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 killene
Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 1
Will You ChangePage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
I know many were pleased and many were not with how the Health Care Bill vote went down.

Will this new Health Care Bill change who you vote for this coming election in Oregon.

Do you feel that our Oregon elected Congressional Representatives and Senators represented yours and the Oregon's views and needs in how they voted?
 funnestguyme
Joined: 3/3/2010
Msg: 2
Will You Change
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:16:44 AM
It won't change how I vote, because I already knew that very few politicians represent the heartbeat of the people.

Unfortunately, during this last presidential election, when the majority of Americans voted in this current president, most of them were simply voting for change. And THEY GOT IT.

Never mind that the person who brought change had already proven himself to be a racist (associated with Jeremiah Wright), not even an American born citizen (no birth certificate), but also a liar. He brought change and that's all that mattered.

Now many of those that openly supported him and voted for him, are unhappy with him. Wake up call. You voted for him--not because he was worthy of being president, but because he was change.
 Rikkm
Joined: 6/12/2007
Msg: 3
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Posted: 3/22/2010 9:35:34 AM
I won't change....but this healthcare bill does not do enough....we need healthcare like they have in Europe
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 4
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Posted: 3/22/2010 6:47:57 PM
I was very pleased to see that at the end of the debate the opposition started talking about the Constitution and the vision of our founding fathers, not specifically health care. Health care is simply an iconic example of the issue, the issue is the deterioration of the Constitution, and the Government it supports.

It is interesting that Europe is mentioned. When our Country was first being developed, it was from European Governments that the people fled. In 1787 when our Constitution was being designed, the convention considered all the Governments known in history at that time. What they wanted most was to design a Government new and different, that in no way resembled the Governments of Europe that they fled from.

What is sad is that the Countries and cultures of Europe are a thousand years old or more; and we here in America, in less then 300 years have forgotten what the experiment was, and what was our purpose. After creating something so magnificent, we appear willing to let it crumble for the sake of entitlements, are we really so weak and feeble? Our fore fathers, and those before us, have fought and died with the belief that future generations will carry forth the original vision.

I will vote for any Constitutionalist!
 killene
Joined: 3/28/2009
Msg: 5
Will You Change
Posted: 3/22/2010 9:54:05 PM

I will vote for any Constitutionalist!


There are 39 states that have enacted amendments, put on ballot, looked into or put on their legislation floor some type of "Freedom of Choice in Health Care Act" which looks into the constitutionality of the bill, our state of Oregon is Not one of them. Except for California, all the other states around us are making objections to the constitutionality of the Health Care Bill.

Heard some talk but still trying to find if we at least have someplace in our state of Oregon a citizen-led initiative like Colorado has. Would there even be enough people in our state or do the supporters of the Bill outnumber the non-supporters.



Texas Is 39th State to Defend Health Care Choice State Legislators Vow to Protect Citizens from ObamaCareLine http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Press_Releases&Template=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=12803
 majiczone
Joined: 3/4/2009
Msg: 6
Will You Change
Posted: 3/29/2010 4:26:57 PM
Like the other poster, I think it doesn't go far enough..
In saying that, it had to start somewhere... Now that we have it, don't loose it, improve on it !!!
 Gemguy
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 7
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Posted: 4/3/2010 4:29:39 PM
As to the OP's question, No. I found the passage of the Health Care Bill to be the result of national organizations and not local.
I'm really disappointed that a better thought out bill wasn't passed. Before we start requiring things of citizens I'd really like to see big Pharma and the Insurance industry regulated along with some kind of Tort reform. I fear we'll all be enslaved by corporations in some way and this seems like the beginning. The worse part is how both parties are lying through their teeth and so few of our elected officials are working toward the common good. We created this mess and now we're having to live with it...
Still proud to be an American, but rather worried.
Gemguy
 Scivore
Joined: 3/27/2010
Msg: 8
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Posted: 4/26/2010 10:07:01 PM
Our Congresscritters did their best. What we really need is a European-style social welfare state. It's just unfortunate that the uber-rich have enough resources now to brainwash a frighteningly large number of people into supporting whatever they want, even to the point of convincing them that every man is an island (not!). Our nation was founded on Enlightenment principles: rational skepticism is self-skepticism. Don't believe everything you think, let alone everything you hear on Clear Channel and Fox.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 9
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Posted: 5/19/2010 1:22:07 PM
I see that Europe is still being mentioned, but no one mentioning the European approach is acknowledging my post about the founding fathers intent...does that mean there is a belief that the founding fathers were wrong, and we should have never broken away from the motherland?
 Gemguy
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 10
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Posted: 5/23/2010 2:44:07 PM
Kowboi,
I don't want to speak for those folks that want to "return to the motherland" , I will say that health care in this country is in crisis. It's OUR fault to boot. We have allowed our elected officials to use the tax code as a barter system for "getting things done in Washington" and helping those same officials to raise funds for re-election. Our way of electing people to office is skewed to the those with the deepest pockets. We have career politicians that have graduated from college and jumped into minor positions and worked their way to higher office. While in theory that's not necessarily a bad thing, they become millionaires in the process. Which is a problem. Becoming rich off of the political process is the same as getting rich from bribs.
Health care has been climbing rapidly in cost over the past few decades and it is a impediment to business in this country. Right at this moment, a large portion of individuals working in this country still have health care. Unfortunately, costs are not coming down and within 5-7 years we could see a large percentage of the working population be without insurance because of these high costs. Also (unfortunately) private enterprise hasn't stepped up to offer a viable solution. Not that it could. I have several friends that are medical doctors and they have the consummate student loans to prove it. When I talk with them about medical malpractice insurance you see a wave of pain come over their faces. The financial burden one undertakes to practice medicine is crushing. It has to be passed on to the consumer which is all of us. We pay that way and we pay when someone uses a hospitals' ER to treat those that cannot pay for insurance.
I don't agree with the bill that was passed and would like to see other measures implemented, but our corrupt political process kills them due to special interests.
I don't read any part of the constitution to read that health care is a right or that government should provide it. What I do read is government has broad powers that could include helping with health care. The constitutional framers didn't envision health care as a "right" anymore than they made being a good Samaritan a law. They had the expectation that people would get care as a matter of compassion. While they did a wonderful job in writing the constitution, they had the foresight to allow for it's amendment. For the document to grow in scope and direction. By the people, for the people...
I guess that I should say that we need to do something about health care in this country and fast before it strangles and poisons us. The steps taken aren't what I would do but at least it puts the problem into our face.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 11
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Posted: 5/23/2010 7:38:14 PM
Gemguy,
I think you and I may be in agreement on many points, and health care certainly needs some attention, but let's not destroy the pillars of this country in trying to reach the objective. This country was was established on the rights and freedoms of the individual, once the Government steps in the individual is barely visible. The individual bill of rights is what has set us apart from all other Governments, and people streamed here from all lands for the opportunity this country has successfully offered. In recent times we have seen the country of Greece fail, a country in which the Government was in control of all aspects of life, for the benefit of the masses. With the current decimation of the Euro, we can see that the European model fails...but then we knew that 300yrs ago...we just forgot.
 Gemguy
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 12
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Posted: 5/24/2010 8:59:12 PM
Kowboi,
With all due respect, having health care reform we are still free in every sense of the word. Individual freedoms are determined by the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. How does health care reform attack personal freedom? Kind of a leap to me. Right now a company gets to decide if you get the necessary operation or medication that you might need. They work out the numbers and decide life or death. The government would have to do the same thing. When the government does it from a larger pool of people the larger amount of funds does give them less incentive to turn down treatments. A business always has a profit motive. Government should have a incentive to reduce costs but rarely does. Nothing is perfect.
Greece's problem are a complex mess which includes some of our homegrown hedgefund types and other high powered fund managers that worked to help hide some of Greece's national debt. The Greek government did it to get into the EU. Same kind of crap the other countries like Romania were trying to do, but were much less successful in their execution.
In other words, American companies had a hand in some of Greece's problems. As for the EU failing; it will be a matter of IMF policies, large predatory banks and how each member government strategists decide to deal with the problems.
I wouldn't be so quick to point to the "European model" as a failure when the same greedy SOBs that have wrecked our economy have screwed with them. Actually - we need to reign in these reckless corporate pirates that seem to be running amok. I would love to read that 45-50 of the wealthiest individuals involved in these avarice based companies in the USA were found murdered. They need to pay a price for their crimes.
We have forgotten that greed knows no bounds and we need to remind them that not everyone is sheep-like in this country.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 13
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Posted: 5/26/2010 7:30:10 PM
Oh please, someone besides just me and Gemguy have to be in on this conversation :)

I believe power knows no bounds either. When Obama seeks to initiate an "existence" tax, we are setting precedence that leads down a very slippery slope. I don't think that taxing someone just for being alive was in our founding fathers design...and I find the very concept an affront, and abhorrent. Life is a gift from our creator, whoever that is to those who believe in one, and Obama has no right to tax it. Our country is based on the belief that individuals have rights given to them from their creator, and Governments have no authority over them.

How large and powerful does a Government become before they start encroaching on our God given rights?
 Gemguy
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 14
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Posted: 5/27/2010 7:58:20 PM
"Oh please, someone besides just me and Gemguy have to be in on this conversation :) "

Kowboi, I won't take that personally :-)

I also blanch at the idea that if I don't pay a large insurance company money that I will have to pay a tax as a penalty. I also hate the idea of having a second job just so I can afford insurance I might need. Either situation sucks hard.
Actually, we have had the government encroach on our rights. Luckily, the state of Oregon has enacted the Death with Dignity law and we can at least choose to end our lives within a given circumstance.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 15
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Posted: 5/28/2010 7:19:30 PM
Gemguy,
Hmmm, you may have a valid point :)
 WantaSmart1
Joined: 8/18/2008
Msg: 16
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Posted: 7/29/2010 10:18:53 PM
I've lived here for the past 25 years. Neither the state or Federal representatives and senators have EVER represented my views...even after they promised to. The majority of the Federal "representatives" voted in the supposed magic cures for the economic downturn.

How's that working out for everyone? Both the Democratic and Republican parties have pretty much become an even larger joke than they have ever been. These folks don't think before they act - They act, then when things turn rotten, they repeal or modify their prior acts.

Re: the Health Care act...Note that England has just decided to abandon their system of socialized medicine. Most every other European country is also showing the cracks in a socialized medical system. So is Canada...my in-laws used to cross south of the border to get timely treatment. That's all no surprise - except to Congress when it also turns rotten - again. Just wait.
 kbodley
Joined: 11/26/2008
Msg: 17
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Posted: 7/30/2010 8:52:30 PM
Well, Kowboi and Gemguy, I swore that I wouldn't get dragged into any more debates on politics or relgion on this forum - but this is an issue that touches too close to home!

My son, age 23, has Type 1 Diabetes - used to be called Juvenile Diabetes. From the time he was 8 months old until he was 22 he was covered under his dad's health insurance at work. We paid approximately $114/month to cover him on the day that he turned 23 - then the same doctors, pharmacy, prescription coverage, etc. cost usn $271/month!

Do we desparately need health care reform? Absolutely!

Is the bill that was passed the be all and end all? Of course not!

Is it a start in the right direction? Let's hope so!
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 18
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Posted: 7/31/2010 9:28:13 AM
Kbodley,

While I sympathize with your situation, and I can also agree that healthcare reform is something to be addressed, the idea that this is the start of the right direction, I must respectively disagree. Current news reporting states that austerity measures in Europe are forcing them to realize that a socialized approach to healthcare is a broken model, and not financially sustainable. I can't fathom how going though the motions of proving those truths here in America is the right direction, keeping in mind that many believe things done in America will have a different outcome then when done in the rest of the world.

Another element of this discussion is the idea that if the Federal Government were to take control of healthcare, the auto industry, and banking, things will be handled in a fairer more efficient manner...the greatest farce ever sold to the American people, there is no empirical data to support this notion. Our fore fathers were quite aware of what would happen if the Federal Government was not held in check, and restricted from gaining too much power and authority...you would have what we have today...you would have Europe.

Oh that we knew what our fore fathers knew.
 WantaSmart1
Joined: 8/18/2008
Msg: 19
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Posted: 8/2/2010 1:45:14 AM
"Another element of this discussion is the idea that if the Federal Government were to take control of healthcare, the auto industry, and banking, things will be handled in a fairer more efficient manner...the greatest farce ever sold to the American people, there is no empirical data to support this notion. "

I couldn't agree more. Also just out on the newswires this weekend is the fact that Cuba is now going to kick a bunch of their citizens off socialized government makework rolls and have them instead start small businesses. Those businesses in turn will be taxed and will pay hefty licensing fees in order to bolster the remainder who will be on socialized, subsidized entitlements. That last part SURE does sound familiar...
 kbodley
Joined: 11/26/2008
Msg: 20
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Posted: 8/3/2010 7:50:48 PM

Another element of this discussion is the idea that if the Federal Government were to take control of healthcare, the auto industry, and banking, things will be handled in a fairer more efficient manner...the greatest farce ever sold to the American people, there is no empirical data to support this notion. Our fore fathers were quite aware of what would happen if the Federal Government was not held in check, and restricted from gaining too much power and authority...you would have what we have today...you would have Europe.


Please tell me where you are getting your information! I have never heard anyone in the administration talk about "taking control of healthcare." I believe that what the Obama administration was hoping to offer was a "public option." Otherwise, let the rest of us (who are without employer funded health insurance) opt in to the same marketplace as federal employees enjoy! The reason the health insurance industry is so opposed to this program is that they are well aware that when uninsured and small businesses find out what small premiums the federal employees are enjoying, there will be a massive uprising against the health insurance industry as a whole! Anyone who doesn't believe that the American public is being taken to the cleaners by the health insurance (and medical providers - hospitals, pharmaceutical companies, etc.) is just foolish!
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 21
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Posted: 8/4/2010 5:22:02 PM
Tsk, tsk, tsk, as much as I love ya kbodley, you're not thinking this all the way through. The "public option" is financially supported by the Federal Government. Any industry forced to compete against the resources of the Federal Government, will lose. The opposing argument to the "public option", an argument that I believe is valid, is that it was never intended that the Federal Government compete in the marketplace.

If you look at countries where one must meet or beat the Government in the marketplace, you will find that these countries have a decidedly Socialist bent.


I have never heard anyone in the administration talk about "taking control of healthcare."


How would you define Obamacare? Who's calling the shots, the health care industry, or the Federal Government?
 Gemguy
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 22
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Posted: 8/10/2010 8:44:22 PM
Hey Kowboi, yep it's me again. I'd like to point out some problems with that argument (that competing with government is impossible). First, that's sort of comparing apples to oranges. Governments generally don't operate "industries" like health care. They simply provide health care. It's only in America (and a couple of 3rd world countries) that we have for-profit companies that operate within a health care industry. Our system wasn't awful until recently in the last decade or so. Secondly, when you ask "who's calling the shots?" I'd like to answer. The for-profit health care companies. The stupid health care bill passed gives very little power to the government. They basically said " You little people, you have to buy insurance and we'll make the insurance company profit wildly and require that you buy their product years before you get to use it." They solved none of the other problems that plague the system that drive up the costs (we discussed in earlier posts) and now they shove the system down our throats. I just love being forced to pay for insurance when some of the CEOs get paid in the HUNDREDS of Millions in salary over a brief time to run these companies. Talk about public subsidy. I think I'll spend some time sighting in the scope on my rifle.

Kbodley, I'm sorry to hear about your health care costs going up. I'm sure your son needs his meds and Doctor's visits. Unfortunately, I'd be paying almost twice what your son pays and I'm healthy (and 51) . My mind sympathizes with you while my wallet doesn't doesn't like it one bit. I believe everyone has to have health care but, we have a broken system that leads back to our broken political system. Money buys influence and influence changes laws. Kbodly have you been out protesting the CEO salarys and contacting your legislators? I've sent various emails to my congressman and senator. We have to get them to listen. Add your voice.
Gemguy
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 23
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Posted: 8/12/2010 8:38:31 PM
Hey Gem, Kinda expected to see you again :)

I"m not sure whether I agree or disagree with your statement, but it does bring a question to mind. When did affordable healthcare as a right (entitlement) actually happen?
Having just read the account of the Constitutional Convention of 1787, I know it was not part of the discussion then. I haven't heard of it being part of the public discourse during the WWII generation. Does anyone know what year or administration, healthcare as a right, that wasn't be fulfilled happened? I'm just trying to keep the historical timeline straight in my head.
 Gemguy
Joined: 7/8/2006
Msg: 24
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Posted: 8/14/2010 2:04:37 AM
Hey Kowboi,
Good to see you too. I hope you realize there were several accounts of the Constitutional Convention. I wouldn't just rely on one. I think its fair to say the founding fathers did a incredible job of creating a document that is adaptive and evolving. They knew there was a need to modify and add amendments, hence why they put those measures in the Constitution. If you look at the government of modern Germany (postWW2) you find that we helped design them design a new government model that included public health care system. We won the war and they got a version of singe payer insurance. That was 60 something years ago so that would have been the Truman administration, I believe.

Health care as a government entitlement hasn't happened yet. Yeah, I know they signed the bill and all but it's still not here and won't be for years. Maybe not the answer you were looking for? How about this: When it becomes necessary to have the government step in because private industry (insurance companies) are screwing folks over bad. Go back in history and remember that we didn't always have certain governmental agencies. Take public transportation. Back when trains were pretty much the only public transportation and un-regulated, there were terrible train accidents. There were problems with how tracks were built and how fast trains went and how they were built. After many years of accidents getting worse and worse the public began to see that maybe just maybe there should be government oversight of the trains/tracks/railroad bridges. The railroad company owners fought like the****ns to stop any regulation, but they eventually lost. Thus was born the NTSB! Do we still have railroad accidents? Yep. But not generally ones that kill dozens several times a year in all major cities. I'd still rather have the NTSB than not have it, wouldn't you?

See Kowboi I have a problem with industries that want to self regulate. It doesn't work and never has worked. Not that the health care in this country hasn't had regulations it's just that health care insurance companies are getting away with murder. Literal murder. They decide that someone doesn't get the necessary treatments because it's too expensive when they pay C.E.O.s tens or hundreds of millions of dollars in salary. Your child dies 'cause a treatment is 200K, but the C.E.O. gets a new 100ft yacht and a condo in Vail. We might as well start calling some of these C.E.O.s "Lord" or "Your Highness" since they have life and death control of those folks they insure.
Do I want the government running health care in it's entirety? Hell no. I want the my elected officials to make sure the industry meets the moral and ethical standards considered normal in the rest of modern society. I could use the phase " regulate not dominate!" to describe my objectives.
 Kowboi
Joined: 1/5/2007
Msg: 25
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Posted: 8/22/2010 7:22:26 PM
Gem,
NTSB is a valid and well made point, I'll concede that one...see I'm not as stubborn as some think :)

That being said, I still have great fears of Government control. I work in the financial industry, Obama's vision was that our economic crisis could have been controlled with greater Government oversight and regulation. Now having a chance to experience the realities of his vision, I find them to be an absolute horror.

I live in a little cow-town where the livelihoods of the members of this agrarian community are directly related to my ability to lend them money. Because Farmers and Ranchers only get paid once a year, when their crops are sold, they come to me for what is essentially a payday loan until sale, and have for generations. For the past 2yrs Federal Auditors have been hammering us pretty hard over documentation and analysis. Not matter what we have done, or the increase in resources to do it, I have yet to have them open any file and find the documentation or analysis sufficient.

What used to be a 2 week decision is now a 4 month decision, and no functioning business can survive those kinds of monetary delays. I have money to lend, and people who are asking for it, but because of Government regulation, I can't get it out the door. I think my story is a perfect example of why the National economy can't move...it's regulated to death!

My fear is that this type of bureaucratic stagnating logjam will also be demonstrated in Government controlled healthcare. Perhaps I'm just being idealistic, but I think Government should support the people, not control them.

If industry regulation is not the answer, and Government regulation is not the answer, perhaps we need to think outside the box. In any event I'm sure the answer will not come from the Government, but from "we the people."
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