| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:08:58 AM | Has anyone seen the comments of the Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in the national papers today?
He said that the birth rate in Europe is "dying" because people are too selfish to have children, preferring to spend their money on "consumerism and instant gratification".
It's not often I agree with religious leaders, but on this issue he has to be right doesn't he? I'm a man in his mid-30s and have no children. This is not through choice, but because I've never met a woman who seems to want to put having children as a priority over cars, houses, holidays etc. I have several friends and acquaintances of a similar age who are also childless. Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, people still produce children at a natural rate.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/05/birth-rate-chief-rabbi-sacks | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:15:52 AM | Well obviously I can only speak for myself, but I think I had children for selfish reasons!
It was just something I wanted to experience in my life.
But I've never really been materialistic, even when I was minted!
I think experiences are more valuable than possessions.
And although I suppose holidays are a type of experience, they don't really compare to having children..
So I disagree with the rabbit. | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:19:02 AM | | I have no children and its not because I'm selfish far from it. A lot of people who do have children can be more selfish than the ones that choose not to. Some people choose to have children out of need of wanting them not thinking of what they have to offer that child, can they afford them are they in a healthy relationship with a loving supportive partner. If some people's priority is the material things in life good on them for being honest and not bringing a child into that I would think that is pretty unselfish versus the ones that don't care or think about it. | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:39:00 AM | Some people can't have kids. Why should people be considered selfish for making a choice. Look at the amount of kids maltreated and born into poverty.
The girl downstairs from me has 6 and she's not yet 30, apart from claiming benefit she tops up her income dealing, I wonder if she should be commended as being selfless for having kids or selfish due to her lifestyle. | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:43:25 AM | | I think it is more selfish to keep on breeding, there are familys with 5/6/7 kids. We are continually being told that the world is over populated as it is, so why are people who choose not to add to this being selfish? | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:59:48 AM | I think it's one of those where there is no wrong or right answer. Some people are natural parents, others just have no maternal/paternal instincts at all. Of course, there'll be elements of selfishness in both sides of the argument too.
For me personally, even though my marriage ended badly, having children was the best thing I ever did and they're my crowning achievement. I know in myself that nothing I ever do personally or professionally will match that feeling I have for my kids. But then again, I don't begrudge anyone who wants to go out and succeed professionally or enjoy their life free of the responsibility of kids.
It is each persons right to seek out their own path in life (within the law of ocurse :P), and whether that involves them raising children or not is entirely up to them. | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:47:30 AM | I don't think not having children can be said to be any more or less selfish than having them.
What I will say though is that having the large families that Rabbi Sacks seems to feel it's our duty to have, is a bit irresponsible on a planet that is being choked to death by its already excessive human population. | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:55:45 AM | I dont think its selfish we all have the right to choose what we want for ourselves as adults and individuals, not wanting children to me is just as acceptable as those that wish to have them.
I dont want to get married does that make me selfish, not at all its a choice based on free will, and my decision which should be accepted and not reviled. I dont march about insisting others dont get married .
If we all made the same choices based on expectation how dull life would be.
Im off to practice making babies, is that selfish that my little soldiers will be wasted, when they could potentially make a baby?  | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 8:56:37 AM | I'm a man in his mid-30s and have no children. This is not through choice, but because I've never met a woman who seems to want to put having children as a priority over cars, houses, holidays etc. I have several friends and acquaintances of a similar age who are also childless. Meanwhile, in other parts of the world, people still produce children at a natural rate.
how pompous ,why should a women think having children is a priority , surely before anyone decides to have children they need to get a house ,and a car ,and be financially sound
people in other parts of the world who still produce children at the nateral rate are mostly the third world countries where poverty and ignorence are wide spread ,not many people in the western world ,want to have loads of children the more children you have the less you can give them unless you are one of these who is quite preapred to have children to get a council house ,them go on to have 4 or 5 and let the state keep you | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 9:41:17 AM |
how pompous
How insulting...I could insult you, but won't.
why should a women think having children is a priority
No idea...I personally think of no-one and nothing other than myself. I blame it on being one of Thatcher's "I'm alright Jack" generation.
surely before anyone decides to have children they need to get a house ,and a car ,and be financially sound
You're wrong on two levels. For a start, having children is a fundamental, natural occurrence. If those who are rich can have children as and when they see fit, so should poorer people. It's one of those basic principles that goes beyond the capitalist "haves and have nots" system. Secondly, there's no harm in getting a house/car etc before children, but many people in today's society want a bigger house/car, then a better house and car and so on... | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 9:48:29 AM | It's part of Orthodox Judaism to have large families. Hs comments are a religious point of view.
Contraception and the Talmud
Judaism has had a largely positive attitude to sex since God commanded his people to 'be fruitful and multiply' (Genesis I:28; 9:1). Christianity's suspicions of sex as an element of 'the fall' are absent.
The repeated command to have children looks like an order from God for the Jews not to use birth control, but early rabbis explained that this was a limited command, and that once a couple had produced a family of reasonable size (2 sons, or a son and a daughter, depending on which rabbi you follow) they were free to avoid having further children.
Whether abstinence or artificial contraception should be used was another problem for the early rabbis. The more orthodox taught that anything that involved wasting seed (i.e. where semen was prevented from fertilising an egg) was wrong.
A passage in the Talmud called "The Beraita of the Three Women" is the basis for much Jewish teaching on contraception.
It states that a woman may use a "moch" (a contraceptive device) in three circumstances where a pregnancy would cause harm:
the woman is underage
the woman is pregnant
the woman is still breast-feeding
Other Talmudic passages permit women to drink potions that make them infertile, and this doctrine is now used to permit the use of the birth control pill.
Full artice here http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/judaism/jewishethics/contraception.shtml | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 10:12:32 AM | Has anyone seen the comments of the Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks in the national papers today?
He said that the birth rate in Europe is "dying" because people are too selfish to have children
Selfish to whom?..
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 10:41:06 AM | For a start, having children is a fundamental, natural occurrence. If those who are rich can have children as and when they see fit, so should poorer people. It's one of those basic principles that goes beyond the capitalist "haves and have nots" system. Secondly, there's no harm in getting a house/car etc before children, but many people in today's society want a bigger house/car, then a better house and car and so on...
every women has the right to decide if she wants the perfectly natural occurence and if she does not want to in the western world she does not have to ,if anybody wants to followed the fundamental natural occurrence they are entittled to do so ,,depends what you mean by poorer people ,the single parent mothers with 5 or 6 kids on social she is right to have more and more so that the capitlist have and have notsand more likely,the Haves can keep them .nobody should look to the state to keep their children | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:19:02 AM | Who is more selfish, the person who doesn't have children because they don't think they'd make good parents or the person who goes ahead and has them anyway just because they want them? People don't tend to have children because they feel it's their duty to society - they have them because they want them. That, to me, is selfish.
Men can still decide not to have any and have the career, the car, the house, without anyone thinking any less of them. Women have a career and they're selfish. You may want to check the calender.
H.x | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 11:28:58 AM | | I came from a big family 7 and know how hard it is to look after them, I had one because I wanted just one, she wants to be able to become a dr and knows she cant have both and is more then happy to not have any.but that doesnt make her selfish anyway shes more a animal person which am pleased about | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 5:39:26 PM | | I had one, I didn't plan his arrival. I decided I wanted him once I knew. I devoted my life to him, he's nearly eighteen now, I'm young enough to have another if I want to, but I suddenly realised I have learnt to have more selfishness and would never have another child unless my world could revolve around them. It will never happen now and hence I choose not to have any more! | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 5:57:41 PM | | Absolutely no way! I think it is selfish to have children full stop, the world is overpopulated as it is, even with this dive in people having them, and I hate to think what it will be like when it increases by another 50% over the next 40 years. One of the best things we can do to cut emission is by no one having any kids for the next decade while we sort out what direction we are taking, but of course thats never going to happen. In poor countries especially in Africa, I think the average woman has 7 kids? Even though they can't afford to feed them. It's not right. | |
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se44es
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Joined: 9/29/2009
Msg: 19 | |
| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:15:56 PM | if all the clever,selfish,scared or whatever people decide not to have kids theres a chance the county could be populated with jeremy kyle type ****wits ,,,,,,,id better get a move on its my duty to england | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 6:18:15 PM | I have one, and I consider myself to be blessed. Life is changing, women were expected to have kids, now they have a choice, they have careers and rather than be provided for, they can earn it themselves.
People aren’t selfish, its their choice and population to say 30 years ago has massively grown. So if people choose not to have a family or just one, then thats their choice…I wouldn’t listen to any religious leader about the choices I decide to make in MY life. | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:30:38 PM |
Absolutely no way! I think it is selfish to have children full stop, the world is overpopulated as it is, even with this dive in people having them, and I hate to think what it will be like when it increases by another 50% over the next 40 years. One of the best things we can do to cut emission is by no one having any kids for the next decade while we sort out what direction we are taking,
Do yourself a favour and read your own silly statement once the beer/drugs or bitterness wears off.
I think the average woman has 7 kids? Even though they can't afford to feed them. It's not right.
And your verified scource for this information is? | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/6/2009 7:44:37 PM | | You only quoted part of what I said Nortyraskull, and anyway instead of imposing your opinion on what I said, prehaps you would like to actually make an effort to give your own opinion on the matter? Am sure you have all the answers to with being older and "wiser" | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/7/2009 1:13:52 AM | verified scource for this information is?
He said "I think", in case you missed that bit. Hardly an authoratitive statement requiring verification.
However, if you're actually interested and not just here to dismiss opinions without checking them out...
http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=sf&v=25
As a general rule of thumb, a birth rate of between 9 and 10 per 1,000 population sustained over a generation equates to an average of two children per mother and gives a stable population. As you can see from the table, there are many African countries with birth rates four or five times higher than that. If you take infant mortality and life expectancy into account, the 7 children per mother figure that you sneered at is pretty accurate. | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/7/2009 1:21:47 AM |
The number of Down's syndrome pregnancies in England and Wales has risen sharply in the last twenty years, as mothers choose to wait until later life to start a family.
But scientists found fewer babies are born with the condition as more women opt to abort the pregnancy.
(My emphasis)
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8327269.stm and
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8327228.stm
Why are more women waiting until their late thirties to have children? Are they enjoying their single- or double-income-no-kids lifestyles too much to think about the consequences?
Anecdotal evidence: I work with several young single mums who absolutely revel in the weekends their child is with the non-resident parent because it means they "can have a night out on the piss like they used to". Are they implying that they would prefer to be without their child?
How many older parents on here have expressed the delight they have in the fact their children have now flown the nest and they can now enjoy themselves? Did they really regret having their children as much as that implies?
On the other hand, reported in July:
Women are having more children than at any time since the 1970s, with almost one in four born to foreign mothers
Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2281883/Women-having-more-children-than-at-any-point-since-1970s.html
So there are more women having children - what figures did Rabbi Sachs base his comments on?
It wouldn't have been this that spurred him to comment, would it?
The number of babies born to British mothers is also increasing, but lags far behind immigrants at an average of 1.7 children each. [...] On average, foreign women have 2.5 children each, rising to almost five for those from Pakistan [...]
Source: ibid
Maybe I'm a cynic... But religious leaders' pontifications (or does that word apply only to RCs?) always make me wonder about their motives.
I do think we are on the whole a more selfish society, with our personal rights to a pleasurable life more important to us than the good of society or even our community, and I believe that to be the Thatcher legacy, but I also believe the Rabbi has probably gone a little too far in his generalisations - look at all the young women who believe parenthood is the best thing to define their life so start early and intend to continue family traditions! | |
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| People are too selfish to become parents....
Posted: 11/7/2009 1:45:55 AM |
He said that the birth rate in Europe is "dying" because people are too selfish to have children, preferring to spend their money on "consumerism and instant gratification".
Did he base this statement on factual evidence and genuine birth rates ??
Even if there were truth in what he was saying, what the hell is he doing imposing his own religion and beliefs onto those who believe in freedom of choice ??
I am not of Jewish religion therefore it is not my commandment to marry and have children.
However I do agree with with it in part where the 'waste of seed' is forbidden ..............any swallowers in da house ????
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