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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 3:53:34 AM | http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32875308/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
RICHMOND, Va. - A Virginia judge on Wednesday set a Nov. 10 execution date for John Allen Muhammad, mastermind of the 2002 sniper attacks in the Washington, D.C., area that left 10 dead.
The attorney general's office last week requested that the execution be on Nov. 9, but Prince William County Circuit Judge Mary Grace O'Brien chose a day later. The date, which falls on a Tuesday, was picked so courts would be open the day before in case they have to take up last-minute appeals, said Jonathan Sheldon, Muhammad's attorney.
The date was picked during an early morning conference call with the judge, the attorney general's office and Sheldon.
Sheldon said Muhammad will appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court and ask Gov. Timothy M. Kaine for clemency.
Shooting spree
Muhammad was sentenced to death for the slaying of Dean Meyers, one of 10 people shot to death during a 2002 rampage that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area.
Muhammad and teenage accomplice Lee Boyd Malvo killed six people in Alabama and Louisiana before moving on to Maryland, D.C. and Virginia, where Meyers was shot at a Manassas gas station. Six others were wounded.
Malvo, who was born in Jamaica, is serving life in prison for the shooting spree.
Last month a federal appeals court rejected Muhammad's argument that prosecutors withheld critical evidence and that Muhammad never should have been allowed to act as his own attorney for a portion of his trial because he was too mentally impaired.
The attorney general's office said it was preparing a statement Wednesday.
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Lets have a death penalty discussion. I understand why we have appeals, but I think in certain cases it just takes too long. This was 7 years agao and he paralyzed a portion of our country. The system is inherently flawed through and through and I do not know if there any one solution. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:05:12 AM | | I can understand the concept of wanting to get it right before enacting an irreversible sentence but when there's no doubt as is the case with this scumbag going through the whole appeals process is just a waste of time. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:07:49 AM | | Personally I am anti-DP, but either way I am surprised it is happening this fast. In most or many states , that still have it, it takes 10, 15, even 20+ yrs. Did he perhaps "waive" any of his appeals, like Tim McVeigh did ? | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 7:27:48 AM | when it is a case like this, perhaps all appeals should be waived. It would end the drain of the taxpayers dollars.
There is no doubt about this guys guilt. Therefore, any appeal is moot. Would it "save his life"? Why bother? | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 9:50:15 AM | Looks like I was mistaken and he certainly did not waive them anyway. They must have just exhausted them faster than usual (not quite sure how that works exactly, must vary state to state).
I was following another heinous case in TN, where the alleged ringleader of the crimes was just sentenced to death, however they said afterwards that it will likely take over 20 yrs to actually implement it in TN.
In IL , the entire Death Row was cleared in 2002, or 03, by then -Governor Ryan, all of those sentences commuted to life, it added up to about 168 lives spared, I believe, and then the whole DP process was put on a moratorium where it still is now. So, although you can still technically be sentenced to it here (as I think about 9 or 10 offenders have been since then), you really aren't going to actually be executed unless or until they remove the moratorium. This occurred because of repeated cases with inaccuracies and injustices where too many men (mostly black men) had sat on Death Row until DNA evidence finally exonerated them and/or they were found to have been tortured into confessions by notorious (and I think now-indicted) former crooked Chicago cop Jon Burges and his crew. So that's part of what prompted the mass commutation and the moratorium here.
I think the last person we actually executed here was John Wayne Gacy.....who spent his last night pigging-out on fried chicken and ice cream and telling anyone who would listen that killing him wasn't going to bring anybody back and whose last words were "Kiss my as$". His execution was subsequently "botched" when the IV line clogged, the drapes had to be closed, and the whole thing started over. A researcher studying serial killers actually got custody of his brain afterwards, to examine it for physical abnormalities....she didn't find any....
Oh well, I guess the wheels of justice must just turn quicker in VA...I have read that Muhammad is trying to take this to the Supreme Court however. (Doubt he'll ever get there)... | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 10:42:32 AM |
Lets have a death penalty discussion.
Should the death penalty be banned as a form of punishment?
In a Nutshell
YES
*Financial costs to taxpayers of capital punishment is several times that of keeping someone in prison for life.
*It is barbaric and violates the "cruel and unusual" clause in the Bill of Rights.
*The endless appeals and required additional procedures clog our court system.
*We as a society have to move away from the "eye for an eye" revenge mentality if civilization is to advance.
*It sends the wrong message: why kill people who kill people to show killing is wrong.
*Life in prison is a worse punishment and a more effective deterrent.
*Other countries (especially in Europe) would have a more favorable image of America.
*Some jury members are reluctant to convict if it means putting someone to death.
*The prisoner's family must suffer from seeing their loved one put to death by the state, as well as going through the emotionally-draining appeals process.
*The possibility exists that innocent men and women may be put to death.
*Mentally ill patients may be put to death.
*It creates sympathy for the monstrous perpetrators of the crimes.
*It is useless in that it doesn't bring the victim back to life.
NO
*The death penalty gives closure to the victim's families who have suffered so much.
*It creates another form of crime deterrent.
*Justice is better served.
*Our justice system shows more sympathy for criminals than it does victims.
*It provides a deterrent for prisoners already serving a life sentence.
*DNA testing and other methods of modern crime scene science can now effectively eliminate almost all uncertainty as to a person's guilt or innocence.
*Prisoner parole or escapes can give criminals another chance to kill.
*It gives prosecutors another bargaining chip in the plea bargain process, which is essential in cutting costs in an overcrowded court system.
http://www.balancedpolitics.org/death_penalty.htm | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 2:30:49 PM | | They picked Virgina to try the case because they knew Virginia wouldn't sit around and not flip the switch. The guy was a domestic terrorist basically. What he did scared the crap out of a large population of people while he and his young accomplice were on the loose. I don't get all misty eyed when people like him aren't being treated with kid's gloves. He's guilty...period. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 3:12:04 PM | This is why we have to teach out police NOT to run around yelling, "Stop! Police! Drop it!", since NONE of this is required. Police already have the right and duty to stop someone who is in the process of committing a felony, without any warning or "breaks" whatsoever. As long as the culprit is holding a weapon, has committed a felony (not "allegedly", but in actuality because you just saw him do so with your own eyes) and if allowed to walk away, will likely commit it again, you shoot him. Period. No warning, no warning shots - that's a TV / movie myth. Think about it - when SWAT snipers take a guy out, you don't hear them yelling "Last Chance! Drop or I'll shoot you in the head, please!"...They aim, and shoot to stop. Stop dead.
We just need to teach our police to shoot to kill, if they're going to shoot at all...not just shoot to stop.
Maybe then we'd see fewer and fewer 7 year-long death sentences. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 3:21:47 PM | OP
With heinous crimes like that one, it generally makes folks think that the death penalty is necessary. But other cases are not as seemingly "black and white." The reason that Guv Ryan commuted so many cases in Illinois was because the system was flawed in "process" -- some cases of innocent people were uncovered, and that made the whole process tainted.
There's other evidence that supports the thesis that death by lethal injection is "cruel and unusual punishment," unconstitutional under the 8th Amendment.
Such is the case because lethal injection is a two step process. One injection causes the body to become anesthesized --unfeeling. The last injection actually does the real work of killing. In some cases, the first injection was not effective. In that case, killing a person through suffocation, constricting of the heart, etc., is one of the most painful deaths imaginable, according to experts in the medical field.
Some might argue that the executed individuals deserve that type of death. I won't debate that fact that they're entitled to their opinions.
In summary, the death penalty issue might gain support if folks could be assured that the "process" getting to condemning an individual to death was an effective/efficient process. As it stands, there seems to be some debate as to whether or not that is the case. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 4:26:28 PM |
This is why we have to teach out police NOT to run around yelling, "Stop! Police! Drop it!", since NONE of this is required. Police already have the right and duty to stop someone who is in the process of committing a felony, without any warning or "breaks" whatsoever. As long as the culprit is holding a weapon, has committed a felony (not "allegedly", but in actuality because you just saw him do so with your own eyes) and if allowed to walk away, will likely commit it again, you shoot him. Period. No warning, no warning shots - that's a TV / movie myth. Think about it - when SWAT snipers take a guy out, you don't hear them yelling "Last Chance! Drop or I'll shoot you in the head, please!"...They aim, and shoot to stop. Stop dead.
We just need to teach our police to shoot to kill, if they're going to shoot at all...not just shoot to stop
The police shoot to stop the threat, which means center mass. The verbal commands serve their own purpose. They can de-escalate a situation, and the general public is more in favor of them. If an officer is chasing down a criminal and shoots him then you'll see on the news later that night someone saying "The police just shot him. No warning or anything". Same situation, but add in verbal commands and it changes to "They warned him several times, but he kept____".
In my job just merely saying "Stop resisting" while twisting one up can change the outlook of the whole thing. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 4:30:50 PM |
In summary, the death penalty issue might gain support if folks could be assured that the "process" getting to condemning an individual to death was an effective/efficient process. As it stands, there seems to be some debate as to whether or not that is the case.
How has it not been effective? I haven't heard about anyone coming back to life after being put to death. As far as being more effiecient thats ways to do that, but they'd be frowned upon | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 4:50:29 PM |
when it is a case like this, perhaps all appeals should be waived. It would end the drain of the taxpayers dollars.
There is no doubt about this guys guilt. Therefore, any appeal is moot. Would it "save his life"? Why bother? Why? Because we don't discard rights as easily as some would hope. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:04:57 PM | "Financial costs to taxpayers of capital punishment is several times that of keeping someone in prison for life. "...wrong. At 69 cents a foot for a rope...it is far cheaper than the 60 thousand a year it costs to keep one prisoner behind bars.
"It is barbaric and violates the "cruel and unusual" clause in the Bill of Rights. " People running around murdering others in cold blood is barbaric. Stopping them from doing so is a public service. A quick death is not cruel in comparison to the deaths of their victims.
"The endless appeals and required additional procedures clog our court system." Yes...they do. But there are ways to "streamline" the process. Such as this case under discussion. No appeals for serving life instead. It is death....simple as that. Appeals over...off you go! Now....if there is SOME doubt....then he probably shouldn't be in prison anyways. Also, with DNA evidence, etc, far fewer "innocents" facing a death penalty exist now. I can see a "life sentence" being handed down in a case where there is diminished mental capacity or some such thing.
"We as a society have to move away from the "eye for an eye" revenge mentality if civilization is to advance. " Advance to what? A "sheeple" mentality where we MUST become victims first before defending ourselves? To be dumb enough to keep these killers alive and well, in conditions that exceed what the poorest people in our society deal with every day? Why? I say look after the poor better than the prisoners first.
"It sends the wrong message: why kill people who kill people to show killing is wrong." Because it is a deterrent IF used right. Scare the heck out of people by actually showing them that you die if you murder others in our society. Make it a "life learning experience " for young people. You honestly think someone is going to shoot up a neighbourhood in a drive-by if they know they will die themselves even IF they accidentally kill a 6 year old that was playing innocently in their own yard? I fail to see the "wrong" message here at all.
"Life in prison is a worse punishment and a more effective deterrent."...gee...three meals a day, good shelter, warm or air conditioned, cable tv, exercise rooms, free education, library, recreation facilities, a job, ....jeeze...living better than the working poor!!! This is supposed to be a deterrent? I think not! Some of these guys make it their life ambition to stay "institutionalized". They don't have to take responsibility for their families, or themselves. Always some telling them what they have to do, where to go, when to do it....a real system to live by.
"Other countries (especially in Europe) would have a more favorable image of America."...and some countries will be laughing up their sleeves at the "weak Americans". Especially in those countries where raw materials are being traded to America...like oil, gas, etc.
"Some jury members are reluctant to convict if it means putting someone to death." True.All they need to decide is IF the person did it or not. It is up to the court to decide on punishment. Not the jury. They can only "recommend" things.
"The possibility exists that innocent men and women may be put to death." Possible...but in this day and age of DNA, etc, that likelyhood is getting further and further away.
"The prisoner's family must suffer from seeing their loved one put to death by the state, as well as going through the emotionally-draining appeals process." How about the victims families? Why have those appeals IF the person is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt? They did it. The appeals are simply to fight for THEIR lives. If guilty, and a death sentence is handed down...then there really is no reason for an appeal. They killed, now they die. Their families can move on.
"Mentally ill patients may be put to death."..Point being? Perhaps those who ARE a danger to society need to be put away n a mental institution. Or perhaps they need medication daily, and would have to report daily to get it, or risk incarceration. If they can't tell the difference between right and wrong...then society needs to be protected from them.
"It creates sympathy for the monstrous perpetrators of the crimes"....from who? Misguided individuals that would be first on the bandwagon for a death sentence if it was one of their near and dear that was a victim!
"It is useless in that it doesn't bring the victim back to life."...no...it does not bring the victim back to life. But it also makes sure that the murderer will NEVER take another life. How many "gang slayings" have there been in prisons because of some lifer doing the deed, cause he has nothing to lose anyways? Perhaps someones son who was doing some time for a far less serious crime got killed. Someone nearing the end of their term even. Where is the "justice" there? Also, there is always the possibility of them being violent with guards. Or an escape.
We could go on and on about this. Bleeding heart liberals would trot out the same old scenarios that society has been working hard to eliminate (innocent being locked up, corrupt cops and courts, etc, etc.) Those who want it would be demanding it for ANY killing.
The Bible makes sure that we know what KIND of killing is allowed...and which are not. It has far more depth than "Thou shalt not kill." We all now that. But a soldier who does? How about defending your family? A cop who shoots someone? A homeowner? What kinds of killing are justified. The Bible points them out.
Some are sanctioned by God...others are not. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/4/2009 6:08:07 PM |
How has it not been effective? I haven't heard about anyone coming back to life after being put to death. As far as being more effiecient thats ways to do that, but they'd be frowned upon
Well, OK, let me try to show you what I mean by "effective" in terms of the PROCESS of being subjected to the death penalty.
The essential question before the courts is "Is the person guilty of committing this crime that is deemed to be punishable by being put to death?
If the person is, indeed, guilty, and the person is put to death, then the process is effective.
If the persons turns out to be NOT guilty and he gets put to death, then the process is NOT effective, is it? As I stated in the post that you got my quote from, there HAVE been cases where innocent people were put to death, because of the INEFFECTIVENESS of the PROCESS.
To the question of efficiency -- yes there's more efficient ways of killing, like a firing squad, but yeah, that would probably be frowned upon. OK, so we give them a lethal injection. It turns out that, in some cases, the person goes through more pain and suffering than if they WOULD HAVE been put in front of a firing squad. In my previous post, I explained how this could happen. Now, how is that efficiency in PROCESS???
As to your example about people coming back to life after being put to death -- well, I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion or question. I was talking about the PROCESS that an alleged perpetrator has to go through before being punished by imposing the death penalty. I don't know how you went from that to discussing dead people coming to life.
Maybe posting that comment on the "Jesus Arisen" thread? Maybe they can answer that question. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:24:42 AM | | I want to address the arguement about mentally ill people may be put to death. Someone who is truly mentally ill (Not Guilty by reason of Insanity) wouldnt be. Those who are NGI are housed in forensic mental health facilities (at least in FL, which has and uses capital punishment). Even though being found not guilty they can be held there indefinately due to them being a danger to themself or others if released. Some may be released to a civil facilty, fewer still may be released to their families. The facility I work at has someone who's been there almost as long as the place has been open, over 30 years. He killed his whole family one day, and is going to spend the rest of his life locked up even though he was found not guilty. The reason being is that he can't go anywhere else. They've tried taking him to a civil facility before, but it didn't work out. The point being is that if someone is truly mentally ill that they aren't going to be put to death. They may spend the rest of their life put away somewhere, but they aren't going to receive capital punishment | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/5/2009 7:42:41 AM |
Well, OK, let me try to show you what I mean by "effective" in terms of the PROCESS of being subjected to the death penalty.
The essential question before the courts is "Is the person guilty of committing this crime that is deemed to be punishable by being put to death?
If the person is, indeed, guilty, and the person is put to death, then the process is effective.
If the persons turns out to be NOT guilty and he gets put to death, then the process is NOT effective, is it? As I stated in the post that you got my quote from, there HAVE been cases where innocent people were put to death, because of the INEFFECTIVENESS of the PROCESS.
To the question of efficiency -- yes there's more efficient ways of killing, like a firing squad, but yeah, that would probably be frowned upon. OK, so we give them a lethal injection. It turns out that, in some cases, the person goes through more pain and suffering than if they WOULD HAVE been put in front of a firing squad. In my previous post, I explained how this could happen. Now, how is that efficiency in PROCESS???
As to your example about people coming back to life after being put to death -- well, I don't know how you arrived at your conclusion or question. I was talking about the PROCESS that an alleged perpetrator has to go through before being punished by imposing the death penalty. I don't know how you went from that to discussing dead people coming to life
I'm talking about following through on the death penalty itself. Not the process. As others have mentioned, todays forensic science is pretty good, and errors would be extremely rare. The way most states seem to use it, and IIRC its written into my states constitution there can't be any doubt. Receiving life in prison is a process as well. If someone is innocent how can you repay them if they've been locked up for decades when they didn't do anything? Same could be said about any crime. Do you think the person that ended up getting a misdemeanor charge and spending a few months in jail when they are innocent is not going to suffer for it?
As far as the person suffering, I really don't care. If they've committed a crime bad enough to be put to death then they should suffer. It would serve as a better deterrent. Heck, bring back public hangings.
No system is going to be perfect. We have guilty people set free because of the system, we have innocent people get sent to jail because of it. Overall though, the number of innocent people sent to jail/prison is small when compared to the number of people actually in jail/prison. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/5/2009 8:46:05 AM | "If someone is innocent how can you repay them if they've been locked up for decades when they didn't do anything?"...money seems to do quite well. Canada had a case where a guy was released because of DNA evidence proving he didn't do it. He'd served 14 years. The 10 million dollar pay-off certainly went a long ways towards "repaying" him. Most people are never going to make 10 million in their entire lives! I believe the guys name was "Milguard" (sp).
We currently have another case where the guy was found innocent after 10 years, again due to DNA evidence. The big difference here is he made a confession to it. Mentally ill at the time? Who knows? He won't be getting a dime (I hope).
Would you serve 10-15 years if there was a 10 million dollar pay-off at the end? Think if the lifestyle you could have! Full retirement by 30-35 years of age! Wow!
The death sentence is the cheapest form of punishment there is. The ONLY thing that keeps the price of it up is the appeals process. The more money poured into it, the longer the appeals process.
Perhaps, when a death sentence is handed down, ALL appeals would be "free of charge". This way the lawyers and judges who make their bread and butter off of it would speed the process up. Lawyers could be assigned each case, to work "pro-bono". In this manner all the appeals could well be moved forwards.
Would it mean that they wouldn't work as hard at it? I don't see why. Perhaps a small stipend for those who "win" their cases. Or a "scorecard" system, whereby those who do win get a "boost" in income on the kinds of cases they take on, or a better shot at a judges position. Or any other political seat!
As far as those who do get a needle, and the talk about how cruel and painful it is. Well...I have to agree. It is a horrible way to go. So...perhaps the best way to handle it would be to make them suffer the SAME deaths their victims suffered. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander! Did they torture someone to death, taking days for them to die? Then that's what they get too! Did they shoot someone killing them instantly? Then that's what they get.
Perhaps, for those who are a bit squeamish about such goings on, that too would be viewed as "cruel". Was it "cruel" to their victims? think about them for a inute.
Perhaps the manner of death should be left up to the victims families. Let them choose.
There is a humane and "civil" way to handle the whole manner. Make them into a "vegetable". Basically a lobotomy. Either chemically induced (application of drugs), or an operation. Then, the murderers would be docile, and no longer a harm to anyone. They could be released into the care of their families, rather than locking them up at great expense for years and years. Cheap, clean, justice is served and nobody else gets killed. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/5/2009 9:45:20 AM |
"If someone is innocent how can you repay them if they've been locked up for decades when they didn't do anything?"...money seems to do quite well. Canada had a case where a guy was released because of DNA evidence proving he didn't do it. He'd served 14 years. The 10 million dollar pay-off certainly went a long ways towards "repaying" him. Most people are never going to make 10 million in their entire lives! I believe the guys name was "Milguard" (sp).
I wouldn't sell 10 years of my life, sit behind bars in a prison environment, for 10 billion dollars. It's ludicrous, and rather heartless, to assume that any amount of money makes up for being wrongly convicted and then paid off for losing 14 years of your life. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/5/2009 11:48:08 AM |
Would you serve 10-15 years if there was a 10 million dollar pay-off at the end? Think if the lifestyle you could have! Full retirement by 30-35 years of age! Wow!
The death sentence is the cheapest form of punishment there is. The ONLY thing that keeps the price of it up is the appeals process. The more money poured into it, the longer the appeals process.
Perhaps, when a death sentence is handed down, ALL appeals would be "free of charge". This way the lawyers and judges who make their bread and butter off of it would speed the process up. Lawyers could be assigned each case, to work "pro-bono". In this manner all the appeals could well be moved forwards.
Would it mean that they wouldn't work as hard at it? I don't see why. Perhaps a small stipend for those who "win" their cases. Or a "scorecard" system, whereby those who do win get a "boost" in income on the kinds of cases they take on, or a better shot at a judges position. Or any other political seat!
Nope. I wouldn't give up 10-15 years of my life for that. Maybe I'm just biased because I work in the criminal justice system. As far as lawyers working pro-bono. I can't say that I agree with that. While most appeals are complete BS, if someone is truly innocent then the lawyers should work hard at proving it. Now if they did as you suggested and got something for winning then it could possibly work. I personally think there should be a limit on the appeals process, and if there's a ton of proof and crediable witnesses, then there shouldt be very little if, any delay in serving the sentence. A year tops. | |
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| One week from yesterday, the DC Sniper is to be executed.
Posted: 11/5/2009 12:06:19 PM | | well the way i see it is this, if u know that if u kill someone ( as in murder) the sentence will b the death penalty and still murder someone ,well it seems to me that u have chosen your own fate. iam sick of these murders getting treated like humans, i mean for god sakes they have killed ,raped and done other really bad stuff to people. i know i can sleep at night knowing them people no longer are living.for god sakes what about the people they killed, they dont get to live anymore, where is there 3meals a day, oh never mind u dont need to eat when u are dead. | |
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