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 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 1
Taken in Hand/Head of HouseholdPage 1 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I've been very curious about the lifestyle of a "Taken in Hand" & Head of Household" type of relationship. I understand the basic dynamics of this type of relationship to include elements of a Dominant/Submissive relationship with Discipline. However, I wonder if you can have that type of relationship without the domestic discipline??? I find it quite difficult to swallow the idea that the man that is supposed to love, cherish and adore me will discipline me. I'm all for a dominant/alpha male to put me in my place, however, I fear if harsh discipline is involved, my love for him will fade over time. Also, how does one find other like minded people seeking the same? How do you start this type of relationship? I welcome input from both men and women. Thank you for your anticipated respectful responses.
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 2
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 1:28:35 AM
Dear George242,

I do not wish for ANY man to beat me or humiliate me. Nor do I want to participate in a swingers club. I like certain elements of "Taken in Hand/Head of Household" where the man is expected to be the leader in the relationship which is embraced in the "Taken in Hand/Head of Household" relationships. I do appreciate your feedback.
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 3
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 1:31:02 AM
Ms Rococco,

Where are these men???

It's very rare that I meet a man that embraces his natural masculine traits :(
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 4
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 1:36:13 AM
Ms Rococco,

I appreciate your positive response.

Thank you
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 5
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 1:45:07 AM
Ms. Rococo,

I agree with you, it seems in today's society, we are plagued with emaculating men. I don't believe that is the right approach at all. I feel that in the battle of equality, we have forgotten to celebrate and embrace the differences between a man and woman. I've had a glimpse of this type of relationship and I won't settle for anything less. Thanks again for your candid and respectful responses.
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 6
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 1:48:33 AM
*emasculating

ooops
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 7
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 1:59:31 AM
Ms Rococo,

I can't imagine why this would generate much hostility. All I'm really saying is allow men to be men; Celebrate and embrace the differences between men and women. We can still have equality and have men embrace their masculinity. I've waited all my life for a man like this. I too, find it hard to wait especially since they're far and few between :(
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 8
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 2:17:56 AM
Well said, Ms. Rococco!!!

Dulce Suenos
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 9
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 8:45:59 AM

There is a tremendous amount of hatred towards men now.


Now *there's* a comforting thought! All sorts of women hate men, and yet we're expected to pursue them.
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 10
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 1:40:59 PM
Hey match

"There is a tremendous amount of hatred towards men now."

Very true.......... If asked, I always tell women that my favorite TV show is Two and a Half Men....... Then if eyebrows get raised, or comments on how that show is so anti-woman, Charlie is a pig...... I know it is time to move on. The problem is that a lot of people don't get it...... it is just comedy, and anybody that takes themselves too seriously is a problem waiting to happen......... Avoid it from the start.

Or better yet, if I meet a lady on line, usually they want to talk on line for weeks..... After about a week, I will email them Kates final soliliquiy from Shakespeare's Taming of the shrew. I've only had two ladies understand what it means................

Paul K
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 11
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 3:04:10 PM
Paul K,

Are you referring to this?

A woman mov’d is like a fountain troubled,
Muddy, ill-seeming, thick, bereft of beauty,
And while it is so, none so dry or thirsty
Will deign to sip, or touch one drop of it.
Thy husband is thy lord, thy life, thy keeper,
Thy head, thy sovereign, one that cares for thee,
And for thy maintenance; commits his body
To painful labor, both by sea and land;
To watch the night in storms, the day in cold,
Whilst thou li’st warm at home, secure and safe;
And craves no other tribute at thy hands
But love, fair looks, and true obedience -
Too little payment for so great a debt.
Such duty as the subject owes the prince,
Even such a woman oweth to her husband;
And wen she is froward, peevish, sullen, sour,
And not obedient to his honest will,
What is she but a foul contending rebel,
And graceless traitor to her loving lord?
I asham’d that women are so simple
‘To offer war where they should kneel for peace,
Or seek for rule, supremacy, and sway,
When they are bound to serve, love, and obey.
Why are our bodies soft, and weak, and smooth,
Unapt to toil and trouble in the world,
But that our soft conditions, and our hearts,
Should well agree with our external parts?

~ Kate in Act V, Scene ii of Shakespeare’s The Taming of the Shrew
(which was posted on Ms. Roccoco's profile)
 Paul K
Joined: 3/10/2006
Msg: 12
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History
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 3:22:31 PM
Yep. The important aspect of that speach is not what is written, but what is implied, what is not written. Most people have no idea that is the case, however, and read it and take it for face value, and that is when it gets interesting.............


Paul K

What is your take on it?
 A. Plot
Joined: 7/8/2008
Msg: 13
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 4:43:03 PM
ah...where have I seen this before? My lady understands what this means, if she really is still my lady...
 gentlebear22
Joined: 8/30/2006
Msg: 14
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/15/2010 10:49:13 PM
There is an group I heard of called The Threshold in Los Angeles that is in to that sort of thing.
 ZenBeth
Joined: 2/23/2009
Msg: 15
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 1:27:26 AM
Have to be honest and note that I so dislike metrosexual men, and was blessed to having had a manly man as a husband. And would love to find another one. Its cruel in my opinion the way some feminists have feminized men, and then these same women **** that there are no strong men around. I remember after Ron died and I was at the store shopping and a couple was headed to the check out stand and the husband noted he wanted some chips because there was a football game on later that day. The wife in a voice loud enough to be heard three check out stands away, told him he didn't need chips and to get in line. Well....I figured since she had been so loud and I was a wild west woman (laughing) that I damn well better speak up. So I did. I told her my husband died the day after Super Bowl Sunday and I wish to God he were alive, because he could gets any damn snack he wanted for when he watched the damn game. Am happy to note that other shoppers actually cheered. The guy got his chips.

Bear in mind I had a great Dad, who by how he lived showed me what a good man should be like. Am glad our son is like his Dad. And women miss out on so much when they try and control a man, rather than understand that by allowing a man to be a man, a woman will be treated better than she could ever imagine. Doesn't mean men want some weak woman. Weak women whine and are never happy. And I wish more women who whine and complain about men, would realize that sex can be beyond heaven when they submit and allow a man to be a man. My husband never said no to me when I asked for sex, and he never said no when I suggested we try something new.

And show me a woman who appreciates being a woman, be it cooking, cleaning, being wise with money, and not being a drama queen, and I will show you a healthy happy woman. TCM had an old episode of the D*ck Cavett Show on Thursday night late, and Katherine Hepburn was the quest and she was noting that women miss out on a lot when they forget what a wonderful thing it is to be a woman. Rather than thinking they have to compete with men.

Recommend a book about Chief Justice William Rehnquist, titled Rehnquist: A Personal Portrait of the Distinguished Chief Justice of the United States by Herman Obermayer which came out last fall. Love the book because it shows what a manly man he was, and how he and his wife would sit many evenings and read aloud to each other from various literary classics.

~Beth~
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 16
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 8:19:30 AM

There is a tremendous amount of hatred towards men now. It comes out in topics such as this. ... I know in my heart that men are not against the happiness and fulfillment of women; its all a silly myth.


Wow. This topic brings up so many mixed feelings and questions in me. First, thanks Femme for having the cojones for bringing it up and talking freely about what _you_ want. Good for you! Second, thanks Rococo for keeping a positive view of men in the face of so much ongoing criticism. I don't know any man who is _against_ the happiness and fulfillment of women. Personally, I love to see a woman who is in her full glory. It doesn't challenge or intimidate me at all to be in the presence of a fulfilled woman. It's heaven!


Too many still seem to go to such great lengths to humiliate, demean and shame men through all sorts of degrading antics ...


We've definitely become a culture that is openly hostile toward men. It used to be that we were tough on failures, but now there seems to be no way that a man can win unless he simply ignores a lot of people. Not much win in that.



I've waited all my life too, but there are many vicious women out there trying to chew them up and spit them out.


Well, yes. And that occurs in all sorts of ways both subtle and blatant. For example, there is certainly a differece between taking a woman who is willing and raping her, but feminist ideology completely misses that distinction. What has sadly lent credence to the feminist critique are those cases where men have also gotten it wrong. Being married to someone doesn't entitle either partner to more than the other is willing to give. Being married should not reduce either partner to a servile position. Giving willingly, genuinely pleasing each other in whatever way feels good to both partners, and showing true appreciation never hurt.


It hurts me to see men, great men, with looks of uncertainty on their faces due to having lost touch with their innate sense of manhood--that sense of manhood often still intact during adolescence.


It hurts us too.



Why men should have to grow up to then be beat down by women who distrust and wish to compete with them, I do not know.


Somewhere along the line, we lost touch with what marriage was supposed to be--a partnership. What's the difference between a man taking the lead by saying, "Honey, you've got great accounting skills, go get 'em!," and saying, "So what if you're good at that, my clothes need washing." If a man knows his woman, and supports her in being her best, and she does the same for him, it's a good marriage. But as with so many "revolutionary" strategies, we threw out the baby with the bath water and we're still trying to find the baby. BTW, in any sensible family, the baby would get bathed first, not last. It's not like there weren't problems with the old model of marriage and its rigid roles.


I believe in equality without competition--the competition is what sickens the dynamic between men and women--and it causes women to to simply use men to lash out at men in a spirit of vengeance--


Can you say more about what you mean by equality without competition?


... all of this folly leaves girls like us looking for a man who is stronger than all of that, one with lasting power, and strength, despite cultural pressures. Seems like most manly traits have now been defined as abusive, and good men don't want to be considered controlling or abusive, so they are in a bit of a pressure cooker with respect to their identities as men, often.


We do get tired of walking on eggshells with you. And now it seems that we've got two different sets of eggshells to avoid--the "traditional" ones and the "feminist" ones. Very tiresome and it makes it hard to appreciate women at all. There is a difference between a fulfilled woman, who is a joy to be around, and a "successful" one who is not. There are traditional women who are successful but vicious, and there are liberated women who are successful but vicious. A woman who yearns for fulfillment, is as honest about it as Femme, and who is willing to cooperate with a man who is also honest, is a rare find in my experience.

BTW, there is a difference between being willing and honest about what you want vs. whining about not having it. I can't give you the relationship you want, but I can certainly do my part to help us build it. Even if I'm the lead architect, I still need to know exactly what works for you, in every detail, in order to plan it all out and keep us on track. Also, there might be times when I need to question you on what you really want vs. what you think you want. We're all subject to crazy influences.


We can only hope to find a man still in tact or ready to rebound into true, feminine company. They are few and far between. :( But, you know exactly what you are looking for--and that helps! I think its kind of sad that its all actually considered a "lifestyle" choice--when in reality, its the most natural type of relationship between a man who is physically stronger and a woman who is naturally weaker. I think men should be free to capitalize on their strengths in a relationship and I do hope I find one who will let me be in his company!


You will not find a man who is intact. You might as well just forget that idea. Our culture breaks the boys at 3 years old. That is why the old model of marriage fell apart, because a 3-year-old doesn't understand equality. The moral development at that age is about privileges and consequences, competition and jealousy. That is why men became so focused on their privileges as indicators of their identity that they couldn't see women as equals. Of course, the degree of breakage varies, but there's still enough to taint too many marriages and lead to situations in which most women really have been oppressed.

You _can_ hope to find a man who is willing to do what it takes to make good on the promise of what true marriage can be. It might not look exactly like the traditional picture, but it will feel right because it will _be_ right. And if in our case it looks close to the old school picture, it will still feel different because it will be what _you_ want and not what you were _obligated_ to do.



Ok, enough for now, sweet dreams.


May we all awaken to find the quality of love we yearn for.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 17
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 11:13:44 AM

a widely distributed false premise that men seek to "oppress" women


It's a tailor-made excuse for any personal shortcoming, too. Like a black guy who's convinced himself that whenever something doesn't go his way, it's because he's black. One trouble with encouraging people to play the victim is that it gives them a license to do nasty things to their supposed oppressors, and not regret it. Look out for people who think they have a continuing right to be resentful.
 AceOfSpace
Joined: 5/28/2007
Msg: 18
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 11:49:59 AM
You can justify an attitude of entitlement in many different ways. Some are entitled because they're "superior." Others, because they're "victims."

If a woman wants to entrust her future with me, all I can say is that I'll do my best.
 femme in OC
Joined: 1/9/2010
Msg: 19
Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 11:50:41 AM
First off, thank you everyone for your feedback.

Secondly, I wanted to take the time and clarify a few points. Everyone has different definitions of what something means to them. These are my points of view:

Dominant & Submissive
The following article states what I was referring to when I mentioned “dominant” and “submissive” in my opening post: http://www.takeninhand.com/node/384 , which says, “Alternative labeling – such as “dominance” and “submissive” – only became necessary when men stopped acting like men and started trying to please women by becoming more feminine. Before the age of political correctness, it was generally understood that men behaved one way and women another. When the two genders came together as a couple, they fit like parts of a puzzle to form a whole that was greater than the sum of their parts.

Taken in Hand
http://www.takeninhand.com/what.you.need.to.know.about.taken.in.hand states, “... Taken In Hand relationship is a wholehearted sexually exclusive marriage in which, to the delight of both spouses, the man actively controls the woman. The degree of control and the way the husband retains control vary from Taken In Hand couple to Taken In Hand couple, but in all cases both husband and wife actively want the husband to have the upper hand. No matter how strong, tough and forceful a Taken In Hand wife may be, and no matter how hard she might try to take control in their marriage, she would be aghast if her husband were to let her get the upper hand. Likewise, no matter how loving, kind and considerate the husband may be, he prefers to keep his wife firmly in hand.” http://www.takeninhand.com/node/384 states this,”... Being taken in hand is not a lifestyle. It certainly is not an alternative lifestyle. Instead, it is a successful survival strategy that has withstood the test of time in both Eastern and Western cultures.”

Head of Household
A man in a committed relationship that makes the final decisions for his spouse & family. He exercises his “Veto” power like in government. He will know and understand his family’s needs and desires and make decisions according to what he feels is best.

I feel it takes a tremendous amount of trust, faith and courage for a woman to be in this type of relationship. Yet, I find it to be the premise of a loving, sexually satisfying, intimate relationship between a man and a woman. I for one, will happily relinquish unnecessary control/competition for the sake of MY version of "blissful" union with my man to be.
 Miss W
Joined: 12/4/2006
Msg: 20
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 12:23:25 PM

I feel it takes a tremendous amount of trust, faith and courage for a woman to be in this type of relationship.

No thanks. I for one have never met anyone who I would trust on this level. There are too many "kids" out there. By the way, this applies to both genders and all ages.

I will take a relationship with my equal any day where we both bring good things to the table and mutually respect the other. My grandparents were shining example of this. They never fought or competed with each other, when they had a challenge, they would sit over a cup of coffee and discuss things and work it out. When he lost his job during the Depression, she went to work. Balance and give and take is the key. Just my 2 cents.

 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 21
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 2:04:11 PM
^^^^^I agree that give and take is the ideal situation, and I don't see why reasonable people who like each other shouldn't be able to cooperate on almost anything they decide together. Where it can get tricky--with any two people--is when they have strong differences about something they need to agree on. That's a good reason to know someone, by talking about lots of things with them and seeing them in different situations, before you commit yourself too far.
 Miss W
Joined: 12/4/2006
Msg: 22
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 2:15:22 PM
^^^I'm so with you on this one Match. How they (either gender) conduct themselves in a variety of situations gives substantial insight into one's character.

I once had a beau who asked me to marry him after one month. I told him that if we make it to a year and still like each other, that I would consider it. After observing bouts of flaky behavior, anger management issues and an alcohol problem I said as he wasn't a grown up. He called me a year later (drunk) to say that I was the best thing that ever happened and I told him to see our relationship as an example of what not to do should he ever have another one. Perhaps my words were harsh, but...they were the truth.
 Mominatrix
Joined: 7/5/2006
Msg: 23
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 2:32:39 PM

“Alternative labeling – such as “dominance” and “submissive” – only became necessary when men stopped acting like men and started trying to please women by becoming more feminine.
This is a rather androgenic viewpoint. There are men who prefer to be submissive. There is freedom in submission, that comes from many directions. Freedom from responsibility, consequences, decision making, allowing yourself to be free in many ways is easier if someone is controlling your actions. It's a very different type of freedom than what we might generally imagine freedom to be.
Before the age of political correctness, it was generally understood that men behaved one way and women another. When the two genders came together as a couple, they fit like parts of a puzzle to form a whole that was greater than the sum of their parts.
And the gender roles have been shaken up considerably in the last 50 years or so, and perhaps in a way it's a good thing. A women who was left on her own, by either death or desertion, may need to support children and does deserve the same opportunities that a man does to do so.

Housewifery and childrearing have been maligned by both genders to the point where the woman who would choose to stay home, run the house and raise the children is considered almost a lower form of life. When raising the next generation is both difficult and significant work. This is in part driven by the economic policies, which makes it difficult for a single wage earner to support a family. Sociological viewpoints that make divorce a relatively simple and acceptable thing, have not helped.

It seems to have worked out to the male advantage as well. If you read a lot of the forums here, you see men hostile when they divorce women that once stayed home to raise children being a financial drain on them. Women who are career oriented and self sufficient are in demand, rather than a woman that would go out of her way to provide a pleasant home and provide loving support to their spouses.

In much the same way that women cannot "have it all," with regards to a strong, ambitious career track and being a mother with the time to devote to her children, men cannot either. You don't get the woman that is a high wage earner, that is going to sit around and listen to you tell her what to do and when to do it. She is not going to have dinner on the table or be willing to listen to you vent about work at your convenience.
 farscapeprincess
Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 24
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 3:30:52 PM

I feel it takes a tremendous amount of trust, faith and courage for a woman to be in this type of relationship. Yet, I find it to be the premise of a loving, sexually satisfying, intimate relationship between a man and a woman. I for one, will happily relinquish unnecessary control/competition for the sake of MY version of "blissful" union with my man to be.


Nope. Not happening with me. The word "veto power" grated on me like nails on a chalkboard. I can't be that submissive in a marriage. Marriage should be about equals and not one person having the "ultimate" and final word. I guess it just reminds of the old movies of the 50's and 60's where husbands had all the power and the little woman had none.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 25
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Taken in Hand/Head of Household
Posted: 1/16/2010 6:20:51 PM

I guess it just reminds of the old movies of the 50's and 60's where husbands had all the power and the little woman had none.


It's interesting how those times are so often portrayed now. Hollywood propagandists--who don't much care for this country--like to paint a snide, ugly picture of traditional American family life. And many people have come to believe that mythical view is accurate. It's soothing. If they should ever doubt that their own lives are as wonderful as advertised, they can tell themselves that at least things are better than in the bad old days, before we were liberated and enlightened. When you talk to people about those times, though, and watch the movies and TV shows made then, the stereotypical relationship you're scorning doesn't seem to be very common--let alone the norm.
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