| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/28/2009 8:53:11 PM | After reading a news report in the paper, the title for this thread jumped out at me, reminded me of Art Linkletter's long running show & books "Kids Say the Darndest Things".
Here's what the defence lawyer for the 12 year old boy said:
The boy's lawyer said he's not out of control, he just repeatedly finds himself in the middle of sticky situations.
"I know it doesn't look good," Serena Puranen said. "I've never seen him enraged, I've never seen him upset. He's a 12-year-old who is generally quite scared."
( I guess "finds himself in the middle of sticky situations" is legalese for " keeps breaking the law & getting caught".
Here's the news story :
He's 12 years old and in the past nine months has been charged with everything from vandalism to assault and breaching court orders. The courts have been catching and releasing him for months and the Crown says he is out of control and should not be released on bail. What to do?
If you're Judge Marvin Garfinkle, you hit him where it hurts. At a hearing last week, Garfinkle granted the boy bail, but only after he agreed to provide the court his most valued possession as security -- his Nintendo Wii.
The boy's release conditions include keeping the peace, appearing for court dates, living with his grandmother and participating in a bail management program. If he breaches any of the conditions, it's bye-bye Wii.
"He is pledging as a security, akin to a cash deposit, his Nintendo Wii," Garfinkle said. "And if he doesn't comply, he loses it."
The boy's first run-in with the law was last February when he allegedly used a rock-filled sock to smash the door windows of his elementary school. Days later, he chased a classmate and punched him several times in the face.
Police released him on an undertaking but it wasn't long before he was in trouble again, this time for breaching a court order he not attend his school. He is accused of breaching that order at least three times.
"It's almost as if he's taunting the school," said Crown attorney Susan Baragar.
In August, he allegedly hit another boy over the head with a pool cue. His latest arrest was Oct. 16 when he allegedly attacked a male student and female teacher at his new school following a game of dodge ball.
"While the youth is 12 years old, it is our submission he is clearly out of control and will not obey any rules your honour may lay down for him," Baragar told Garfinkle.
The boy's lawyer said he's not out of control, he just repeatedly finds himself in the middle of sticky situations.
"I know it doesn't look good," Serena Puranen said. "I've never seen him enraged, I've never seen him upset. He's a 12-year-old who is generally quite scared."
Breaching court orders numerous times, breaking windows, assault, assault with a pool cue, assault again... these are "sticky situations" ???
Do defence lawyers have to take an IQ test & score low before they can become lawyers? And I guess if the defence lawyer doesn't personally see his client enraged ( or breaking the law) then it doesn't count ?????
So now in the near future guess the young criminal ( oops I mean young offender) will be charged with theft for stealing a Wii.
Feel free to post any other examples of defence lawyers making ludicrous statements. | |
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WeR1
| Joined: 4/9/2007 Msg: 2 | |
| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/29/2009 5:37:02 AM | It's their job.
Has it been reported anywhere whether or not, aside from residing with his grandmother and losing his wii, there were other conditions ordered?
This is what often pisses me off, courts don't order treatment as a general rule, in exchange for relative freedom.
Not that there are enough programs available. Maybe the judge should have ordered that he pawn his wii to pay for it, 500 bucks will get you about 6 private seesions with a good therapist. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/29/2009 6:56:29 AM | The kid hasn't been convicted of anything yet, and some of the charges were supposed to be dropped when he finished some classes, he just hadn't finished all the classes (There's a lot missing from the report, as usual).
Judges can't order any kind of treatment without consent of the accused, and really, there's not that many available. 6 private sessions won't be enough, and he'd never get $500 from pawning a wii.
There were other conditions including that he continue to be monitored by the youth bail management program where he has to report in once a month, attend school regularly, be in for a 9:00 curfew, and abstain from intoxicants. He was doing all those, and the report from the youth bail worker was positive.
He didn't assault a student, the TA thought he was going to, so she physically restrained him and he fought back. The "boy" who was hit over the head with a pool cue was an adult male that had been provoking the youth (seriously- what pathetic adult picks on a kid?) And the kid who was punched in the face (allegedly) is 2 years older than the accused.
Dean Pritchard however always tends to pick the thing defence counsel says that can provoke the most controversy. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/29/2009 7:00:28 AM | | Oh, and that crown was also the one where the judge called her out twice that week for drawing HUGE assumptions and "fortune telling" instead of simply providing the facts. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/29/2009 7:48:55 AM | I've said the same thing for many years now,after hearing some the excuses defence lawyers come up with for their clients' behavior. But I do realise they are being paid to do so,and often it's probably the client's explanation of the situation. Just sit back and enjoy. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/29/2009 7:49:35 AM | And the kid who was punched in the face (allegedly) is 2 years older than the accused.
OK I didn't realize it was alright to punch people older than yourself.
the report from the youth bail worker was positive
Big surprise.
The kid hasn't been convicted of anything yet, and some of the charges were supposed to be dropped when he finished some classes, he just hadn't finished all the classes (There's a lot missing from the report, as usual).
Doesn't matter if he's been convicted yet or not, he's still a criminal until the charges are dropped ( and if he did commit a crime he's still a criminal even if the charges are dropped).
Mainly, it's the "sticky situations" comment the lawyer made that sounds stupid. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/29/2009 9:03:17 PM | | It looks like "sticky situations" was the word choice of the reporter. The article quotes extensively about what was said in the courtroom and each direct phrase that was quoted was placed in quotation marks. The phrase sticky situations is not put in quotation marks, so it seems unlikely that the defence lawyer used those words herself. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 10/30/2009 1:51:13 PM | Actually, the thread title is too restictive, it should also include stupid judgements by the judges & goofs by the crown attorneys & police.
I gotta win a big lottery soI can create a halfway house for repeat offenders to live in while on parole, to prove they have been rehabilitated. Of course the place would have to be in a good area of the city, not areas like the north end, to allow them to avoid exposure to the criminal elements thay could keep them from becoming valued members of society.... maybe a nice big house in a posh neighborhood ( hopefully next door to a judge) full of bleeding heart liberals that say incarceration is wrong for rehabilitation. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/2/2009 6:30:03 PM | Just out of curiosity, Susan please enlighten us as to what you would say on behalf of this client were you representing him. It is easy to be critical. I don't see you offering up a better alternative.
Defence Lawyers do not have to take IQ tests. They do, however, have to do suffiently well in two or three years of university and on the LSAT exam (which is, in many ways, an IQ test) to get admitted to law school; pass exams in law school, graduate, then spend a year articling, where they write a series of bar exams.
There are so many posts in these forums where everybody is an idiot: the judge is stupid, the Crown Attorney is stupid, the defence attorney is stupid ... Maybe not all people connected with the legal system are stupid. It just might be that dealing with complex social and legal problems within the limited framework of the legal system is not that easy.
It is easy to sit on the sidelines and take potshots espousing a "hang them high" philosophy, but it really does nothing to solve the problem.
What are you going to do, send a twelve year old to the Federal Pen.?
If all lawyers are such idiots, why don't those who are constantly complaining about them get off their ass, go to law school, and put the fools out of business? After all, if they are all so stupid, it really shouldn't be all that difficult.
Alternatively, instead of sniping, consider offering concrete alternative solutions. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/2/2009 9:45:21 PM |
Just out of curiosity, Susan please enlighten us as to what you would say on behalf of this client were you representing him. It is easy to be critical. I don't see you offering up a better alternative.
As I'm not a lawyer, or trained in the law, I wouldn't pretend to sound like I'd know what to say, but I know that if my client were charged with :
1) vandalism
2) assault
3) breaching court orders
( some details? : allegedly used a rock-filled sock to smash the door windows of his elementary school.... Days later, he chased a classmate and punched him several times in the face... breaching a court order he not attend his school. He is accused of breaching that order at least three times. ... allegedly hit another boy over the head with a pool cue... latest arrest was Oct. 16 when he allegedly attacked a male student and female teacher at his new school following a game of dodge ball)
I wouldn't say "he's not out of control, he just repeatedly finds himself in the middle of sticky situations"
Maybe not all people connected with the legal system are stupid.
Definitely not, but these ( the screwups, errors, etc) are the incidents that will be reported by the media and that the public will respond to.
Like the old saying goes, justice must not only be done, justice must be seen to be done ( I may have mangled the actual quote, if someone has the exact quote pleaseenlighten us). When we see repeat offenders get only a slap on the wrist ( and in the case of young offenders, usually not even that) then of course the public starts viewing the justice system as failing.
What are you going to do, send a twelve year old to the Federal Pen.?
No, but for a start make the youth's parent, parents, or guardian financially responsible for any damages their child causes. Junior stole and totalled a car? Guess what dad ( or mom) you just bought a car. Junior set fire to someone's garage? Guess what mom ( or dad) , you're buying the victim a new garage.
There's a couple alternate solutions for you. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/2/2009 9:47:08 PM |
It looks like "sticky situations" was the word choice of the reporter. The article quotes extensively about what was said in the courtroom and each direct phrase that was quoted was placed in quotation marks. The phrase sticky situations is not put in quotation marks, so it seems unlikely that the defence lawyer used those words herself.
But the article states
"The boy's lawyer said he's not out of control, he just repeatedly finds himself in the middle of sticky situations. "
Looks like the lawyer said it; and I never saw a retraction in the paper stating the lawyer was misquoted. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/3/2009 9:33:47 AM | Seriously- the child hasn't been convicted of anything yet!!! It was a bail hearing. This isn't a "slap on the wrist" punishment, because the court has no basis to punish a 12 year old with no criminal record.
And Sue, I have a client being sued by an insurance company for damage he caused- so some people do go after money they're out. But do you really think asking a kid who's parents are on social assistance to pay for damage the kid caused is going to work? So his little brothers and sisters go without food for a week because Mom had to pay for a window? | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/3/2009 11:49:39 AM |
Looks like the lawyer said it; and I never saw a retraction in the paper stating the lawyer was misquoted. That’s either a comment from a facetious and sarcastic individual, or from someone who reads at a fourth grade level. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/3/2009 12:15:33 PM | But do you really think asking a kid who's parents are on social assistance to pay for damage the kid caused is going to work? So his little brothers and sisters go without food for a week because Mom had to pay for a window?
So you're saying the parent/guardian of the kid ( in your hypothetical example) shouldn't be responsible for the actions of their child?
Hmm let's see then...
The youth isn't responsible becasue they are a youth....
The parent or guardian shouldn't be held responsible because they can't afford it....
( how is thatargument supposed to work? the legal system isn't supposed to impose sentences the parent or guardian can't afford???? )
So if you're on assistance you can't be held liable for the actions of your little angel?
Here's the solution :
Option 1, the parent/guardian says I can't afford to pay for what my child did so the child is taken by CFS & the parent is off the hook; problem solved.
Option 2 the parent or guardian keeps their bundle of joy & their assiatance $$ is garnisheed a portion ( let's say $20 a month) until the cost is recouped.
The current system, no one but the taxpayer pays, and we cansee how well that works.
Seriously- the child hasn't been convicted of anything yet!!!
No, he hasn't, but he also hasn't been cleared of the charges yet, so according to the online legal dictionaryI perused, he is still a criminal by definition.
Legal Dictionary
Main Entry: 1crim·i·nal Pronunciation: 'kri-m&-n&l Function: adjective 1 : relating to, involving, or being a crime 2 : relating to crime or its prosecution criminal action> —compare CIVIL 4, PENAL
Main Entry: 2criminal Function: noun 1 : one who has committed a crime 2 : a person who has been convicted of a crime | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/3/2009 12:21:35 PM |
Looks like the lawyer said it; and I never saw a retraction in the paper stating the lawyer was misquoted. That’s either a comment from a facetious and sarcastic individual, or from someone who reads at a fourth grade level.
Try to keep up, flyin.
The article states :
The boy's lawyer said he's not out of control, he just repeatedly finds himself in the middle of sticky situations.
Now if you read that sentence it states :
The boy's lawyer SAID
Not "the boy's lawyer implied he's not out of control, he just repeatedly finds himself inthe middle of sticky situations" | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/3/2009 12:29:34 PM | Sue- you can't use common meanings of words when in a legal context and the word has a specific legal meaning. He hasn't been convicted, he has no record, he can't be punished by a judge. Its THAT simple.
Putting a kid with CFS doesn't help anything because our cfs system is completely f*cked up. (CFS: completely f*cked System). And I can assure you CFS won't pay a dime. CFS won't pay for their wards to have legal representation.
When your "solution" causes all other kinds problems, its not much of a solution. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/3/2009 1:18:04 PM | When your "solution" causes all other kinds problems, its not much of a solution.
OK CFS isn't a viable option? Then lock them up or make the parent/guardian pay..
What's your solution?
And if CFS is f***ed up ( like the legal system) then it should be fixed. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/4/2009 7:06:05 PM |
"I know it doesn't look good," Serena Puranen said. "I've never seen him enraged, I've never seen him upset. He's a 12-year-old who is generally quite scared." Little bit of lawyer/liar (funny how those words sound similar)double speak there. She's never seen him upset yet he is generally quite scared. Fear is upsetting and if you are chronically afraid then you theoretically should be generally upset. Maybe she should spend some time at school with him and play some dodge ball. Could be she should sit down give him some titty and talk through his fears then tell him how special he is and how the rest of the world is obviously wrong in their way of living. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/4/2009 8:11:48 PM |
Could be she should sit down give him some titty and talk through his fears then tell him how special he is and how the rest of the world is obviously wrong in their way of living.
Naw, ifthe youth isn't a "bad" kid, the lawyer hasn't seen him upset & he just finds himself in the middle of sticky situations then the youth should be released into the lawyer's custody, & live with the lawyer until his case is heard.
And as usual my suggestions on how to deal with these kind of cases are brushed aside was unworkable, but no alternatives are offered up
Guess we should all enroll in the liberal bleeding heart "Handwringing 101" course & deal with these problems by lamenting the system doesn't work & wring our hands in dismay ( students may supply their own crying towels, or a crying towel will be provided for a nominal fee. Should you be unable to afford the fee, then no problem, we'll getthe government to pay for it). | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/4/2009 9:15:16 PM |
And as usual my suggestions on how to deal with these kind of cases are brushed aside was unworkable, but no alternatives are offered up You have to make suggestions that are designed to limit freedom of the mass population while not an encumbrance on the individual. Such as the imobilizer program in Manitoba. Kid steals a car and all the people who have that model of vehicle get forced to purchase an imobilizer. Kid gets a 5 minute time out. Everybody wins, that's the liberal way, nobody is responsible for their actions. I wish it were simply handwringing they were doing, unfortunately their goals are far more sinister and leave a permanent scar. It's a slow process and it has just started. Step one is for the people to wake up and see what has been happening and that step is just now in the process of starting. Have faith in whatever you can take faith in,and keep fighting. In a few generations we will have righted the evil turn our nation has taken. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/5/2009 12:14:04 AM | Guess the solution is to put collars around their necks instead of around their ankles. Make the collars impossible to remove without the right electronic key. Lock a base unit in their residence. Set a reasonable distance into the base unit ( perhaps 100 feet).
When the person gets more than 100 feet away from the base unit, the explosive charge in the collar goes off. Problem solved.
Or a collar with an indelible dye package in it, like some banks & ATM machines use. If the person gets more than100 feet from the base unit, or trys to remove the collar, the dye explodes & colours the punk. Then have an automatic reward system in place, bring the dye tinted person to the nearest police station & get your reward. If the person resists, use whatever force is necessary to subdue them. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/5/2009 5:54:41 AM | A good defence lawyer will do their best to win their client's case, without breaking the law or the bar rules applicable in the jurisdiction. The law doesn't always work according to common sense rules but if you sit in on a couple of good criminal trials you get the idea.
A good defence lawyer will also carefully cross-examine witnesses presented by the prosecution and do their best to undermine their testimony in court. A good defence lawyer will also try to ensure evidence which is tainted (i.e. confessions that were obtained illegally or improperly) is excluded while also objecting to dodgy forms of evidence such as hearsay, or questionable identification evidence (such as grainy videos that don't really show anything sufficient to identify someone). It is pretty important to keep in mind in common law countries at least unless statute provides otherwise, the prosecution has to prove beyond reasonable doubt each element of the offence someone has been charged with and also the person charged did it. Basically someone is innocent unless they can be proven guilty of an offence by admissible evidence (or they admit guilt). These standards mirror international human rights standards set out in treaties like the ICCPR, which require people charged with an offence to be given a fair trial and to have access to legal representation.
Another problem is criminal trials are costly exercises and courts are often loaded down with cases. The justice system also has limited resources and funds (legal aid is limited for example). Even criminal trials over fairly 'minor' matters such as a reasonably serious traffic offence can cost thousands of dollars for the defendant if they get a good barrister, not to mention the costs for the state. It may well be in the best interests of all involved if the State Prosecutor's Department exercises its discretion not to prosecute if there are good reasons to do so in the interests of the public saving funds and resources and in having alternatives to costly trials and possible prison sentences for behavious which may just be due to youthful stupidity rather than calculated evil.
A further problem is locking up young people in prison for fairly minor offences (such as vandalism or stealing) can make the problems that lead to them committing crime become worse and introduce them to a life of criminality by being exposed to other offenders. The rates of recividism are high and a criminal record makes prospects for rehabilitiation difficult (because of the obvious disdain by employers to hire people with criminal records) In Australia there has been a very serious problem in the criminal justice system in that the Aboriginal people here are often put into prison or the juvenile justice system from early youth which magnifies the many disadvantages they already suffer (such as high unemployment, drug and alcohol abuse, welfare dependency, poverty, health problems, etc).
I don't believe society should condone crime but I think severely punishing young offenders and doing away with the rules and presumptions in the justice system which try to ensure fairness in criminal trials should be easily done away with. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/5/2009 7:52:48 PM |
locking up young people in prison for fairly minor offences (such as vandalism or stealing) can make the problems that lead to them committing crime become worse and introduce them to a life of criminality by being exposed to other offenders
I'd say if they're commiting vandalism & stealing it means they've already been introduced to a life of criminality. If we aren't going to incarcerate the offenders ( and for minor crimes that's quite likely) then someone has to be made responsible for the actions of the young offenders & should be made to make restitution for their offences.
The only ones that can be made responsible are the youths themselves or the youths' parents or guardians. The currnet system, the young offenders commit crimes & get at most a stern lecture before being released; so all they learn is that there are no serious consequences for their actions.
The boy used as the example to start this thread has a Wii. Maybe if it was confiscated, auctioned off, and the funds went to thevictims of his crimes he'd figure out that if I do bad, I get punished. Maybe the youths that start fires should have their possesions collected into a pile & burned, then fire might not be such aneat thing. And that'd be cheaper than incarcerating them. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/5/2009 10:46:43 PM |
The only ones that can be made responsible are the youths themselves or the youths' parents or guardians. The currnet system, the young offenders commit crimes & get at most a stern lecture before being released; so all they learn is that there are no serious consequences for their actions.
you gotta be a little bit reasonable. First you tell the parents/guardians that they are not allowed any effective means of control over a child then you expect them to be responsible for the actions of the child you wouldn't let them gain control of. In the society we live a child who does not have something the majority of families have could get a court to order his parents to provide that luxury. For example television or a computer. these have become the norm and a court would rule it cruel and unusual to not provide that for the child. When it comes to family law the parents will lose every time. Until you change the entitlement attitude of society as a whole you can not hope to make headway in having an effective legal system or even an effective parliamentary system. Family values and justice etc are all a thing of the past until we eliminate the liberals from our midst. | |
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| Defence lawyers say the stupidest things... Posted: 11/5/2009 11:52:32 PM |
First you tell the parents/guardians that they are not allowed any effective means of control over a child then you expect them to be responsible for the actions of the child you wouldn't let them gain control of.
I never told any parents they aren't allowed any effective means of control. In any event, if the parent feels that way, then when their spawn commits criminal acts the parents can tell the judge that since they as parents aren't allowed to discipline their child, they're turning their child over to the justice department to see that they're raised properly. Let CFS deal with them, and if CFS isn't able to control them then we build really remote wilderness camps with teachers there.
If the youth doesn't attend classes & work the youth doesn't eat. Maybe a movie night once a week for the youths there that haven't misbehaved. No TV, no internet, but provide a library... if the youth leaves the camp then the youth takes their chances in the wild, no search parties and we let nature deal with them. | |
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