| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 4:25:56 AM | Cars could be fitted with aircraft-style black boxes, under European Commission plans that opponents fear could lead to an expansion of the big brother state.
The European Commission has spent £2.4 million on Project Veronica, a study on how the boxes would work. The boxes, known as an Event Data Recorders (EDR), could monitor vehicles' speed and the actions of the driver - when and how often the brakes, indicators and horn were applied.
Supporters say they could be used to reconstruct what happened in the event of a commission which would make it easier for insurance companies to decide who was at fault and, where necessary, enable police to take action against the driver.
It would also check whether built-in safety devices functioned properly.
However, the proposals are likely to trigger concern among civil liberties groups over the growth of the surveillance state.
Simon Davies, of Privacy International, warned that in future, such a system could be combined with other technology to keep a constant eye on motorists' every movement.
"If you correlate car tracking data with mobile phone data, which can also track people, there is the potential for an almost infallible surveillance system,"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/6479603/EU-proposes-black-boxes-for-cars.html
Do you think road safety issues should outweigh the possibility of your civil liberties being infringed?
Is the 'black box' a good idea in cars?
Pros and cons please...........
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 4:34:11 AM | | Yes, although it many not reveal the exact circumstances of a crash, it may help to determin the reasons, however they should only be fitted into new cars - i am against people be forced to modify a car that they already own if it going to cost them money. People would not tollerate that. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 4:40:49 AM | I can't see how a black box would improve road safety, because it's only ever going to be used after an accident has happened. If a black box is linked to a transmitter then it's going to let big brother know just about everything - speed, revs, throttle position, ABS and TCS activation etc. It won't give road conditions, report that the road surface was worn out and smothered in spilt diesel or that there was black ice.
What a potential waste of money. How many bikers are killed and injured each year due to spillled diesel from lorry tanks? The technology to resolve that is in existence is cheap and also prevents diesel being stolen by syphoning.
As Big Brother could already track movement and speed by any mobile phone in a vehicle and use of Sat Nav - it seems both an infringement of civil liberties and a misconstrued project - there are other road safety measures that could be imporved with better results. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 5:00:13 AM | | BooHoo poor car drivers, get real no body forces you to drive, its a choice not happy with the road laws, cost of fuel, traffic jams, speed cameras then get a bike or walk or use public transport. No sympathy for drivers at all. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 5:51:45 AM | Not opposed to the thinking behind this, but I'm not sure if the cost would be restrictive, I'm assuming that the cost of the units will be added to the price of the car, and the monitoring would be paid for by road tax?
I agree with poster 2 that forcing a retro-fit on current car owners would be unfair and yet another step towards taking older vehicles off the road if the owner cant afford the aftermarket black-box.
As long as the information is used only for crash investigation and not law enforcement, I can see the advantage.
BooHoo poor car drivers, get real no body forces you to drive, its a choice not happy with the road laws, cost of fuel, traffic jams, speed cameras then get a bike or walk or use public transport. No sympathy for drivers at all
A bit of a silly rant with no bearing on the topic under discussion. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 6:08:00 AM | Take the insurance companies out of the equation and it sounds like a good idea, providing it is only used as a tool to investigate possible causes of a crash.
I don't like the idea of insurance companies who already milk people dry trying to get out of even more claims because of some infringement that may or may not have caused the accident.
If it is ever implemented though, I can't see it being much longer after when they decide that the black boxes should be able to also influence the way we drive, slowing down speeding motorists etc.
This, coupled with a proper investigation is a good idea, trusting this data alone won't provide you with the whole picture. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 6:29:11 AM |
I don't like the idea of insurance companies who already milk people dry trying to get out of even more claims because of some infringement that may or may not have caused the accident.
Funny you should say that, because I believe there is already a scheme in existence in the USA, whereby you get insurance discount if you agree to a camera and storage device being fitted. The clip I saw, showed a driver falling asleep at the wheel, and veering off the road.
The police already do forensic work at the scene of fatal and serious accidents, to establish the speed of the impact, and the length of the skid etc.
We already have speed cameras, and in the city where I live (Oxford) we have something like 60 odd extra "traffic monitoring" cameras fitted with ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) On all the main roads into the city. So big brother is already watching us. We were not consulted, and I doubt if we will be on this.
Your Internet service providers are now obliged by law (Another anti-terrorism law) to keep 2 years worth of your internet browsing history, and eMails etc.
Your mobile telephone service providers similarly log two years of your calls, texts and cell locations, so they know everywhere you've been if you have a mobile.
1984?
Horse, stable door, bolted.
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 12:29:54 PM | BooHoo poor car drivers, get real no body forces you to drive, its a choice not happy with the road laws, cost of fuel, traffic jams, speed cameras then get a bike or walk or use public transport. No sympathy for drivers at all..msg5
if it wasnt for drivers you wouldnt exist you moron.how does food get to shops.feed to farms.goods to shops etc etc etc.what a prat you are | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 12:40:33 PM | | tottally against black box idea as it is only a matter of time before they are tracking where we are.monetering our speed,and probbly countless other sneaky underhand things that this stalinist goverment wants to come out with.big brother you best believe it | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 12:44:03 PM | Moron you say, hmmm!
Try re-reading my post, I clearly state CAR drivers, last time I looked it was a giant Tesco Lorry delivering to the supermarket not a fleet of tesco cars.. most major haulage in modern society is undertaken by trucks, vans, lorries, not cars.
Now who is the moron again, urm let me think yep its you, for not being able to read a post properly and making incorrect judgements on a sentence, that you mis read,.
if it wasnt for drivers you wouldnt exist you moron
Are you also suggesting that before the motor vehicle was invented, there was no life at all, or is that we only got the use of our legs and the ability too utilise beasts once the motor engine was invented?
how do you like them apples . | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 12:51:04 PM | why not just build the car out of the same stuff they build the black boxes out of?
Surely that would be a better idea if they are indestructible?
:) | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 1:03:35 PM | I am entirely in agreement.
They should all have compulsory black boxes,
so when the pillocks drive too fast on a canal bank and end up in the water,
or a car thief dumps it in the canal......
they search and rescue the offending vehicle before it wrecks someones holiday , or home, or injures a genuine canal user. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 1:18:15 PM | Sorry a big fat no from me first of all it was microchips in our bins CCTV everywhere!!! now it's gonna be black boxes in our cars its an infringment of our civil liberties...............
In fact hey lets just forget about everything else no ID Cards boxes or cameras needed lets just microchip people COME ON WAKE UP and smell the Bull***t | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 8:02:26 PM | Jammy D are you in greenpeace or something?? I suggest you go back into those mud tunnels or wave a placard outside a oil refinery while i speed past in my polluting sports car!!!
While aspects of black box technology might be useful, it would only work if you had ALL the facts. Plus the technology is far from accurate even now. The police use such units and regularly have to have the units reset after bumps in the road flag up a non event as an event!!!
The big brother system is going too far these days. All under the guise of public protection/terrorism or what ever excuse they choose to use. I value what little privacy i have left. What next, its a legal requirement to have cameras in bedrooms for all sex acts to help with potential paternity/rape cases??? 
This country is getting beyond a joke with all its laws. The really sad thing is a lot of these laws are misused from thier original purpose.
I can see them sneaking black boxes in underthe guise of a pay per mile road tax scheme. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/2/2009 11:33:41 PM | What another complete waste of money,
I have seen this technology around years ago where it constantly records the last minute of a journey, in the event of an accident the 'box' saves all the information so that the data can be analyzed and a theory of how the accident happened.
Why would you need to record so much information. The majority of accidents are speed or fatigue related. On all modern HGV's now you have to have a tacho card which basically logs digitally on the built-in chip your speed and hours driven. The vehicle wont even start up unless it's in there, when you get pulled over VOSA don't even want to know you, they pull your card out, stick it in the machine and can tell if you have been speeding or done too many hours within the last month.
Most id driving licences have a chip in them and I am sure this will be used for car drivers in the future, they will be able to program in other features for example, the car cannot start unless the licencee is insured to driver.
Anyway, I have no idea why they spent 2.4 million on something that has already been studied, Europe got money to burn all of a sudden. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:05:11 AM |
I can't see how a black box would improve road safety....
If people know that their movements/speed/actions immediately prior to an accident can be accessed and analysed, it might just make them concentrate a bit more.
Also, it will make the tracking of stolen vehicles easier, and may prevent thefts. After all, many accidents are caused by people driving carelessly in stolen vehicles.
Plus, manufacturers will use information from it to monitor the performance of various safety features. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 11:43:40 AM | That would be a huge NO from here as well. Especially when I read this: "..in the event of a commission which would make it easier for insurance companies to decide who was..." So we should accept to be monitored just to satisfy the insurance companies? Hell no, what will be next, all computers must have an monitoring program on to check if people copy their music or dvds?
As already said, the black box doesn't benefit you, it only helps companies to get another loophole to avoid pay out money, in exchange for your rights. | |
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JTFN
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Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 19 | |
| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:01:39 PM |
As long as the information is used only for crash investigation and not law enforcement, I can see the advantage.
Yes if thats all they ever do with it. The use for tracking car theft (have to be vandle proof then) as another poster said is not so bad either, but to start the car you should have your own ID that cannot be stolen. Maybe the poster who said we should all be micro chipped was right...
Hmmm not so sure about this one at all.
My answer is NO they should not have them.
Yet. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:24:35 PM | I can't see how a black box would improve road safety
Because of the threat of the driver's inadequacies being brought to light in the event of a collision.
How many bikers are killed and injured each year due to spillled diesel from lorry tanks?
A minority compared to those killed because they're riding like complete prats no doubt...
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 12:38:30 PM | For once I agree with you San Toki,
How often do you see big yellow warning signs on country roads saying "Think Bike " etc, and,... as you pass those signs, some pillock on a Honda Fireblade passes you and the procession of cars in front on a blind bend..... on the wrong side of a double white line,
Think Bike- think deserve everything that comes the other way. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/3/2009 1:03:37 PM | | It may surprise you to know how close we are to cars being fitted with black boxes! Most 'high end' cars already are computerised, and the data can be downloaded for use in investigation of an accident. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/4/2009 2:12:50 AM |
I can't see how a black box would improve road safety, because it's only ever going to be used after an accident has happened.
You could say the same thing about aircraft black boxes, they are only used after an accident.... but they have been instrumental in making flying the safest form of transport because the cause of accidents can be fully analysed and safer aircraft designed around the results of the analysis.
Could the same thing happen to road transport? Maybe it would help.
I'm afraid I fall into the camp of "If you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" so I would welcome the addition of a black box if it would help road safety. | |
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| Should Cars Have Black Boxes ?
Posted: 11/4/2009 8:49:30 AM |
Also, it will make the tracking of stolen vehicles easier, and may prevent thefts.
Trackers are already available yet only a tiny fraction of car owners will fork out for them. And it still doesn't discourage car thieves.
I say no, even without the civil liberty issues. And who decides the cut off point on the vehicle age? If it were to be made legal that vehicles had to have them fitted, guess who pays for it?
Correct. Us. | |
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