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 Author Thread: Government vs Science?
 scorpiomover

Joined: 4/19/2007
Msg: 1
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Government vs Science?
Posted: 11/7/2009 5:23:41 PM
1) The ex-head of the UK government's scientific advisory body on drugs, Professor David Nutt, said that cannabis was safer than smoking, and ecstasy was safer than horseriding. Statistically, that's true.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7876425.stm

But the government sacked him for coming out against drugs, saying that Professor Nutt was not considering all the issues with drugs.
Here is just one article, but there are plenty more online:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8334774.stm

Was Professor Nutt right? Or was the UK government right for sacking him?

2) Now, scientists are calling for the UK government to reassure them that their views will be respected, no matter what.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8345823.stm

Do you agree that scientist's views should always be respected, or do you think that scientists must respect that their advice and public statements as government advisors must be in line with government views?
 gadgetdoc

Joined: 6/24/2006
Msg: 2
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Government vs Science?
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:08:37 PM
Professor Nutt, first I see a lot of irony in that name. Jokes aside, the one thing I remember in my first Statistics class was that you have lies, lies, more lies, and statistics. Meaning you can make the numbers say anything you want. Bluesman, and I went round and round on the dangers of Cannabis. So I expect him to appear here. The good Professor is dismissing all the other scholorly work, out of hand. Now MDMA, or ecstasy the jury is out. However, it reported that it is very dangerous, when involved in long term abuse. Cases of Bi-polar disorder, and clinical depression have been attributed to this drug. Which I find a bit ironic because it was orginally developed for the treatment of depressive individuals.

So was the Government right in sacking him. Yes when he is giving contrary and destructive advice. When he is not following good research methods, and the scientific approach. And when he is openly questioning the Stated policy of the Government in Public yes. For those that are politically astute will know those things are left for closed door sessions where you try and change the decision makers mind. In your case PM Brown.

A scientist is a human and can get it wrong. Heck Darwin got a Geology question wrong, and later had to admit so. So in short you can respect an opinion without agreeing with it. Futhermore, I would say that it counter to the scientific method to just respect and or agree with an opinion because of who said it. Science is question and tested all the time, otherwise it becomes religion. So no you don't have to respect what a scientist says because of his occupation. There are quacks and crack-pots out there too, you know the Jesus rode a dinosaur crowd.
 stargazer1000

Joined: 1/16/2008
Msg: 3
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Government vs Science?
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:27:05 PM
This is not "government vs. science." That was the Inquisition. I guess the question I would have is whether or not the good professor was attempting to provide sound information regarding the relative dangers of recreational drug use or whether it was one scientist attempting to influence policy for his own purpose.
 quietjohn2

Joined: 12/6/2004
Msg: 4
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Government vs Science?
Posted: 11/7/2009 10:31:19 PM

Do you agree that scientist's views should always be respected, or do you think that scientists must respect that their advice and public statements as government advisors must be in line with government views?
Well, the first obvious point is that a government that wants advisors to be 'in line with government views' clearly doesn't need advisors. It needs puppets.

The more sinister side of this is exactly what Professor Nutt said and how what he said was distorted and manipulated by those who wanted to silence a voice of reason or merely create a sensational story to boost their audience. The current debate isn't about what Prof Nutt was trying to communicate.


But the government sacked him for coming out against drugs
Not sure what this means, but Nutt has certainly come out against drugs in all of his recent articles that I found. That means that he thinks they should be controlled and people should be discouraged from using them irresponsibly. The overall point that Nutt is trying to make is that the government should be putting efforts into saving life and limb based upon rational, scientific evaluation of risk rather than some ill-defined, feel-good, guesses designed to earn votes and campaign contributions. In another article, (http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/20/3/315) he points out that ecstacy (and horseriding) pale into insignificance against the huge lethal and social cost of alcohol and criticizes the more liberal licensing laws and lack of any education related to alcohol consumption and its excesses. Probably the real reason that he was fired was because he didn't shy away from criticizing the lawmakers he is attempting to advise.

The full article written by Nutt on the horseriding comparison is at http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/20/3/315. It is a scholarly article in a scientific (psychological) journal considering the 'psychology' of attitudes towards drugs versus other potentially dangerous / lethal recreations. It is interesting to note that a majority of those (mis)reporting the article failed to provide a citation so readers / listeners could check the story themselves.

Nutt introduces his comparison by stating:
....the arguments about relative drug harms are occurring in an arcane manner, at times taking a quasi-religious character reminiscent of medieval debates about angels and the heads of pins!
The reasons for this are multiple and complex, but one major element is that the drug debate takes place without reference to other causes of harm in society, which tends to give drugs a different, more worrying, status. In this article, I share experience of another harmful addiction I have called equasy to illustrate an approach that might lead to a more rational and broad-based assessment of relative drug harms.
Nutt defined equasy as an addiction to horseriding which apparently causes over 11,000 head injuries per year in the US.
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