| | The catastrophic break up of the NHS.Page 1 of 6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) | "There is a crisis in the National Health Service (NHS). The publication of the Health and Social Care Bill last week heralds dramatic changes for the NHS, which will affect the way public health and social care are provided in the UK. Those changes alone will have huge impact, but it is the formation of an NHS Commissioning Board, and commissioning consortia, that will once and for all remove the word “national” from the health service in England. The result, due to come into force in 2013, will be the catastrophic break up of the NHS."
Source http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2811%2960110-4/fulltext
What the Lancet says is that the Condemned's bill will destroy our NHS. Is this a good thing? And if not should people fight it / protest it as best they can? | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 9:31:06 AM | | yes the NHS is now a sinking ship especially now the plans are to let the doctors control most of the budget, worse to come this is only the beginning , in time hospitals will be closing as there wont be the NHS patients to keep it going as the doctors will be able to buy private care for the patients , so looks like its going to be goodbye to the NHS , so much for the government planning to make things better for the NHS,, Protests are good but if the government wont listen to people in politics that has already told them what will happen , then they are surely not going to listen to protesters | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 9:40:17 AM | The N H S has been constantly been changed over the last decade if not more, re zoning of areas moving specialities together
I am a qualified nurse but left the job albeit temporarily for a few years one of reasons i did was i was constantly doing paperwork hardly ever seeing my patients I went into nursing to care for people not to sit writing or using a computer all day or most of the day
What i have noticed in recent years having been a patient that the waiting lists times are definetly down Will this change now i wonder
Yes people should protest as this affects each and everyone of us | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 9:48:35 AM | maybe because it is not cost efficient, and layers of administration have rusted up the wheels of progress?
http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/nhs-patients-receiving-private-operations-to-cut-costs/1998630.article
NHS Patients are being sent for operations at a private hospital in Sussex because it costs less than the NHS.
Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals NHS Trust says the one-off fee charged by nearby Nuffield Hospital is less than its own overhead costs.
A ‘huge increase’ in winter admissions that have left the trust unable to cope has raised concerns with the independent NHS Federation.
Federation spokesman Paul Evans told the Brighton Argus: ‘If this is a one-off project that helps patients get timely treatment then I suppose it is understandable, but… we need to make sure that in the long-term the NHS is capable of providing the care needed for all of its patients.’
A spokeswoman for the trust said: ‘Because of a slight backlog of patients waiting to go into theatre we have the option to open at the weekends. But it’s cheaper to send them to a private hospital where there is just a one-off fee.’
A Nuffield spokesman confirmed that it had been taking on about seven NHS patients a week, but would not comment on how much their treatment costs.
so what the government is proposing isnt exactly new, but hey ho lets ignore facts.
if you speak to those in the nhs they will tell you a fair amount of operations cost more to the state then sending someone private, and indeed i remember them sending people abroad.
but lets get this to basics, if you walk into a chemist and want plasters and they are priced at a fiver, but you pop down to tescos and and see the branded box for less then 3 quid then which one will you buy?
im sure i can find a few links to show how much money and resources are being wasted, instead of moaning maybe people should think about how to fix the system. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 10:02:18 AM | Is it that cost inefficient? there will in such a large organisation always be scope for improvement and, with the advance of technology, change, but per capita costs - this shows where we sit now
http://www.visualeconomics.com/healthcare-costs-around-the-world_2010-03-01/
And it shows that privatisatsion by the back door (which is effectively what the Condemned are trying to do) may be as catastrophic as The Lancet predicts. Our Primary Care system is one of the best in the world - end of. How the NHS has managed the huge multinational pharmaceutical companies has also provided massive dividends to us. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 10:05:42 AM | In the meantime your not thinking how many nurses and other health staff will lose their jobs in the NHS so yet again thousands will become jobless ,so really its not saving money as the people in the NHS that become jobless may claim benefits which is going to cost the government more cash there
NHS : 'patient-centred' reform means 24500 job losses
More Jobs To Be Cut In The NHS - Nursing Personnel News | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 10:13:47 AM | | Oh but that's part of their "magic formula" - get rid of the world class cost-efficient Forensic Service - all the costs go with it. Reform the NHS and all the costs and people just go away. In their little world I'm not surprised if they haven't thought of taking the soldiers boots away - they wouldn't need any replacement footwear would they? | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 10:48:25 AM | If the OP had taken to read more than the first paragraph in the article, he would have noticed this:
"Maintaining the status quo in the NHS is not an option. The NHS is not delivering the care that patients need."
What the Lancet says is that the Condemned's bill will destroy our NHS.
Well, it clearly needs sorting out, according to The Lancet!
In what way are these proposals 'catastrophic'? | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 10:53:09 AM |
If the OP had taken to read more than the first paragraph
In what way are these proposals 'catastrophic'?
Take a leaf from the OP's book and read the whole article, you'll find out. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 11:03:17 AM |
Take a leaf from the OP's book and read the whole article, you'll find out.
I'm aware that you've read the first paragraph, given the title of your thread, but nothing in the article describes what form this 'catastrophe' will take.
If is, for instance, in this bit?:
"Despite the huge sums of money pumped into the NHS over the past few years—particularly into the salary budget for staff—translation into benefits for patients is hard to identify. Moreover, the unyielding mountain of bureaucracy that is integral to the NHS stifles innovation, such that it is difficult to design the services needed for local populations."
Can't see it, can you?
OK, how about this bit?;
"Will the changes outlined in the Health and Social Care Bill solve these problems within the NHS and improve care for patients? The truth is that we do not know."
Well, if The Lancet cannot predict the benefits, it also cannot predict any detriments!
It DOES mention something which will affect GPs:
"What we do know is that putting general practitioners (GPs) in charge of commissioning health services for their patients is similar, in some respects, to the fundholding experiment in the 1990s. The principle then was that GPs controlled the budgets to buy the specialist care their patients needed. Fundholding took years to implement, but evidence on short-term or long-term benefits for patients is lacking. In the current Bill, health outcomes, including prevention of premature death, will be the responsibility of the NHS Commissioning Board, which has been asked to publish a business plan and annual reports on progress. That business plan is urgently needed to allow transparent appraisal of how the Board plans to monitor patients' outcomes."
But I cannot see how that would be 'catastrophic'.
So, I give up......can YOU tell me what is so 'catastrophic' about the Bill? | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 12:41:02 PM |
but nothing in the article describes what form this 'catastrophe' will take.
Would this be catastrophic enough?
Quote by David Nicholson, Health Service Chief, in today’s Torygraph:
He said that some hospitals were already trying to reduce overnight stays, but added: “We still have a significant way to go. That means you reduce the bed stock in hospitals. You would save significant resource doing that.”
Think of the even greater saving on resources then with no beds at all…
The trend towards emergency admissions will be reversed, he said.
“Better management of these patients can restrict significantly the number of emergency admissions, for the benefit of the patients and the NHS as a whole, enabling you to reduce your bed stock in acute hospitals.”
How can reducing bed stock be seen as an achievement when we constantly hear about a shortage of beds?
To reduce emergency admissions, chronic patients will be told to monitor and treat their own conditions, he said. The NHS is devising “a comprehensive mechanism to enable them to better manage their own care.”
Danny Kaye took his own appendix out in The Secret Life of Walter Mitty and then went on to be a fighter pilot so there wasn’t really any need for Nye Bevin to introduce the Health Service the following year, 1948 ….. , so shouldn’t be a problem then. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 12:57:29 PM | So, I give up......can YOU tell me what is so 'catastrophic' about the Bill?
Simple thousands more job losses in the NHS, which means the government will have to spend more in benefits so how are they saving ? | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 1:22:07 PM | I would let it break up myself, splinter into pieces.
I mean its not like it ever really worked for me anyway, and I dont think Im the only one who a; never goes to the doctor or hospital and b; is sick of paying for everybody else to go for free.
The care you get is more often than not lack luster at best but only now and again do you get a diamond in the rough.
Bye bye Englands glory. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 1:27:08 PM | you never go to a dentist either or for your eyes testing ? and if the answer is yes and you pay as do all people who work , then when you lose your job you will be thankful for the NHS 
And by the way you will still be paying , but more ,as they intend to put TAX and NI up too :)
Post below me
well done you , not bad for someone at university i take it your paying all your own fees with no help from the state :) | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 1:38:23 PM | I have a private dentist, and my eye tests are private too.
Been there, done that, and I got no help from "the state" what-so-ever.
A ship full of holes is not a ship worth boarding. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 2:03:31 PM | quite funny how a few are knocking the coalition, remember this chap?
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-reform-at-crunch-point-says-blair-474738.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5347246.stm
http://www.number10.gov.uk/history-and-tour/prime-ministers-in-history/tony-blair
http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/public-sector/2008/02/what-officials-promised-blair-1.html
and so on and so on .......  | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 5:03:33 PM | MSG12.
The quotation you made was from The Telegraph, not The Lancet, and referred to something which is already happening BEFORE the Bill in question had been passed.
Think of the even greater saving on resources then with no beds at all…
How can reducing bed stock be seen as an achievement when we constantly hear about a shortage of beds?
The piece you quoted (did you read it?) referred to A&E beds.
Wouldn't it be better if there were fewer A&E admissions?
"chronic patients will be told to monitor and treat their own conditions"
That already happens.
Do you know what a 'chronic' disease is??
I know several people who have chronic diseases who monitor and treat their own condition.
MSG13
Simple thousands more job losses in the NHS, which means the government will have to spend more in benefits so how are they saving ?
Didn't the Labour government recruit from overseas?
What is to stop those recruits from returning home and taking their skills to help their fellow countrymen? | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 5:12:22 PM | What is to stop those recruits from returning home and taking their skills to help their fellow countrymen?
lmfao you really think thats going to happen after they have built a life for themselves in uk and maybe even had children .Dont be silly they will claim benefits like all the rest who are made unemployed | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 5:18:36 PM |
lmfao you really think thats going to happen after they have built a life for themselves in uk and maybe even had children .Dont be silly they will claim benefits like all the rest who are made unemployed
I merely asked a question of them.
It was YOU who thought that they'd all stay to become a burden on the rest of us. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 5:27:29 PM |
I merely asked a question of them.
well i merely answered and theres more chance of them staying here after they have built a life here than going back home ,and if they are a burden it is only because the government is making people a burden on this country | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/1/2011 7:35:01 PM | 2 years of it where subsidised by the government, but even then yes its my money.
Of course I get help from the state... only a very rich man or a fool thinks otherwise, one way or another we all get "help from the state"
Higher tax threshold for students...
But otherwise as far as health care and dentists goes I get no help at all
Dont forget though, the government is also stopping its subsidization of student fees.
Where was your bleeding heart for them?
Or is this because this might one day effect you, where as student fees are a thing of the past for you now so you got nothing to worry about.
Its called looking after number one.
And is all well and good, right up until somebody like me comes along and does it too... and part of me looking after myself means I wont be looking after you!
Its at that point you dont like it, up to then your all fine and dandy.
Well though!
What is to stop those recruits from returning home and taking their skills to help their fellow countrymen?
Mostly their own desire to stay in the UK, we pay our health care workers much more than other countries do, I know for a fact Ukraine, Poland and Russia pay them less, on a level thats about equal to a third...
We pay them to much, and they pay them to little.
Yes, thats right I said to much.
lmfao you really think thats going to happen after they have built a life for themselves in uk and maybe even had children .Dont be silly they will claim benefits like all the rest who are made unemployed
And why not?
You made the bed... they simply fitted a mirror so you can see what it looks like while your laying in it.
well i merely answered and theres more chance of them staying here after they have built a life here than going back home ,and if they are a burden it is only because the government is making people a burden on this country
It depends on what country they are from as to whether or not they can stay, or how long they have been here... any number of things, but yes our social security system is a rather large draw... and why not, after all our sss gives them a wage that is equal to a wage they would get at home, here they get so much they can even afford to send some back home.
And dont forget they can claim for dependants who are not and never have been resident in the UK.
immigration isnt the problem, the problem is people want to all ways to suit themselves all the time.
I mean you said it yourself in msg 15.
Pay now just in case I need it in the future, right?
Well there are those out there now who need it now, and yet do dont like the fact that they take from it.
Or would you like to take it back... or at least change "the tone" or maybe just carry on with the rather racial prejudism about immigrant workers here...
And before you mount up your high horse, your comments are because they are not English
What is to stop those recruits from returning home and taking their skills to help their fellow countrymen?
lmfao you really think thats going to happen after they have built a life for themselves in uk and maybe even had children .Dont be silly they will claim benefits like all the rest who are made unemployed | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/2/2011 12:03:01 AM |
I would let it break up myself, splinter into pieces.
I mean its not like it ever really worked for me anyway, and I dont think Im the only one who a; never goes to the doctor or hospital and b; is sick of paying for everybody else to go for free.
The care you get is more often than not lack luster at best but only now and again do you get a diamond in the rough.
Bye bye Englands glory.
Just because it never worked for you doesn't mean to say that it never worked ever!
Ok so you may not go to your Dr/hospital ever but should you get run over by a bus then you'll be very grateful for the NHS I would imagine. The NHS is there not for the what has been but for the what if. None of us know what may come to pass and it's very comforting to have the safety net that is the NHS should we ever fall from our lofty perch of good health.
I doubt very much if any private health insurance such as the USA has in place would be as reasonable as current NI contributions and I for one would not like to see lower income'd hit harder than they already are.
Your choice of dentist and optician are just that, a choice. There are NHS dentists out there and subsidised eye testing, the fact you choose to pay more is down to you. NHS services are available and are just as adequate.
Of course there are those who abuse the system but that is the case with everything and I'm sure there would be many a fraudulent claim should we have to depend on medical insurances.
The system is flawed, of that there is no doubt but it is the lesser evil when looking at the alternatives. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/2/2011 1:06:40 AM |
MSG12. The quotation you made was from The Telegraph, not The Lancet,
Yes, I know, please see below:
Would this be catastrophic enough?
Quote by David Nicholson, Health Service Chief, in today’s Torygraph:
Or didn’t you recognise the pseudonym?
The piece you quoted (did you read it?) referred to A&E beds.
Yes, I did read it. I was hoping to find some balanced arguments in favour of the proposal, so that I could come to my own conclusion, based on all information available. I thought the Telegraph would have been a likely source.
Wouldn't it be better if there were fewer A&E admissions?
Agreed, it would be better if we had fewer accidents and emergencies, obviously, but accidents by their very nature – ‘An unseen, unplanned event, usually resulting in harm or injury’ – are difficult to control and anticipate.
One of the ways for any organisation to control the overheads and costs is to plan in advance and schedule staff and facilities accordingly. This is how private health care providers manage their budgets, but that is because they are selective about the services they provide and one of the primary strengths and whole purpose of the NHS is that it is available for all eventualities at any time.
No-one would dispute that there are some measures the NHS could apply to reduce overheads – the level of staff absences is unacceptably high and I do know a couple of people who have abused the benefits shamelessly – but we should be fixing what we already have instead of such radical reforms that will completely fracture the very ethos it was founded on. | |
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| The catastrophic break up of the NHS.
Posted: 2/2/2011 3:11:42 AM | [quoteDont forget though, the government is also stopping its subsidization of student fees.
Where was your bleeding heart for them?
Or is this because this might one day effect you, where as student fees are a thing of the past for you now so you got nothing to worry about.
At your age you should be in full time work , and the NHS does not only effect me it effects everyone , and for one i do not believe that you havent used the NHS in the past , so it was there when you needed it , you students complain about fees well to be honest most of you study for yrs and end up doing nothing , just shows you students get too much especially if you can afford to go private , some people in full time work cant even afford to go private
(Or would you like to take it back... or at least change "the tone" or maybe just carry on with the rather racial prejudism about immigrant workers here...
) where was i been racial prejudice about immigrants ? i said .Dont be silly they will claim benefits like all the rest who are made unemployed , thats not being racist thats just stating what they may do , you was the one being racist with your comment about them all going back home now .If you look back on this thread not once did i mention the immigrant workers you fetched them up and i answered ,seems to me your the type of person who screams racism even though you fetched it up , | |
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