher labour costs, more stringent enviromental and safety standards, and harsh climate and terain, it is very expensive to drill a well in Canada. The oil companies responded, for the most part, by pulling their dollars out and choosing to do business elsewhere.
Now the big crunch hasn't come yet (just a little crunch so far), and hopefully with any luck the guys running things in our capital will get their heads straight and possibly fix this situation. But.... if the crunch does come....
I shudder to think of what my home that I paid 100k for will be worth if 10,000 easterners decide to leave my town like rats fleeing from a sinking ship. Of course the people who lose their homes are going to be in worse shape (of course if things get real bad they can go on federal assistance). The taxpayers of my country could be on the hook for a billion dollars (easily) just for the defaulted loans in my little community. Even the enviroment will take a hit. Gasoline is still going to be burned.... the oil companies will just be drilling for it and producing it in countries with less strict enviromental policies.
But... on the bright side..... the oil companies will still be making money.... just not in Alberta. The banks will be doing okay too... it was government guaranteed money.
Now.... if the above scenario does indeed play out.... who should I be most dissapointed with? The oil companies? The banks? Or... just maybe... my government? | |
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