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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/29/2009 8:24:17 AM | From this story:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/multimedia/40364
In his interview, Heuer also confirmed the timetable for switching the LHC back on following the electrical fault that occurred on 19 September last year and led to 53 magnets having to be repaired or replaced. As CERN announced last month, beams will be injected into the 27 km long circular accelerator in mid-November with collisions taking place a few weeks later. "I am pretty confident that we will have the first collisions this year," says the CERN boss. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/29/2009 9:13:55 AM |  About time! I can't wait for the results. I hope it actually happens in mid november and I hope it gives physicists the tools they need to make light of this quantum gravity thing. Its alot of hoping but 27 km of a circular atom smashy thingy requires a hope that is related to the implications of the thing.. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/29/2009 12:53:40 PM | They're taking their time getting it working.
Mind you, I've read that some scientists believe that the universe won't let it start, as it would violate some rule of science or other.
By the way, is it really true that it's colder than deep space? | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/29/2009 1:09:49 PM | | In order to do that, it would have to be less than 2.73 degrees K above absolute zero. It's not impossible. They found a nebula that is actually colder, as a result of the gas's rapid expansion. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 12:26:06 AM | There is a crazy theory going around (CERN community) that the future is hijacking it's own past so that we are unable to discover if the higgs particle is real. It has to do with the conservation of information or something of that sort. Lets wait and see what happens! | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 10:50:32 AM |
There is a crazy theory going around (CERN community) that the future is hijacking it's own past so that we are unable to discover if the higgs particle is real. It has to do with the conservation of information or something of that sort.
Do you have a citation? It's more likely, they just had a technical glitch. Chances are, there will be a few more before all is said and done. Hardly any need for exotic exxplanations like the future interfering with the past. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 12:28:53 PM |
There is a crazy theory going around (CERN community) that the future is hijacking it's own past so that we are unable to discover if the higgs particle is real. It has to do with the conservation of information or something of that sort.
Sounds as crazy as it does stupid. The reason it's taking so long is because, like all major projects, shit happens.
Lets see you and your buddies join together 27 miles of steel, rubber, generators, and superconducting magnets and see if one little thing doesn't go wrong. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 1:00:19 PM |
Lets see you and your buddies join together 27 miles of steel, rubber, generators, and superconducting magnets and see if one little thing doesn't go wrong. That's shorter than the length of London. The National Electricity Grid goes over the whole of the UK. So do the phone lines. So does the gas network. Mind you, if they blew up, you KNOW that the relevant electricity company, the phone company, or the gas company, would get the blame, and would be liable for serious compensation. I just cannot see the world suing a bunch of scientists who "just want to prove the Higgs boson exists". So there really isn't anywhere near as much incentive to get it right.
Blame it on human nature. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 1:10:58 PM |
So there really isn't anywhere near as much incentive to get it right.
It's a different incentive. We are talking an expensive piece of equipment building by a lot of people with a specific purpose in mind. Somehow, when things went wrong, I don't think you got an exchange in the control room like..
Tech 1: "Hey, we've got a redline on supeconductor B3375."
Tech 2: "Yeah, jeez. We should probably look into that at some point. Hey! Did you catch that soccer game?"
Nope...I suspect the language was a bit...um..."saucier!"
Huge, complex machines, by their very nature, tend to have "bugs" in the system. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 1:30:14 PM | That's shorter than the length of London. The National Electricity Grid goes over the whole of the UK. So do the phone lines. So does the gas network. Mind you, if they blew up, you KNOW that the relevant electricity company, the phone company, or the gas company, would get the blame, and would be liable for serious compensation. I just cannot see the world suing a bunch of scientists who "just want to prove the Higgs boson exists". So there really isn't anywhere near as much incentive to get it right.
True. BUT, you must remember these utilities are not accelerating matter to 99.99% the speed of light and smashing them together to analyze the reactions that take place. And so we can make that sound real, let's just say 670,000,000 miles per hour.
Also, I believe I mistyped when I wrote 27 miles, I meant 27 kilometers. Anyway, lets return to the argument here.
I've heard this theory of the future sabotaging any efforts to open up this "god particle" and it does a good job of tickling that part of me thats amazed by scientific anomalies and phenomena, but I don't think that is really a decent way of describing how an electrical fault occurs.
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 1:35:25 PM | | its not a "god particle"...thats just a name an author unfortunately came up with for it. Its just a particle like all the others...just one we haven't experimentally found yet.......this stuff has nothing to do with the myth of religion. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 1:49:32 PM |
its not a "god particle"...thats just a name an author unfortunately came up with for it.
Just like when they announced the first discoveries of anisotropies in the cosmic microwave background in the early '90s. One of the scientists referred to it as kind of like "seeing the face of God" and, of course, the media ran with it.
Writers...and scientists...can and do get a little too poetic in their use of language sometimes. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 1:51:36 PM | You guys can check out the article here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/science/space/13lhc.html?_r=3
They aren't looking just for the Higgs particles but possible other dimensions and to see if SUSY particles can be found. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 10/30/2009 1:52:26 PM |
its not a "god particle"...thats just a name an author unfortunately came up with for it. Its just a particle like all the others...just one we haven't experimentally found yet.......this stuff has nothing to do with the myth of religion.
That's why I used quotation marks same as you. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 4:04:16 AM | Why are so many people getting hung up on the "god" thing. In this case it's good marketing. Lots of people that are paying for this (in taxes) "god particle" the "Higgs boson, etc." research. To most of them, the "god particle" is easier to understand. (It must be something really special).
Lots of those people don't use the scientific method, except for simple things like:When I walk in the water my feet get wet. That they understand. Harping on scientific method to them beyond that just gets them upset.
Just as Columbus was looking for "India", Cern is looking for the "Higgs", but if they don't find it, they'll still surely find something, and that's what they're really after. They need a "goal", be it India, or the Higgs.
So the "god particle" is good. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 5:45:41 AM | | I wonder if having the Hadron collider experiment eventually being successful in identifying the so called god particle will bring about the supposed shift in consciousness purported to occur @ 2012? Is it possible we might thereby recognize ourselves as part of the Source of this elaborate illusion of creation? | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 7:13:52 AM |
I wonder if having the Hadron collider experiment eventually being successful in identifying the so called god particle will bring about the supposed shift in consciousness purported to occur @ 2012?
LHC is a particle physics experiment. 2012 is a year. Nothing more. Nothing less. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 7:20:08 AM | LHC is a particle physics experiment. 2012 is a year. Nothing more. Nothing less.
It's also a film! 
I sure hope the LHC can start doing its thing. Waiting on potential discovery is so boring. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 3:18:01 PM | RE Msg: 9 by stargazer1000:
Tech 1: "Hey, we've got a redline on supeconductor B3375."
Tech 2: "Yeah, jeez. We should probably look into that at some point. Hey! Did you catch that soccer game?" Discussions generally don't go like that in the electricity grid either. They're more like:
Tech 1: "Hey, we've got a redline on supeconductor B3375."
Tech 2: "Yeah, jeez. That's gonna cause a power cut in sector 337. Do you think we can get away with ignoring it?
Tech 1: "There's a backup. So it won't fall over right away. But we'd better order it replaced today. If we don't, and the backup fails, it will take a week to fix it, and we'll get the blame, and we all know what happens then.
Tech 2: "Yeah. Johnson still is on JSA (Jobseeker's Allowance). Hey, did you hear his wife left him for a postman?"
Tech 1: "Yeah. Terrible shame. Once he lost his job, he went to pot. Doesn't even go out anymore. (Typing) OK. Done. Ordered. Did you see Arsenal play last night? That last goal was magic."
Huge, complex machines, by their very nature, tend to have "bugs" in the system. Don't I know it. IT systems are far worse. That's why they're always breaking down. But then, it's really hard to get hold of Microsoft Technical Support, and really hard to get a refund. Hardware is different. If it doesn't work, you send it back to the manufacturer. That's why you can try, but you'll almost never get a hardware failure. Compared to how many are made, they're practically bulletproof.
There isn't anyone who is going to ask for a refund on the LHC. But if there was, you can bet that this thing would be made working in a month.
RE Msg: 10 by False Profit:
True. BUT, you must remember these utilities are not accelerating matter to 99.99% the speed of light and smashing them together to analyze the reactions that take place. And so we can make that sound real, let's just say 670,000,000 miles per hour. Yes, it's fast. We've all seen what happened when Richard Hammond drove at almost 300 miles per hour, and crashed, because something went wrong. That's a very good reason why we need mission-critical level QA on this project.
I've heard this theory of the future sabotaging any efforts to open up this "god particle" and it does a good job of tickling that part of me thats amazed by scientific anomalies and phenomena, but I don't think that is really a decent way of describing how an electrical fault occurs. I don't think it was meant as a complete description, just an outline. Not saying that's what was occuring here at all. Sounds cooky.
But I've always wondered how paradoxes could be expected to work in the laws of Physics. I'd be very interested in a proper theoretical physical paper on how the laws of Physics might cause the future to stop certain events in the past from happening.
RE Msg: 17 by stargazer1000:
2012 is a year. Nothing more. Nothing less. Many hope. After all, many shifts in consciousness toppled the guys at the top. Just look at the change in consciousness in France in 1789. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 3:39:36 PM |
There is a crazy theory going around (CERN community) that the future is hijacking it's own past so that we are unable to discover if the higgs particle is real. It has to do with the conservation of information or something of that sort.
I've heard this "theory" as well. What it boils down to is that the Standard Model is an inconsistent theory (it requires all particles to be massless, but since they aren't the actual masses are inserted into the equations at the end). The Higgs Boson is a mechanism added onto the theory to make it consistent. They've been looking for it for years with no luck. In the past they've been able to get away with saying that they just need a more powerful accelerator (Higgs Boson theory is not well constrainted so they have a lot of wiggle room). Well, now they're running out of room. They now need to come up with some crazy rationalization for why the Higgs won't be found if the LHC doesn't find it. The fact that this "crazy theory" makes the Higgs Boson unfalsifiable is of no concern to the Disciples of Higgs. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 4:49:09 PM | | OK... Due to all the down time of the LHC at Cern, do you think we need another collider built elsewhere... I know it is a major monetary undertaking $40 billion or so... but would it be worth it... internationally funded of course.? | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 6:06:20 PM | I follow every aspect of LHC, and I love our step forward to learn more... For the record I'm not against it AT ALL... My only inkling or worry comes from a prophecy by the notorious Nostradamus... because I also love to read the stuff he wrote, and honestly to believe he saw something no one else could possibly understand.
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Leave, leave Geneva every last one of you,
Saturn will be converted from gold to iron,
Raypoz will exterminate all who oppose him,(?)
Before the coming the sky will show signs.
Migrés, migrés de Geneue trestous,
Saturne d'or en fer se changera,
Le contre Raypoz exteriminera tous,
Auvant l'aruent le ciel signes fera.
You've got to be careful with translations from Old French. The popular English version is not totally correct. Spellings vary in old texts, words change meanings and some become obscure.
The third line in question is one of a mistake in syntax. The translator was guessing here at the meaning. 'Le contre' clearly means 'the opposite'. 'Raypoz' is not a term used anywhere else in French and has no definite meaning. The opposite Raypos will exteriminate all, is the actual statement. 'Ray' is not French, though evidently it's Nostradamus' abbreviation of 'rayon', meaning 'ray.' 'Poz' is curiously written with a Z, a rare letter like in English, which indicates at least the pronunciation. 'Pos' for 'positive' is current in English as an abbreviation, and 'positif' is 'positive', though neither pos or poz would have been used in the Renaisance. Though the Z makes it clear that it isn't the French 'pos' which if so spelt would be pronounced like 'poe'. So 'poz' definately suggests 'positif'. Note that Nostradamus is consistent, using abbreviations to make up Raypos, as we do today. To call Raypoz the PositiveRay is a sound derivation, though it wouldn't have been understood back then, with the only rays being 'rayons de soleil' or sun rays, sunlight.
What is the Opposite of Raypos? A negative ray. In the case of the LHC, since they're using proton rays, the exact counterpart is antiproton rays, antimatter. So a matter/antimatter explosion destroying Geneva? All of us Trekkies know that. CERN experiments have confirmed it. And the Geneva Airport is a stone's throw away from the giant Atlas Experiment.
Two disturbing bits of information, the detail from the watercolor and the quatrain above. Have a look at number 3, the C4Q67:
The year that Saturn and Mars are equal fiery,
The air is very dry, a long meteor.(?)
From hidden fires a great place burns with heat,
Little rain, a hot wind, wars and raids.
L'an que Saturne & Mars esgaux combuste,
L'air fort sieché longe trajection.
Par feux secrets, d'ardeur grand lieu adust,
Peu pluie, vent chault, guerres, incursions.
You have to think like an astrologer here to make sense of the time clues he left in his works and consider his experience of the world. Nostradamus was himself a famous astrologer, well known for his almanac and the patronage he received at the court of Henry II of France and his Queen Catherine di Medici. But far from being in what we might consider a dubious profession, he was well respected and honest. Having studied with Rabelais at the same school, he was a Doctor of Medicine, perhaps the first of his day to insist on hygiene. Known also as a Mathematician, he was involved in public works projects, like the irrigation of the vast Paine de la Crau, which he also partly financed, near his home at Salon-de-Provence.
Both quatrains have astrological time clues. But Saturn wasn't discovered until after Galileo and the telescope. Well, like the modern method for inferring the presence of a celestial object by its apparent effect on other objects, modern astronomers have made similar guesses. With Nostradamus it was the careful study of Astrology that made Saturn real for him.
In the first quatrain, 'Saturn converted from gold to iron' is a metaphor for a conjuction where Saturn is unfavored, possibly eclipsed. In the other quatrain, 'The year that Saturn and Mars are equally fiery' could mean both are exhaulted. An astrologrer today might be able to put a date on this disaster at the LHC.
'The air is very dry, a long meteor.' is a suspect translation. The literal French is 'The air very dried long distance.' The air is dried by something and there is no meteor. The 'longe trajection' could be 'a long distance' and the drying is clear in the next line, not 'from' but 'by secret (not hidden) fires'. So we have poetically: The air dried for a long way / By secret fires of ardent power, a great place burns.
As a real warning of the burning of the LHC and Geneva, I think that it should be considered seriously. Reconsidering 120 tonnes of helium under 15-20 atmospheres pressure, much of it in an odd superfluid state at critically low 1.9 K temperature, and exposed in the ring to an 8.2 Tesla magnetic field, and the 'Raypoz' and its opposite, what might happen if not a plasma fire, some altered state of helium combusts due to the enormous TeV energies, 5 per beam and a collision force of 10 TeV scheduled this summer. Even worse, some nuclear event, as in an earlier post, The Almost Thermonuclear LHC. If I were in Geneva, I'd pack my bags.
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Source: http://bigsciencenews.blogspot.com/2008/05/nostradamus-and-lhc.html | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 6:22:38 PM |
I follow every aspect of LHC, and I love our step forward to learn more... For the record I'm not against it AT ALL... My only inkling or worry comes from a prophecy by the notorious Nostradamus... because I also love to read the stuff he wrote, and honestly to believe he saw something no one else could possibly understand.
First of all, lots of problems with going by Nostradamus.
Second, everything wrong with the quotation you offered. Not the least of which, the "discovery of Saturn" after the telescope. No, it was well known by the Greeks, Romans, etc., throughout history. | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 6:37:29 PM | Re: Stargazer
First of all, lots of problems with going by Nostradamus.
Yah, he wrote a lot... most of it is not understood or attached to events easily reconsied... but he nails a lot of major events. During world war II, Nastradamus propaganda was used to avoid a major war incident. Pamphlets where dropped on the city quoting what Nostradamus said and the disaster was averted
He talked about the 'new world' before Columbus ever sailed the ocean
He talked about the great ti-rents that would come to power
Like Napoleon
Like... Hitler... Only Nostradamus called him "Histler"
And someone he said would enter Europe wearing a blue turban... don't think that one has come to pass yet.
He got 9/11 down pretty good... and I'm not saying scrap the project... but I am saying... read the pamphlet.
Savvy?
It's one of the reasons I was happy to read there going at it pretty slow... there first real test of the machine will only be at a fraction of it's total power, I'm very happy that decision was made... as going slowly, and taking little steps, is a great way to kick it off :)
By the way, the author of that article was agreeing with you... Many of Nostradamus believers think that quote had to do with the discovery of the rings of Saturn, and because of the design, location of the LHC, and what it does... the quote sounds very much like it could be coming to pass... I agree with the Author... if I lived in Geneva, I would be packing my bags... Wasn't there a huge sign in the sky and a massive earthquake in China last time they turned those magnets on?
I can't wait to see what happens next :) | |
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| CERN/LHC starting up soon
Posted: 11/1/2009 7:10:44 PM | This is how I understand the project. Humans are trying to create a "small" blackhole on the planet Earth. Now all my life I've been told how dangerous blackholes are, and they should be avoided at all costs, spaghetti effect and such. And now we're trying to make one. Excuse me but doesn't this strike anyone else as insanity? I've heard about the parallel universes, and getting anti-matter. Another dangerous item I may add. What does this do to aid the human condition? Or am I all wrong on the Super-Collider that I've been hearing about the last few years?
I don't know it seems to me that the scientist are both mad and bored. A dangerous combination. | |
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