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| | The Accidental ChristianPage 1 of 2 (1, 2) | I posted a similar topic a few years ago, and perhaps it's time to see how the discussion will go this time.
Here's the premise:
Somewhere deep in the Amazon lives a small tribe that's never been discovered by the rest of the world. As far as they are concerned, they are the only people on this planet. In that tribe is a man that (totally on his own) has a spiritual revelation one day that there is a higher power above.
He then sits down and essentially creates a religion that pretty much mirrors Christianity in how it views living one's life. All the basic concepts of Christ's message are there, and indeed the only thing missing is the mention of His name. If a Christian were to meet him, and reveal something like the Ten Commandments, he'd sit there nodding agreement at how obvious those ideas were to him.
Now, here's the question...
When he dies, does his soul go to Heaven ? He has done everything in his life that would meet the requirement - except being baptized or accepting Christ as his personal savior. That was not his fault.
For many Christians, that means he's not getting past the door.....even if he's technically been a closer follower of Jesus's teachings (albeit accidentally) than others in that same line. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 6:04:48 AM | I have a question for you. I grew up in a developed society with a TV, radio, the internet and annoying religious door knockers. I had exposure to religion. But I used my brain and I looked at the evidence around me, and i considered the possibilities, and I decided that religion makes no sense at all.
It's not my fault. That's the brain god gave me. Even if I tried, I just couldn't believe it because to me it's illogical.
Now is that my fault? Do you Losers think I’m going to hell??
And in answer to your question, no of course the guy in the little tribe is not going to hell. I don’t even believe in hell, or religion, but any god that you believe would send someone to hell ONLY because he wasn’t exposed to something during his life is an ARSE (weather he is real or make-believe). | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 7:51:43 AM | I believe – if God is satisfied with someone – he/she will definitely make to heaven. If modern days so-called Christians think otherwise – then they are in for a huge shocker. 
One can be forgiven for showing simple compassion – such as helping a helpless animal in distress. One single sign of compassion (in its truest form) might be enough to impress God. However, the sure way IMO is - to believe in one God, lead a righteous life (to the best of our ability) and believe in the judgment day. And try and seek available truth that is out there.
Btw, IMO any Christian who believes in Jesus’ deity – probably won’t make it to heaven (at least right away). If a boss send a secretary and we believe her to be boss then the actual boss has a right to be mad, especially if evidence is clear and the secretary repeatedly mentions (as Jesus did) that she is not the boss. To continue to believe in her being the boss is blasphemous IMO.
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 10:12:01 AM | | If the judeo-christian idea of hell were acurate, hell would be overrun with good, loving, caring people who never heard of and/or were not indoctrinated into believing that bible. If you want to avoid hell, it seems you don't do it by being a good person or leading a good life, you do it by brown-nosing to the right people. Apparently the creator is a vain being that is swayed by flattery. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 10:37:44 AM | To come to Jesus we rely on Jesus.
If the forest man is not mastered by anything unclean, and can accept grace to enter the presence of a holy God, then he will go into the light and love.
It is not knowledge that saves, it is God's presence and power, grace, mercy. Lenient providence, reaching out to ones who turn the back to justice, at least sometimes. God changes people to be prepared for His presence and the place of perfect just people and their love and any fragility...
We need turn back on the spirits of unclean thoughts, like murder... and that on greater power than from within.
He could be shown mercy. He need forgive his adversaries. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 10:38:36 AM | To come to Jesus we rely on Jesus.
If the forest man is not mastered by anything unclean, and can accept grace to enter the presence of a holy God, then he will go into the light and love.
It is not knowledge that saves, it is God's presence and power, grace, mercy. Lenient providence, reaching out to ones who turn the back to justice, at least sometimes. God changes people to be prepared for His presence and the place of perfect just people and their love and any fragility...
We need turn back on the spirits of unclean thoughts, like murder... and that on greater power than from within.
He could be shown mercy. He need forgive his adversaries. Himself then forgiven. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 10:53:31 AM | Well, the last time I posted this topic (and I have on a few different forums), I was rather surprised that many American "evangelist"/"born again" style Christians were quite united in saying that he didn't qualify because he had not accepted Christ as his personal savior.
That surprised me, as (in my view) this fellow had followed Christ's message to the letter, and could not be faulted for "rejecting Christ" simply because he'd never been exposed to the idea though no fault of his own. In some ways, he should get some merit points for having come up with it without anyone telling him.
I somehow doubt, if some higher power exists, that He will be this picky about details when placed against the path anyone takes on this mortal coil, and the decisions they make while here. It would be a theological tragedy to imagine a Heaven where this fellow gets told there is no room at the inn, while also imagining someone like Hitler standing there beside St. Peter smirking and placing two fingers shaped like an "L" against his forehead. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 2:16:49 PM |
many American "evangelist"/"born again" style Christians were quite united in saying that he didn't qualify because he had not accepted Christ as his personal savior.
So.. what happens to the Jews, the muslims, et el? Surely, Christians aren't thinking that they're the only ones righteous enough to make the grade?? What of those that believe in their God in heaven.. sans Jesus??
I think your little man in his village would be safe.. afterall, he's lived by the teaching. | |
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JMars
| | Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 9 | |
| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 4:01:35 PM | Well, a tribal culture existing in innocence of the rest of the urbanized world would not spontaneously formulate anything that resmebles Christianity because the sociological factors that led to the formulation of such cults as Christianity simply would not be present.
This fact is the reason why Christianity has had to constantly reinvent itself, ie. accomodate indigenous beliefs, as it sought to extend its borders outside of the city and beyond the Imperial Roman world.
The notion of salvation simply makes no sense to a healthy society; which rural tribal societes charactrsitically are.
But "lets say" ...
Everything that I have read from the supposed birth of Christ onward has instilled one fact; that unless you proclaim Christ your savior then, no matter how good a person you might be, you are destined for the Biblical Lake of Fire ... called Gehenna, not Hell ... the latter having no more basis in Biblical belief than Heaven, which are heathen concepts.
In fact, King Radbod, the 7th centyury King of Frisia, was on the verge of accepting baptism when he inquired into precisely this ... would his ancestors also be found in, ahem, "heaven". The missionary replied that his ancestors never knew Christ and so would burn in, ahem, "Hell" while he himself would enjoy eternal paradise at the right hand of, ahem, "God".
Needless to say, Radbod immediately reconsidered his conversion and then spent the rest of his life fighting against the Franco-Catholic war machine in an attempt to drive the Catholics out of Frisia.
Witness the the history of Christianity on forward, and it becomes not only the name of Christ, but fine points of doctrine that become dealbreakers over the fate of one's soul (to say nothing opf one's earthly life) in Christianit belief.
Would Christ concur? IMO, I don't think he'd be all that impressed. For all we know when he said that the only way into the kingdom of the father was through him, what he meant was the quality of faith ... a quality that doesn't require a healthy dose of pretentiousness to proclaim as universal. This seems to coincide with what else is is supposed to have said about not coming for the healthy, but for the sick.
But hey, I'm just one benighted heathen. In the end it's Chirstians that define Christianity, it's Christians who's deeds reflect the worth of their masters message.
Whats funny is that Christians will say none of them were true Christians (big surprise there), and then in the next breath boast how their are hundreds of millions of Christians in the world in order to make themselves feel better and/or seek to impress you. lol | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 5:18:15 PM | let's just say i sleep better at night knowing that christians aren't actually given any power & authority to determine what happens to people after they shuffle off this mortal coil.
people who believe heaven is some kind of eternal reward for good behavior on earth are no different than the infamous muslim who believes he gets 72 virgins when the boys from blackwater & co send him to meet his maker. ka*pow*
if the kingdom of heaven is within you, then there is no place to go... either now, or after you've kicked the proverbial bucket. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 8:50:06 PM | The idea is that we cannot obtain Heaven my merit of our behaviour, unless we obey all the law of Moses perfectly.
If two men are awaiting salvation, a nice man and a wicked one, and worst comes to worst, there is an accident, the nice one dies, but he was in bonds to telling lies and ogling the occasional pretty lady. And didn't forgive people from his heart. So he does not enter God's presence. Then what, must a fair onlooker decide that the wicked man must be lost too, to be fair? Isn't it better if one is saved of two, since the price is paid?
Yes God could have mercy on the nice man.
Ultimately, none can enter God's presence to stay because of sin, injustice. Both because The Father cannot endure sin, He hates it, He does not change. And God loving the just and warm hearted people in His presence, will not tolerate evil aimed at them in their places. Heaven is Heaven, a lovely place, of no evil intent.
However, regardless of sin, for Jesus took on sin's power and destroyed it, by Jesus blood, sin is washed away, justice... is infused, and when the the Father in Heaven looks at that one, by Jesus power he has the hope of glory, and the Father sees Jesus justice and love. The person becomes like God, 2 Cor 5:21, and is changed for Heaven, the Father's pleasure and eternal life.
The mercy of God for a tribal man is unknown, what powers and hopes for the man in bonds and injustice in the next life are a mystery.
Children grow up in Heaven. Only when mastered by sin or anger... are we in danger.
Jesus blood, glorified, a spiritual outpouring is what we need now, to prepare. | |
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*sass*
| | Joined: 11/2/2008
Msg: 12 | |
| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/8/2010 11:40:08 PM | I personally don't think that God sees us as believer or non, but then..I'm weilding no book proposed to be inerrant, so what do I know?
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/9/2010 12:50:33 AM |
if the kingdom of heaven is within you, then there is no place to go... either now, or after you've kicked the proverbial bucket.
No "If" about it....the potential is within all of us....all we have to do is realize that doing unto others = doing unto oneself.
This is the place...here and now...what comes after is unimportant....maybe nothing, regardless of how one's life is spent.
The mercy of God for a tribal man is unknown...
We are all "tribal" humans, parsed into sects by other humans who wish to influence...generally for their own advantageous results.
So far, we use about 10% of our gray matter....our potential is a long way off...
If there is an all powerful being, logic would dictate that it would be unconcerned about which stripe one associated with....uninterested in worship nor platitudes....
Doing things in the hope to be rewarded in the hereafter is the ultimate in selfishness.
Do it now...the future will be.... | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/9/2010 3:14:24 AM | Message #1
This hypothetical reminds me of a quotation from Annie Dillard......
Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?" Priest: "No, not if you did not know." Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
Your question is rather moot, as the premise relies on whether God, Jesus, heaven, and immortal souls exist, and whether the contents of the biblical testaments are true. At best we can only say that they are matters of conjecture rather than fact. It is entirely possible that some God, or gods other than the Christian dieties are pre-eminent in the supernatural domain...if indeed such a domain exists. In which case, the primitive tribal person may be backing the wrong horse to Heaven, Nirvana, Valhalla, Shangri La or whatever, if they take Christianity on board.
If for the sake of the thought experiment one was to accept the foregoing....different sects within the Christianity would give different answers in accordance with their own particular doctrines, dogmas and interpretations of their sacred texts. Some would argue that the heathens would burn in hell...some would argue that they may gain entrance to heaven, and undoubtedly some may say....if the appropriate generous donations to the church are made...."things can be arranged". Apparently pardoners did a roaring trade, selling dodgy indulgances to the gullible in medieval times. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/9/2010 4:57:25 AM |
When he dies, does his soul go to Heaven ? He has done everything in his life that would meet the requirement - except being baptized or accepting Christ as his personal savior. That was not his fault.
In my opionion, yes.
In fact, I dont believe in the "Hell" as it is taught any way. There is no such thing. All the words that "hell" was translated from can be traced back to 3 words. None of which referred to a eternal burning torment.
Also, for those who insit that our death is some kind of dead line, like the end of a foot ball game?
Why did Jesus go to teach to the ones lost in Noahs time, after his death?
I also, do not believe that sin, condemns one. I think, we were told enough times in the Scriptures that all the world was reconciled to God. Even the earth its self and things in heaven.
That is what I think it was meant that all are saved through Christ. His sacrifice reconciled us to God once again. The sin of one, one single sin, condemned many, but his death did away with all sin and all were econciled back to God once again. Those before or after, believers or not.
Not sure if I can dispute a lot of these claims here though with out quoting scripture which I was told is not allowed after a post I did about Astrology and that it isnt a so called sin.
But in my opinion, yes, that person is going to be with God. But then I think, its Gods plan that all will be.
By the way OP, you might be surprsied to know that some prominent evangelicals also question this. Billy Graham for one, has said he honestly doesnt know. But he suspects God does accept one as you mentioned. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/9/2010 5:21:32 AM | | Doing things for rewards, being it that they are not material, but spiritual, makes it different from selfish pursuit. Matters of esteem, such as Jesus who with faith and not knowledge, gave His life for many, as a ransom. His rewards is wisdom and honour and glory and power. He is esteemed as worthy of all of this. And He is in peace and joy as the giver. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/9/2010 5:29:00 AM | people bear their own crosses. that's part of the reason why these words were attributed to jesus: "the things you see me do you shall do also, but greater". is it not bleeding obvious, when you see all the varieties of human misery that are available to be personally experienced?
there is nothing for jesus to "give" you, that you don't already have within your own being. but people aren't listening, because -- as usual -- they want something for free.... so much so, that entire dogmas have been built up around it and staunchly defended to explain how you can't even get it for the asking, "but by grace alone".... a supernatural favor without merit or explanation to be handed out on the apparent whim by that Giant Daddy In The Sky. oy! the "gimme" mentality didn't start with the welfare state. yes indeed, there's nothing new under the Son. lol!
if we had to rely on jesus to "give" us anything, all those damned filthy savages in the jungle would be lost to the depths of hell forever and ever... just because they don't know jesus. [:eyeroll:] | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/9/2010 1:18:37 PM |
He then sits down and essentially creates a religion that pretty much mirrors Christianity in how it views living one's life.
- That depends on what denomination of Christianity you are talking about. There are some who don't believe in the idea of Trinity and while others who do.
- Which of these is the man's religion mirror with? If he hasn't heard about Christ and believes that there is a higher power up there, that totally goes against the idea of Trinity and thus he believes in ONE god up there.
So...............
- His religion mirror Christians who believe that there is ONE god up there as well as Jews and Muslims.
But............
If his brand of religion has concept of trinity in it, then he is more Christian than Muslim or Jew.
Now, here's the question...
When he dies, does his soul go to Heaven ? He has done everything in his life that would meet the requirement - except being baptized or accepting Christ as his personal savior. That was not his fault.
- The answer to this question also relies on whether he believes in ONE power god up there or he has the idea of trinity. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/9/2010 8:28:05 PM | motown cowgirl, the successful Christian does receive grace from above, and into the spirit. And does ask from the Father's hand. Jesus wanted that.
As far as greater works, Jesus said it depends on Him being with the Father, if anything, it would be missions in Africa, in which millions experience Jesus power in a night, and accept Christ, turning from Islam. And at the same time, another under stage rises from the dead. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/10/2010 3:27:40 AM | the successful Christian does receive grace from above....
As far as greater works, Jesus said it depends on Him being with the Father.... it would be missions in Africa, in which millions experience Jesus power in a night, and accept Christ, turning from Islam
right. so your religion is better than theirs. jesus said so!
but there are no special favors, apparently, for the UNsuccessful christian.
that's funny, i'd think that sort would be especially meriting of the unmerited.
would not the hand of god come straight out of the clouds to pluck his lambs from their path to the land of the lost?
[:eyeroll:]
in the name of all things that are holy, how can anything i might do "depend" on jesus being "with" the father, when he said all along that "i and my father are one"?
don't actually bother answering that question. it's rhetorical, because i know you don't have the right answer.
the cross of ignorance is always heavier to bear than one realizes, until it's too late.
[:wink:]
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/10/2010 4:36:04 AM | Jesus said so, and it is very good for us, if the situation becomes free enough, from fear of reprisals, that six million a year, also say "Jesus is the best", by choosing Him back.
I can see, you and many here are an extraction of commentors on religion, that require doubt in Christ as a prerequisite for acceptance as "fair and open minded". Apparently for believing Jesus, I am closed minded. Only open minded people should be seen and heard. I have friends in agnostics, but they will chat.
Jesus came from the Father and, the Spirit of grace was sent and is now here, central presence, since Pentecost. They are one being.
I pursue knowing the Truth and justice of God, therefore I will only believe what I am confident is true. How can you say you are not sure, and then no one else should be either? It is like you are saying we are unfair and Jesus is unfair. That we make up testimonies of healings and forgiveness and freedom, of receiving love and being changed, with false motives, in very big numbers. | |
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/10/2010 5:29:49 AM | you are free to subscribe to whatever religion suits you, as is anyone else. i never said you are close minded, but you are less free to foist the obvious contradictions of your own thought processes on me, and not have them called out on the philosophical carpet. you are also less free to foist your own religion upon others... by implication or otherwise (e.g., at the point of the sword... to which history bears witness).
so instead of adopting the persecution act, why don’t you just clarify the contradictions or otherwise address the points i raised? I guess it’s easier to change the subject, isn’t it. you sly devil.
not only did i not say that i was unsure, but i also didn't demand how other people should think. i believe religious zealots the world over have that market pretty much cornered.
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| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/10/2010 7:22:51 AM |
in the name of all things that are holy, how can anything i might do "depend" on jesus being "with" the father, when he said all along that "i and my father are one"?
Jesus was sent from the Father's throne, and His. Then He returned and sent the Holy Spirit.
Jesus return with the crushing of sin and death in His hand, and that there was no humbling of Jesus anymore, so He was glorified, all glory, honour, wisdom and power given to Him, and Jesus awakened and making people fully access the Father, interceding non stop on our behalf, sin or not, means that we can do greater works than Jesus did. Not only five thousand and many healings... It may be that none yet have done greater works.
The Holy Spirit and the Father are one, as is Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
It is also good that the dividing wall between Jews and gentiles was broken down. For works other than wars, which was not God's will, and also we should not be sheep to the slaughter. | |
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JMars
| | Joined: 10/14/2006
Msg: 25 | |
| The Accidental Christian
Posted: 2/10/2010 12:32:09 PM |
We are all "tribal" humans, parsed into sects by other humans who wish to influence...generally for their own advantageous results.
We were tribal since the beginning. And this had everything to do with mutual survival and collective prosperity, and nothing to do with exploitation and control of others ... which is a "civilized" social dynamic.
It's a good idea to consult anthropologists on the nature of tribalism, for the same reason that is a good idea to consult a physicist on physics. You don't ask a geologist, a nutritionist, or the "pretty little bleach blonde that comes on a 5". They don't **know** anything about tribalism. Why would they? lol | |
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