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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.      Home login  
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 TDH49
Joined: 8/13/2010
Msg: 1
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.Page 1 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
The mother of a 21-year-old mentally challenged woman in Britain is asking a court for permission to sterilize her daughter so she will not continue getting pregnant. The daughter, who is referred to in court as P to protect her anonymity, already has two young children who are being raised by P’s mother, Mrs. P, who lives with them. However, Mrs. P said she cannot financially support a larger family and that when she took her daughter to a family planning clinic, she refused to get a contraceptive injection (Depo Provera). As Mrs. P described it, if P were to become pregnant again, Mrs. P would put the baby up for adoption. The nature of P’s mental difficulties are not explained by the Guardian, but Mrs. P told the court that P does not seem to understand the gravity of the situation. “I tried to explain that any future babies will go to a new mum and dad,” Mrs. P said. “She doesn’t understand that she won’t ever see them again. She says, ‘I’m the mummy’. She doesn’t understand they will get a new mum.”

Mrs. P continued, “I want the best for my daughter. We are supporting and helping her, bringing up her children and keeping them together as family unit. Obviously we can’t carry on supporting more and more children. She doesn’t see anything wrong in her behavior.” The judge handling the case, however, said that expert evidence was not available to make a judgment and he declined to rule on an “extremely serious and important” issue without it.


Personally I believe everyone should make their own health decisions about having kids or not. On the other hand I can understand totally where this girls mother is coming from, but where does it stop if the court grants her request and sterilize this girl?.
If the mom can get it done, then should any legal gaurdian be able to do the same thing? Even if that legal guardian is the government?. What would the next step be, sterilizing mental ill people before they even start having kids?

Does the mom have the right to do this? Does the mentally challenged girl have any rights under these circumstances?. Do we as a society have the right to stop a mentally challenged person from procreating, even if it's in their best interest(allegedly)?
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 2
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:16:17 PM
There are a lot of unwanted and neglected children that grows up and is a menace to society.

They should sterilize certain people, I dont think Mentally Ill/challenged people should have kids, Im certainly sure they dont understand the ramification of their actions or understand parenthood.

 TDH49
Joined: 8/13/2010
Msg: 3
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:20:32 PM
They should sterilize certain people


Who is going to make the decision on who should procreate and who shouldn't?.


I dont think Mentally Ill/challenged people should have kids, Im certainly sure they dont understand the ramification of their actions or understand parenthood.


Why should being retarded or mentally ill in itself disqualify a person from becoming a parent? Are you saying one gives up their right to parenthood due to being a little slow? Or mentally challenged?.


There are a lot of unwanted and neglected children who grows up and is a menace to society.


True! But I think very few of these kids come from mentally challenged parents. These kids usually come from trailer trash that wind up on Maury or Jerry Springer.


 OOhMeeOhhMy
Joined: 9/17/2007
Msg: 4
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Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:25:01 PM
wow.... not sure what I think about this.... I agree with Iceman.... because a decision like this would have ramifications beyond just this one woman.... there are plenty of people out there that should not be having children and do... and mandatory sterilization or court ordered would violate that persons rights...

However.... if the mother is the girls conservator and has legal rights to make all medical decisions for her.... than she should be able to make this decision..... I am not sure what the daughters developmental deficits are.... but her mother has the right to say "I can't afford to care for anymore children and if the daughter CAN'T take care of them... then the government would need to get involved.....

there are other long term birth control methods that could be considered..... IUD or Implanon are temporary..... but would postpone pregnancy for 3 to 7 years.....
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 5
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:27:02 PM
If the mentally Ill/challenged person lives with the parent, then the parent/guardian assuming if they cant or able to care for the offspring of the mentally ill.

If not then the government.

Motherhood /parenthood should a privileged not a right, just because one is able to procreate that doesn't mean they should.
 OOhMeeOhhMy
Joined: 9/17/2007
Msg: 6
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Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:41:17 PM
I do also have to wonder..... who is/are the baby daddy(s) and where are they in providing care for the children???? are they involved?? provide support??? are they delayed as well?? is this woman in a relationship with the father(s) or was it some random sperm donation???
 UglyFroggieCritter
Joined: 8/21/2010
Msg: 7
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:44:23 PM
I can see how this topic is going to cause a heck of an uproar here on the forums.

Years ago the governments of some countries actually did have the right to sterilize those who were deemed "unfit" i.e. mentally retarded.

A web search brings up many articles, both pro and con.

I would not want to be responsible for making that decision (to sterilize due to mental incapacity) for any one.
 TDH49
Joined: 8/13/2010
Msg: 8
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:44:52 PM

I can't afford to care for anymore children and if the daughter CAN'T take care of them... then the government would need to get involved.


I feel for the mother, and understand her frustration. But we may be going down a very slippery slope here. I just wonder once we get started, where will it all stop?


If not then the government


This is where I would have serious problems with this. I would be much more willing to get behind it if a loved one, who was well informed was making such a decision for the mentally challenged person. But some bureaucrat making such a decision solely based on saying money, would just rub me the wrong way.

Just becuse a person is mentally ill don't automatically mean they will be a bad parent or that they can't take care of their child. And just because a person is not mentally challenged don't make them a good parent. Not everyone is cut out to be parents, some are just cut out to be sperm donor and breeders, period. Regardless of their mental health.
 Cdn_Iceman
Joined: 12/1/2010
Msg: 9
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:53:06 PM
I dont want some bureaucrat that cant find his ass with both hands on a good day making decision either, but if the Parent/guardian of the mentally ill person isn't around, someone has to make the decision.



Just becuse a person is mentally ill don't automatically mean they will be a bad parent or that they can't take care of their child. And just because a person is not mentally challenged don't make them a good parent. Not everyone is cut out to be parents, some are just cut out to be sperm donor and breeders, period. Regardless of their mental health.
Doesn't mean they will be a great parent(s) either.

I know some mentally ill people can live on their own and function, but so what? they are working menial jobs which doesn't require a lot of brain power and working at minimum wage if they are lucky? tell me how two people working at or below minimum wage can with a IQ totaling the amount of Peanuts in a can of planters peanuts get by in life, what kind of life is the child(ren) going to have?

Most them becomes a ward of the state, funded by Tax payers money, tell me is that right? Look...... If they can function without the help of the state fine, but they are far and few between.



Why should being retarded or mentally ill in itself disqualify a person from becoming a parent? Are you saying one gives up their right to parenthood due to being a little slow? Or mentally challenged?.
yes they should be disqualified from having children, most mentally retarded people cannot understand the challenges of parenthood, just because the mentally challenge can tie his or her shoes and brush their teeth and can look both ways before they cross the street doesn't mean they are going to understand the full commitment it takes on being a parent? heck some folks that are considered " normal" and I use that term loosely, dont understand the duties of parenthood.

Second, there is a big difference between someone who is slow vs Mentally retarded, someone that is slow can still function in life, they may have a learning disability but they are able to function normally, many " slow" people have contributed big time to Society.

Tell me when was the last time you saw a Mentally retarded individual run a fortune 500 company, or run a Mutual Funds company, or fix your car, Would you trust your mechanic if you see that he is Mentally retarded, do you really want him to fix your car?

 Butterfly~Effect
Joined: 12/12/2008
Msg: 10
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 10:58:37 PM
If a person is not mentally capable of providing the basic and standard necessities for their own children then yes, they should be sterilized.

But I also feel this way about people that are mentally capable and just lazy or don't give a sh*t about their children....
 daynadaze
Joined: 2/11/2008
Msg: 11
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Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:02:09 PM
This would always be a case-by-case situation, in this case I think the daughter should be sterilized. I don't think this has anything to do with a person's right to use birth control or not, or to have children or not. She is not capable of raising her own children, she doesn't seem to understand the whole sex equals children, or that birth control would stop it. She has to be taken care of by her parents, there's already the problem of who takes care of her if her parents can no longer, adding in grandchildren is just too much. The Judge's decision doesn't make sense. It's not like these parents are being at all unfair. In fact I think the judge's decision is pretty lousy and abusive toward the daughter who can't help how she is. I don't think you need a lot of evidence, I"m sure it's easy to see how well the daughter functions or doesn't function and to rule from there. I do not see where the daughter is being treated badly or railroaded.
 3prong
Joined: 1/3/2010
Msg: 12
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:06:40 PM
I would totally disagree that this should be allowed. There are a lot of supports available to assist mentally challenged people lead very normal lives and in the future this girl may be ready for that.

I feel what would be more appropriate would to make the girl use contraceptives until such a time that she is better prepared. I am guessing the mother doesn't have full medical say over her if the girl is able to refuse this. I think the mother would totally be in the right to ask for this as, the physical and financial repercussions of the girl's actions are falling to the mother.
 esp123
Joined: 11/12/2010
Msg: 13
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:07:17 PM

There are a lot of unwanted and neglected children who grows up and is a menace to society.

I agree.


They should sterilize certain people.


Again, I agree

Lets see…she is 21-year-old mentally challenged, already a mother of 2, her mother takes care for her children, she refuses family planning, don’t have the money for more kids and rejects adoption for future children. If this woman is going to rely on government benefits to feed her future children then the government should have the rights to make a decision to control her selfish behaviour.
 venndiagram
Joined: 10/29/2009
Msg: 14
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:10:07 PM
Thing is- where do we draw the line? What IQ number do we use to decide who gets to have children and who doesnt?

What about the margin of error on IQ tests?


Hopefully in most of these cases, counselling can resolve the situation. If not, then at the very least a capacity hearing with someone appointed to protect the rights of the menatally challenged person.

Sadly, it can be the most intelligent people who severely screw up their children.
 TDH49
Joined: 8/13/2010
Msg: 15
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:29:06 PM
Thing is- where do we draw the line? What IQ number do we use to decide who gets to have children and who doesnt?


Exactly. Is the person making these decisions Stephen Hawking's because if it's someone like him then we are all in a world of trouble.


in this case I think the daughter should be sterilized. I don't think this has anything to do with a person's right to use birth control or not, or to have children or not.


I am confused about something. Why go to the extreme? Why didn't the mother go to court to force her to use birth control? The end result would be the same, but without opening this huge can of worms.


Second, there is a big difference between someone who is slow vs Mentally retarded, someone that is slow can still function in life, they may have a learning disability but they are able to function normally, many " slow" people have contributed big time to Society.


Totally agreed. And this is once again where I have a problem with this. Once we start steralizing people willy nilly, how soon before we get to the "slow" people. You know it's just a matter of time.

 gardenias2
Joined: 1/13/2011
Msg: 16
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:31:02 PM
clean up the genetic pool. world is already grossly overpopulated. it's pretty simple, if someone is receiving any type of aid for being mentally challenged....bingo sterilization.
 UglyFroggieCritter
Joined: 8/21/2010
Msg: 17
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:38:23 PM

clean up the genetic pool....if someone is receiving any type of aid for being mentally challenged....bingo sterilization


My gasted is totally flabbered.

How about those people who are receiving financial aid because of other mental health issues? Medical issues? Worker's compensation?

At what point do "we" draw the line? Who is going to "police" us?
 TDH49
Joined: 8/13/2010
Msg: 18
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:39:50 PM
it's pretty simple, if someone is receiving any type of aid for being mentally challenged....bingo sterilization.


And you can't see anything wrong with this line of thinking? You can't see how this would be viewed by intelligent people as blatant discrimination?


clean up the genetic pool. world is already grossly overpopulated


So your salution to overpopulation is to get rid of the mentally challenged?
 javalover
Joined: 2/9/2011
Msg: 19
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Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:53:35 PM
Having a mental disability does NOT mean there was an issue with the genetics. Being an idiot on the other hand, may actually be a quite fabo reason to have radiation shot thru your genitals til you're shooting blanks.

If the young lady in question is mentally defunct, then how can you say she's being selfish? She may not have that capability.

Getting the Depo shot or an I.U.D. is not the same as sterilization.

Where are the father/s? If the mother is at work all day, where is the daughter? Is she in a facility day group? How is she managing to score boink time?

That's one of our giant problems we as a country - face today. Each case for ANYTHING needs to be tried individually - not a set of written in blood rules, smak down the line for everyone - goose step, goose step! Each one needs to be evaluated on it's own.

Yes, I DO believe in mandatory birthcontrol or sterilization for those individuals deemed necessary.
 3prong
Joined: 1/3/2010
Msg: 20
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/20/2011 11:56:53 PM
This reminded me of an email I got recently.

If you knew a woman who was pregnant, who had 8 kids already,
three who were deaf, two who were blind, one mentally retarded, and
she had syphilis, would you recommend that she have an abortion?

If you would have aborted this child, you would have killed Beethoven.
 OOhMeeOhhMy
Joined: 9/17/2007
Msg: 21
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Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/21/2011 12:02:19 AM
3prong.... my question would have been..... is she caring for them and paying her own bills??? if yes... then have all the kids you want...

like that show 19 kids and counting.... they pay for everything.... no public assistance.... take decent care of their kids..... who am I to stop them....

if my tax dollars are paying your bills..... I should have a say.....
 SweetnessInFlorida
Joined: 6/26/2008
Msg: 22
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/21/2011 2:05:29 AM
I agree with giving the girl birth control, but not sterlilising her.
I dont think its my place to decide who gets sterlisied and who doesnt.
I pay taxes for a lot of things i dont agree on. Its not like the governent is going to poass your tax dollar back to you from the money they save in sterlising people with low iq's.

I get survivors benefits, and nope you have no say in my uterus.
 RubyWaxxx
Joined: 10/23/2010
Msg: 23
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/21/2011 2:26:46 AM
The idea of enforced sterilisation for all women below a certain IQ point smacks way too much of totalitarianism to my liking.
Definitely a case-by-case scenario. As far as the daughter in question, I also don't understand why the mother isn't pushing for Depo or an IUD. But obviously there's more to it than this short article.
 pitufina_77
Joined: 8/13/2009
Msg: 24
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Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/21/2011 2:42:20 AM
Nobody here is talking about the welfare of the children.

Usually, people who are "mentally challenged" have some type of genetic disorder. Are they likely to pass it on to their descendents? Are they likely to have that or other genetic disorders, and how would that affect them?

What is it like for the children to grow without knowing their father? Does the mother behave as a good mother, or is she just the one who gave birth to them, whilst grandma does her job? Is she capable of looking after the kids? Can the mother make educated decisions for them, such as saving accounts, schooling and other provisions?

I'm pretty certain that, should this girl continue to produce kids, who would be given into adoption, a lot of childless couples will be delighted at the increase of the offer available.

But that should not be the issue.

Is this mother capable of being responsible during pregnancy, to not cause further problems to her kids?

It's a difficult moral issue, but it seems the mother is uncapable of understanding the issues regarding responsability and accountability when it comes to bringing kids into this world. She hasn't shown herself capable of making good decisions, so maybe somebody else should make them for her.

What would happen to mother and kids when grandma has a health problem or, by natural law, passes away?

Anybody?
 motown cowgirl
Joined: 6/30/2010
Msg: 25
Mom goes to court to have mentally challenged daughter sterilized.
Posted: 2/21/2011 4:45:41 AM
"non compos mentis" -- not of sound mind. this is why the judge handling the case is correctly asking for expert evidence. he needs to recuse himself from making that kind of a determination independently, while at the same time have the proper evidence to make a competent and well-reasoned decision. if we as a society can stop a mentally challenged person from buying a gun, then why is there any question about stopping them from shooting off their procreative bits at will? babies aren't kittens, ya know. you can't just drown them when they become too numerous or inconvenient. and rights don't exist in a vacuum. those who will not regulate themselves responsibly need to have regulation imposed on them. that's why we have prisons.
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