| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/3/2009 10:28:29 AM | OTEC is Ocean Thermal energy Conversion. It works by using the temperature differential between water from very deep in the ocean and warm surface water. The more the temperature differential, the more energy generated, to put it in a nutshell.
This seems to be a very viable source of energy. I would ask why it is not in more popular use........... There are ways to increase the water temperature by simple solar heat to increase the efficiency.........................
Does anybody know if there are any other places where OTEC tech is being used other than the Kona coast?
This is great stuff.
Paul K | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/3/2009 2:33:10 PM |
Does anybody know if there are any other places where OTEC tech is being used other than the Kona coast?
I know in Toronto they use OTEC Technology to cool some of their buildings.
They are not producing power but utilizing the same principals.
http://www.enwave.com/dlwc.php | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/3/2009 3:02:59 PM | | Well part of the reason is input versus output. In order for this to be a viable source of energy, it needs to generate a generous amount of power, and to do that, you need to have a system that works in such a way that the amount of energy generated is enough to overcome the amount needed to convert that energy into electricity. And that differential needs to be substantial enough to power a significant sized country. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/3/2009 3:36:07 PM | Conservationists...they don't want that technology in the oceans. They lobby hard against it.
Hudson River, New York...a torpedo shaped and sized generator sits quietly in the water, generating power. Designed to do the "least harm" to local wildlife. A spinning propeller can cut fins and injure fish and other marine life. So, it is designed to cut down on that. there are dozens of them in the river. It took a lot of lobbying to get that done!
Now...think about the technology in the ocean. Big fish...whales...barging into things...the "noise" of them confusing marine mammals. There was a huge stink about Navy sonar bothering the whales. Think what this technology would do...what damage it would bring. Who'd be fighting it tooth and nail.
Good idea....but only for people willing to put humanity ahead of fish. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 10:15:45 AM | I've done a bit more reading about OTEC, and it seems that the best results are when the temperature disparity is the greatest........ It then would seem to me that the logical answer would be to preheat the water by running it through solar panels, then the temperature difference would be greater......................
I think that what they are doing in the Hudson is a great idea, there is an endless source of energy that could be tapped, one way or another. As far as the environmentalists, I have come to the conclusion that they WANT all of us to go back to 40 acres and a mule. If you were to look into who and what is populating the upper echelons of the green movement, you would see that "coincidentaly", after the Berlin wall and the soviet union fell, the environmentl movement got very big very fast............ Look up and see what 'ol scarface, mikahil segeyvic gorbachov is doing now adays to occupy his time.
Paul K | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 12:30:25 PM | I can tell you that the shape of the turbine isn't so much about protecting the fish, but the swirl vanes inside the turbine. You get a forgien object inside of a turbine it will break it. Which is costly to repair esp. if it is submerged. Think of the goose that went into the turbine of the United Airlines Plane that landed on the Hudson.
I would say that it would be more practical to put Nuclear power stations near the sea, which will cut down on the overall development costs. No cooling towers required. See Calvert Cliffs, in Lusby, MD (Baltimore Gas and Electric/Constellation Energy Group) | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 3:08:53 PM | hey Gadget
There are two power plants at San Onofre, between LA and SD, right on the shore. They are like big balls, round in shape, right next to each other, so at distance, from a boat they look a pair of boobs......... :) :) When they were built you had the "end of the world, nuclear is of the devil" contingent demonstrating, saying how all the fish will glow green, etc.........
The problem they are having today is that the water that is used to cool the reactors is a little warmer than the sea water, and that promotes kelp growth, and that promotes small fish, that promote big fish................... Amazingly enough, no green glowing fish have been caught to date. You are not supposed to go within a certain distance from the plant, but fishing boats go there all the time,because the fishing is good.
Paul K | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 4:04:17 PM | | The boat distance is a Security thing. Peach Bottom is the same thing. It's true that it heats the water. That's why I suggested it. That is the biggest pollution that an atomic power plant makes. I bet that you didn't know that most atomic waste is water, and cooling rods. Some of the waste can be reprocessed for industrial use, and kill terrorists. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 4:23:10 PM | ^^^^^^
When I was a pup, I had a girlfriend in college in the early '70's whose father was one of the original physicists at Los Alamos. I spent week at their house once, and went to the facility with him. I am certain I didn't see all there was to see, but it was beyond facinating.............. He died of a brain tumor in '73. Nice guy. He told me all the stats as to how little radiation actually gets out of nuke plants, and this was many years ago.
Today the french are way ahead of us in nuclear technology use, and from what I've read, they have ways to reduce the "waste" to almost nothing. Yet we insist on being tied to early 20th century electrical production technology. Sad.
I had a rather fast fishing boat, a 31' Fountain, and when I first got it, went right to the area outside of the San Ono plant, and just started putting fish on board like there was no tomorrow. After about an hour, we pulled up anchor, and went to move, only to have a RIB, all black, with a .50 cal. on the front, try to chase us down. After pulling away for about few minutes, I realized they meant business, and stopped........ It was the Navy Seals who were attached to the security detail for the plant. They weren't too amused that they didn't have the fastest boat in the water, but we worked it out where I got to keep the boat, but not the fish.........................
Paul K | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 4:36:19 PM | | A piece of Uranium 235 that is the size of a pencil eraser can power an entire plant. I guess that you were fishing post 9/11. Homeland Security doesn't play games when it comes to atomic power plant security. But most plants are built to withstand a Boeing 747 chasing into them. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 4:59:20 PM | Couple of years ago the local coal fire plant suffered a generator bearing explosion...Nobody hurt, but that "end of the world, nuclear is of the devil" contigent group came out to remind us all that if the plant were nuclear we would all be dead, dead, DEAD!
Really, if the newer plant designs changed thier name to "reactive steam power" I'd think you would confuse the lot of them  | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 5:12:45 PM |
OTEC is Ocean Thermal energy Conversion. It works by using the temperature differential between water from very deep in the ocean and warm surface water. The more the temperature differential, the more energy generated, to put it in a nutshell. Cool idea. Not to put a damper on it, but fish use some of that energy. So we do need to test its effects, and ensure that we don't remove too much energy, and kill off the fish life. We need fish to eat.
This seems to be a very viable source of energy. I would ask why it is not in more popular use........... There are ways to increase the water temperature by simple solar heat to increase the efficiency......................... It will be. But only once it has fulfilled the same criteria as other popularly-used energy sources:
1) That it's cheap and easy for corporations to make and distribute to consumers for commercial profit. Why sell something that won't make you money ?
2) That most people don't make it for themselves. Why sell something that others can get for free?
3) That other existing profitable energy sources are no longer viable for profit. Why invest in a new industry if you are still making good profits from an existing one? | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/7/2009 5:28:51 PM | Atomic plants don't explode they melt down. In other-words they run out of water to cool them, and slow the Fission reaction. Chynobel anyone? That was the worst atomic accident in history, and it didn't explode. I really hate uninformed Enviromentalists. I'm all for conserving, and reducing waste, but if you have to lie about come on people get a grip.
OTEC
That sounds like it would be complex on a Thermodynamic level. Just trying to produce the "heat" energy sounds expensive. Paul do you have any links to this method of energy conversion. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 12:41:24 PM | Hey gadget
Just type in "OTEC power plant hawaii" in any search engine. Wikipedia has a pretty good basic explanation. It works like an air conditioning unit does. What also is great about this system is that it has byproducts of distilled water and sea salt!
Great stuff.
Paul K | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 1:44:27 PM |
Atomic plants don't explode they melt down. In other-words they run out of water to cool them, and slow the Fission reaction.
The water does nothing to slow the fission reaction, the reaction is controlled by carbon rods which absorb the radiation depending on there position relative to the reactive mass.
Chynobel anyone? That was the worst atomic accident in history, and it didn't explode.
No it didn't but its radiation cloud was felt as far away as the UK. Radioactive particles were detected in the grazing pastures used by sheep farmers, albeit quite small amounts.
The radiation from the plant has caused major health problems for both the people who lived in the area and the emergency services who responded to the incident. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 1:51:06 PM |
This seems to be a very viable source of energy. I would ask why it is not in more popular use...........
This seems to be similar to the technology used in domestic heat pumps where the sub-surface temperature differential is used both as a heating(in winter) and cooling(in summer) system. The initial cost of such a system is higher than a furnace/AC unit but the running costs are much less, I believe it is something like a 10 year ROI(Return on Investment).
I would think wave power would be cheaper to implement and easier to manage. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 3:24:02 PM | Thurms we both know that the carbon cooling rods are submerged into the water tank t "catch" the electrons. It is how far into the these rods enter the tank that controls the amount of Fission reaction.
The point was about explosion, I was making about Chyrnoble. But your point about the radioactive fall-out is correct. As a matter of fact that is how we even knew that here had been accident in the USSR was because the radiation levels over the Baltic Sea region Spiked, well outside of normal background radiation.
I'm looking up the info on OTEC now Paul. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 3:29:01 PM | Hey Thrums
you wrote:
"I would think wave power would be cheaper to implement and easier to manage"
Is this sort of like "surfs up" waves? Sounds great, how does it work, as there is lots of coastline where it could be implemented.........
Paul K | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 3:37:14 PM |
What also is great about this system is that it has byproducts of distilled water and sea salt!
There are other benefits as well. Since the system relies on deep-ocean water for cooling, nutrients are brought up from the bottom towards the surface. More nutrients means it can support great numbers of marine life. One proposal for an OTEC system couples it with large-scale fish farming
The main drawback is getting the power from the generator to the consumer. Since the system works most effectively where there is a relatively large temperature difference, the ideal locations are equatorial... at latitudes no greater than the Tropic of Cancer/Capricorn. That's a LOT of cable to string along the bottom...  Unless you want to try your hand at transferring the power via microwave beams and relay satellites to your distribution centers.
Another drawback is maintenance - salt water tends to corrode piping rapidly.
It *is* a system that ought to be looked into... to discover which system is the most effective. (Closed-cycle versus open, how to transfer the power, etc...) | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 3:53:43 PM | the ocean ecosystems have been interfered with so much in the past with drastic effects that any major projects in the oceans today would need lots and lots of proof of safety before being allowed to proceed.
I also agree its basicly what heatpumps do.
more and more houses in Canada are installing them.
as for tidal and wave generators .... the big one on line is in Ireland ... the first.
the idea has been around for decades ... I heard a proposal for the Bay Of Fundy
years ago but getting people to invest in the idea is the tough sell.
you need to prove its profitability to the investors and safety to the regulatory commissions.
Google ... tidal generators
[http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/seagen-tidal-stream-turbine/]
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 4:11:40 PM | It reminds me of a chiller system, more then a heat pump. HCFC's will be banded in the begining of 2010, in the US. So R-134 will not be able to used. It also looks very expensive to implement. Just looking at the Wiki math, that it will take more power to run the system then it will produce. It could be applied areas, like the gulf stream as well as Tropical areas. I would love to take a look at Lockeed's data. IMHO I would think that the closed system would be best. The condenseing unit would have to be massive. We're talking 100's of millions of dollars to build one.
Much like Gallium, it can make water combust, but you need a atomic reactor to reclaim it.
Thob it sounds interesting. I would love to see the actual data. The twin rotors and turbines are of great interest. I read your link but I'd like independent or peer review journals on the topic. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 4:44:12 PM | probably a bit of industrial secret aspect to the numbers ... like most new mega projects. I've seen other plans for more mechanical devices as wave generators but have yet to hear of any put into production. We in Canada are very locked into Nuclear and waterfall related with natural gas and coal backups ... but they do have a plan for a few hundred river current generators in the Niagara River ... probably similar to the one spoken of in the Hudson.
The other problem with submerged things in our waters now is Zebra mussles and keeping things clean. Maintenance is a big problem with all of this stuff and until things are actually on line... we won't know the real costs and side effects.
[trial and error ... they should be willing to start smaller and stop thinking mega project]
I just think of the heat pumps because they actually stop some of the energy transfer loss. We are not always wanting just electricity. ... its just electricity is the easiest way to transfer big energy over distances and what we really want is heat or cooling.
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/9/2009 5:07:17 PM | I just think of the heat pumps because they actually stop some of the energy transfer loss. We are not always wanting just electricity. ... its just electricity is the easiest way to transfer big energy over distances and what we really want is heat or cooling.
That's why a closed system would be best. A chiller is a low pressure cooling system, industrial air conditioning unit. It uses very little freon to operate and cools the water to chill the air. They will need a vaccum of 10 Hg minimum.
However, maintenance depends on the the overall design. You would need a technician that is both deep water suba certified as well turbine certified. They will need to have NDI/NDT level II certification also. Good luck with that combo.
The OTEC project was done on a small scale first, powering a ship lights, and computers. | |
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| OTEC..... electricity from the ocean blue...........
Posted: 11/10/2009 8:30:04 AM | | When there is new technology that is developed and not being used, especially big projects, you can almost bet the farm that some environmentalist group is the stumbling block. Often financed by the "haves", to the detriment of the "have-nots". Yet, they recruit many a follower, usually when they are young, impressionable and idealistic. | |
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