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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:16:35 PM | I am asking for some opinions and advise. Please think about what you say, I am considering showing this thread to the person i am concerned about. I feel like I have said all I can say and thought maybe some others who have been through this type of abuse can shine some light on the whys and hows she tolerates it and how she could make a move to leave it behind.
This is not me or my story, I am not in a relationship and was not abused in my marriage or any relationship. I cannot relate at all except to think hell no but i know it goes further than that for some people.
My best friend of 30 years is in what I think is an abusive relationship (20years married). The abuse comes in the form of controlling behavior, cutting remarks, major silent treatments (for weeks at a time).
I will give you an example of what happened today, which is representative of how it goes all the time.
He got mad at her because she gently challenged him and asked him to let something go related to pinning their 18 yr old daughter down to an exact time to be home.
(the girl is very responsible, obedient, and would not exceed whatever curfew they set but she could not tell him exactly what time she would be home, only that she would come home as soon as done with her date and not to exceed the standard curfew in place). so my friend asked her husband to just let it go, give her a break.
He immediately goes into the silent treatment. He is in the kitchen cooking (he loves to cook and thinks he cooks better than anyone else) and loves to cook on weekends.
Hours later, my friend goes into the kitchen, which is cleaned up and looks in the fridge to eat some of the food he had cooked but could not find it. she asked him what happened to the food and he told her he gave it to the dogs, because they were more deserving than her. And he had. Two days worth of food.
Please provide some ways of illuminating to her what is going on here. Maybe people who have experienced this can explain to her how degrading this is.
I have suggested counseling, self help books, etc. but she seems immobilized and stuck in this dynamic. and years of talking about this with her to no avail.
kaylee | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:22:38 PM | Oh wow....what an ***hole and I mean that sincerely.
Your friend is living what she is comfortable living in.....I wouldn't live like that but there are some people that will tolerate such treatment for many reasons. If she is not unhappy, there is nothing you can do. If she cannot see the abusive nature of the relationship, she will never accept that she is being abused. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:30:13 PM |
she gently challenged him passively nagged you mean?
I have suggested counseling, self help books, etc. but she seems immobilized and stuck in this dynamic. and years of talking about this with her to no avail. Ok so butt out now and mind your own business. She's been with him for 20 years; I doubt she's innocent. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:32:49 PM | HAving just come from that sort of marriage myself, the only thing I can say is that you can't help her if she doesn't want the help. Some women like the controling guys (I don't but I put up with it because at the time I thought it could be fixed), and some women who are emotionally abused make excuses for the abuser or simply believe what they're told about not deserving etc.
My parents have a family friend whos daughter is in that sort of marriage. When she cooks a meal, the husband takes what he wants first, and what is left is split among the wife and children. The poor woman is skin and bones, and STARVING but she's sticking with him.
Hopefully your friend - as well as my parents friend - will open their eyes to what is happening and get the help they need. Until then all you can do is be a shoulder to cry on. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:35:30 PM | Wow. That's certainly an episode that I would see as typical of emotional abuse. Without knowing more it's a BIT risky to generalize, but if this IS the kind of thing he regularly does HE IS ABUSIVE towards her. It's extremely unlikely that you are going to be able to convince her to leave her husband. What SHE needs is to be able to see her relationship for what it is and THEN DECIDE, for herself, whether she's prepared to spend the rest of her life IN an abusive relationship. But degrading/ humiliating your partner in this way is certainly easily spotted as abusing her (or him), as is "the silent treatment."
Both humiliation and the silent treatment are listed among OBVIOUS manifestations of abuse on like the third page of a book I would like to recommend to you and your friend, 'The Emotionally Abusive Relationship,' by Beverly Engel. It was kind of a bible to me when I was coming out of my marriage to an emotional abuser, for the chief thing it did for me was help me REALLY to understand the dynamic of my relationship. Once I truly GRASPED what was happening, being IN the relationship as it was just was no longer an option. Like me, I'm sure that there are behaviors that your friend KNOWS are abusive; like me she might also be shocked at the things that she's learned to think of as just "normal"--but which are really the most insidious forms of abuse of all--because once you LEARN to tolerate constant attacks on your character as normal, you are on the slippery slope of the kind of self-doubt that makes it EXTREMELY difficult to get OUT.
I know you have recommended self-help books and maybe even included this one, but nevertheless I SERIOUSLY recommend it and hope the best for your friend. If she won't read it she won't, and ultimately there's nothing you can do. However much you care for her it's REALLY up to her. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:36:14 PM |
I have suggested counseling, self help books,
You did your bit to help her and she didn't budge...what is she waiting for, for this man to kill her????
Kaylee, there is no need to protect nor butter your friend's a** just to make her feel better about her abusive situation. She has choices to either stand up to her husband, seek counselling, or leave him. No ONE should tolerate abuse of any form. Don't sacrifice her safety for an unhealthy environment. Making excuses SUCKS!
My mother would have been alive today if she did the right thing and left my father. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:40:36 PM | | wow he's rude, I know forgiving is a virtue but that guy needs councilling, giving the cooked food to the dog and not the family is terrible. Maybe she should consider getting councilling with him or decide to separate | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:41:22 PM | | It's what she wants....There comes a point in our lives when we decide how we want to conduct ourselves in society...and there comes a point when we know right from wrong....her wanting to stay in a marriage as she is ...can only be determined that it is what she wants and desires...with perhaps little disregard for her childrens welfare, or the values they so openly teach them...so the outcome of how the children will come out in life will decide on 2 things....the messed up life the parents taught them...or...coming to a point in life when they are logical to decide how they want to carry on in life and society as adults.... Counceling is usually for people who want to stay in the same situation they are in life...but..it's their excuse to remain there, by claiming they had counceling. she has no right to try to force her husband to be anyone but who he is....if she cannot accept the abuse...then she would have left him long ago....there isnt an excuse in the world...for allowing that to go on for years...and any women..who accepts it...and invites it...deserves everything that comes along with it....and has absolutly no right at all to complain about it... | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:46:23 PM | Would like to hear his side.
When I hear 'gently challenged' I see the word challenged. Its a loaded word that can mean talking down to him. Someone who 'gently challenges' someone in one area usually is doing it in other areas. The one who cooks gets to decide who gets the food. She should have gotten the message when she saw the food he cooked wasn't in the refrigerator, and made something for herself.
And what kind of respect is she showing him by not being on the same page with him when it comes to the 18 year old daughter. Even as an adult, when we visited our parents, their home rules were what we lived by when there. If we disagreed, we could get a hotel room. If the 18 year old wants to live as she wants, she should move out and get her own place.
~Beth~
If she has lived with him over twenty years, she knows the game. She can leave if she doesn't like how things are. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:53:45 PM | With due respect, ZenBeth, if you think that his reaction to this disagreement (as described) was anything close to reasonable, then I'm really shocked by that.
Married couples disagree, and sometimes they disagree over important things. THAT isn't something that should result in "silent treatments" and extremely degrading behavior. We don't have his side of the story--and in these threads we NEVER do. Thus, the best thing we can do is respond to what we're told.
Your are pretty close, here, to valorizing a "king of his castle" situation where the wife's job is to silently agree with whatever the man says....and if she speaks up she's inviting abuse. The very situation being described here, when it comes to the girl's curfew, is unreasonable--underlining what's been said about this man's controlling behavior. We don't KNOW it's true, but if it's the OP's plan to show her friend this thread then I can't see how she would benefit from making things up. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:54:44 PM | He is a real piece of work. You have tried talking to your friend. You have known her all her adult life and still your advice and impressions of their relationship have done no good as far as opening her eyes to the extent of the abuse she is allowing to occur. I doubt that reading what strangers, on a dating site forum, think is going to make much of an impact.
I WAS in a similar marriage and it was hell. I came home from work one day and our dog, who I adored, was gone. I asked where the dog was and he responded that he had taken her to the Humane Society because the dog loved me more than she love him and he didn't like that. He didn't take her to the local shelter, but to one in another part of Los Angeles, so I couldn't find her and retrieve her. I was heartsick over losing a beloved companion and by him being so callous and cruel. He was also into physical abuse as well as verbal and emotional abuse. I was not allowed to sleep in the bed unless he allowed it. He threatened the lives of my son and my best friends, as well as my life. Finally it got so bad that I told him that I would rather be dead than be with him any longer, and if he was going to kill me to do so because it would be a relief to be away from him, even if it meant dying. No one should live that way. No one should allow another person to make them feel less than they are or to treat them cruelly.
The only thing I can think of that may get through to your friend is telling her that she is showing her daughter that being mistreated by a man is okay. She is training her daughter to put up with the same abuse she has suffered through these past 20 years. Does she really want that future for her child?? If she won't leave for herself, she needs to for her daughter. She needs to stand up for herself and show her child that it is NOT okay to be mistreated. That is not what a marriage should be nor how a loving husband treats his wife.
This man is sick and she needs to get as far away from the S.O.B. as possible. What kind of man would treat his wife in such a manner? It is unfathomable. And for her to allow it and continue living with this abuse shows what little self-esteem she has. Perhaps, if you both have other mutual girl friends, you can get them all together and have an intervention of sorts. Each of you write what you want to say to her and read it one at a time and see if that doesn't jolt her into action. Tell her how much she means to each of you and that you cannot stand seeing her demeaned and abused in such ways. Let her know you will all be there for her should she finally decide she has had enough. If possible, bring a counselor with you to the intervention and be sure you have given the counselor a fair and full description of the relationship. A professional may be able to convince her that she not only doesn't deserve to be treated in such a terrible manner but that she can actually do something about the situation. She doesn't have to just 'take it'.
Good luck! Please keep us informed as to how she fares in this situation. I wish her the very best.
Shelley | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 7:58:30 PM | Well, I know before I open my big mouth that I'm going to get blasted to Kingdom Come for this....but you should BUTT OUT. The reality of her situation is....that it's NO SECRET to her. (you only think she doesn't understand)
I've always said, that people who put up this this kind of treatment....ENJOY IT. Ok...I know, yes...TRUE, no one enjoys being treated badly.....BUT....look at how your friend handles it. She DOESN'T change it....she merely complains about it...to you. She may NOT like the emotional abuse....but she's willing to tolerate it....because of the SYMPATHY she gets because of it. What you are essentially doing is....ENABLING her. IF you are really interestrrd in helping a friend...STOP being "sympathetic". INSTEAD...LAUGH with her about his behavior. She's obviously accepted it. When she relates these incidents....LAUGH and say..."what an ***hole!" How dooooo you put up with him....he must be hung like a horse!!!"
Like my daughter says...."until the pain to remain the same is greater than the pain to CHANGE...things NEVER change." Offering sympathy does nothing but HELP HER REMAIN THE SAME. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:00:13 PM | OP, you can't help her out if she isn't ready for that help. Give her the phone numbers for people who deal with women leaving abusive relationships, provide her what she needs to make those steps when she's ready, suggest counseling, let her know that if she's ready to get the help she needs, that you're there for her however you can, in an instant.
Beyond that, there is nothing you can do. What you describe is unquestioningly abusive, but if your friend doesn't want out, then she won't leave. She has to be ready to go.
Also keep in mind: When she is ready to leave, this man may become a physical danger to her as he realizes he has lost his hold on her. Once she's ready to go, she needs to treat him as a danger and take serious steps to protect herself from him. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:16:21 PM | | honestly, there is nothing anybody, well i could really tell her, because she will not listen to her friend of 30 yrs, so i know she will not really listen t o anybody. Honestly, I think you stated your case to your friend, and I know you care and you are concerned, but i say butt out of their marriage, just be there for her, that's what i would do. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:23:42 PM | [I doubt she's innocent.]
I do think that's unfair. It has nothing to do with innocence. More likely, it has to do with self esteem. In any case, we all put up with shit (or stand alone), just different shit. When she is no longer willing to put up with whatever it is that he is throwing at her, she will leave. Assuming you are a good friend, all you can do is be there for her.When, one day, her children have their independence, and let her know how much they detest their dad, she may open her eyes and/or realize that she deserves better. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:23:54 PM | The guy sounds like a real AHole. But the women is foolish enough to to put up with it. I think until she doesnt want that sort of life or treatment she will just put up with it.
She has got to want better treatment for herself and not put up with the BShi* otherwise you can talk yourself blue in the face, nothing will happen.
It seems for what ever reason she is allowing it to happen.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make the horse drink | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:25:35 PM |
a bit nomadic wrote:With due respect, ZenBeth, if you think that his reaction to this disagreement (as described) was anything close to reasonable, then I'm really shocked by that..................Married couples disagree, and sometimes they disagree over important things. THAT isn't something that should result in "silent treatments" and extremely degrading behavior. We don't have his side of the story--and in these threads we NEVER do. Thus, the best thing we can do is respond to what we're told.
.................Your are pretty close, here, to valorizing a "king of his castle" situation where the wife's job is to silently agree with whatever the man says....and if she speaks up she's inviting abuse. The very situation being described here, when it comes to the girl's curfew, is unreasonable--underlining what's been said about this man's controlling behavior. We don't KNOW it's true, but if it's the OP's plan to show her friend this thread then I can't see how she would benefit from making things up.
First off we do not have the mans side of the story.
Have never been divorced so all I know is from being married 38 years to a wonderful man who gave me some great debates, and yes, would become quiet while we both digested what we had discussed. Many a smart person will stay quiet and not say anything.
Some of us like time to cool off, digest what's been said, even if it means not talking all day. And how do we know this woman isn't the type who simply cannot shut up, but has to follow hm around like a duck pecking at his heels while dissing him in front of the daughter or even friends?
And do we know what the ground rules are in the home in regard to the adult daughter who is 18? And from reading the OP comments I got the idea that instead of discussing curfew issues when things are calm, it may have been brought up as the young woman was about to plan for going out. To me this is akin to fools who broach poor sex, during sex.
~Beth~ | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:39:53 PM | Well, Zenbeth, we are coming from very different places, obviously, with different marital experiences. When I read that one story it was very familiar--and I have no difficulty empathizing with the woman in the story, as it it was told (which is all we have). I've never had my dinner fed to dogs, but I have had it thrown into the garbage (or across the room) because of a minor disagreement.... and that was a pretty minor manifestation of the larger problem when you are living with someone who sees any lack of conformity to "his way" as a major, personal attack, demanding an angry and SYMBOLIC (of your own awfulness) response. It's a "type" and I recognize it, and to me it isn't even remotely unlikely that it happened...and happens in tons of households every damn day.
She did tell us the ground rules, as such. The daughter has a curfew, but as the story reads the father apparently wanted to know EXACTLY when she'd be home, WITHIN that curfew (there wasn't a question of violating it). For an eighteen year old, who we are told doesn't have a history of curfew violation, that's (I would think to most) pretty rigid. The wife spoke up for leniency...and for that her dinner is given to dogs because they are more worthy than her? Again, IF that's the story then it's NOT normal and it IS abusive.
We were given a scenario and asked to speak to whether IT (the scenario) describes an abusive personality. My answer is YES. It's obvious that the REAL answer is something that only the wife, who lives with this man day in and day out, can provide--and even the OP has only heard what happened second hand. But there is no way that the STORY describes anything but an extremely typical episode of emotional abuse.
Even if the story isn't wholly true in its exact details, it's surely useful for the purpose of discussion, and it's always good to give people the opportunity to recognize abusive behaviors, IMO. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:44:50 PM | thank you to those who posted responses and offered opinions. some of the responses ......well, we get the good, bad, and ugly on here, eh?
i realize that i cannot make her see, nor can anyone else, but sometimes the right word, the right account, the right advise, at the right time can really impact a person. that was my purpose in posting. so i will show her the replies and let her glean what she can or will.
thank you
kaylee | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:46:13 PM | "gently challenged" = Is this man the father of the 18 year old daughter? If so, can he not expect to know a time for his daughter being home? Sounds like there is an incomplete picture being painted here. Have they always had conflict in raising their children. I see a brick wall/jelly fish that maybe happening.
If father cooks meals for TWO days, (why does it matter if he thinks he is a better cook than anyone else? Hell, he is in the kitchen cooking meals for two days.) Why did mom not eat at meal time?
It may be abuse, but who can tell, you are obviously not looking at all sides. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:49:13 PM | I have absolutely no idea why women tolerate this kind of behaviour and lord knows I couldn't figure it out of my own daughter because she's always proven to be such an incredibly strong individual in so many other ways. Since she's been out of her own emotional abuse situation for a couple of years, we've discussed it and she can't come to grips with it herself as to why she stuck it out the way she did. Believe me, it has nothing to do with getting sympathy because you don't hear even half the crap they put up with that they don't tell you about - usually it's the lesser of the most humiliating things.
It's most definitely true that you can't "make" a person leave or seak help unless they, themselves, are finally willing to. Having said that, however, I don't believe either in the total butting out attitude that others have. I'm not saying that you should constantly be in her face. I'm saying that when she comes to you and tells you these things, she's telling them to you because she's having an internal war with herself and actually wants to hear that she should leave, knows she should leave and/or seek professional help, but that twisted, brow beaten portion of her that has become such a familiarity that she's developed coping skills for makes that war within herself more difficult to win than it would be for any one of us who haven't allowed ourselves to be in it for years. When she tells you of the incidents, be that ear that she needs, and simply say that you agree that it's awful treatment and that when she's ready to do something about it, you'll be there as her friend to assist her in any way that you can. It's frustrating as the friend to hear of the emotional/mental abuse and see her do nothing about it, but allowing her to speak out loud about it may help in the end with that war going on inside her head. Postive reinforcement that you have her back and will be there when she's ready is far better than closing your ears and telling her you don't want to hear about it any more.
Depending on your depth of friendship and your desire to help her and for you, yourself, to understand this, you could go on your own to a workshop that will teach you how to more effectively help your friend directly from people who have experience dealing with the dilema you're faced with. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:52:41 PM |
i realize that i cannot make her see, nor can anyone else, but sometimes the right word, the right account, the right advise, at the right time can really impact a person. that was my purpose in posting. so i will show her the replies and let her glean what she can or will.
Send her to the sociopath thread. Not saying buddy is necessarily a sociopath, but it sounds like some of his behaviour may be similar. It probably won't cause an epiphany, but it'll be something for her to chew on. | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:56:59 PM |
Please provide some ways of illuminating to her what is going on here. Maybe people who have experienced this can explain to her how degrading this is.
Ask her:
"By example, what are you teaching your daughter about what is acceptable behavior to expect from a man/husband in her life?"
just a thought | |
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| seriously need some help on helping my friend of 30 years
Posted: 11/7/2009 8:58:15 PM | | as far as wanting to hear the mans side of the story zen...ok, I'm sure he has one too....but to do what he did with the food? and to make a remark like he did??? no...he's acted like a jerk...but he's her jerk so maybe you should not but in...look, supposed she did the self help thing...listened to a bunch of strangers on here and decided to leave him...then shes out in a crappy world with nobody, you've gone home to your guy, we've turned our computers off for the night...and she's sitting there alone wondering what to do next....he might be good in many other ways....only she can make that call....shhh, stay outta it! | |
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