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Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Is "Classism" Not Just Another Form Of Racism?      Home login  
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 Carte_Blanche
Joined: 7/22/2011
Msg: 1
Is "Classism" Not Just Another Form Of Racism?Page 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Most people are always harking on about the social cancer of "racism, but what about "classism"?

Classism: Prejudice and/or discrimination, either personally or institutionally, against people because of their real or perceived economic status or background. The cultural, institutional and individual set of practices and beliefs that assign value to people according to their socio-economic status, thereby resulting in differential treatment

Classism: Discriminatory beliefs and behaviours based on differences in social class and generally directed against those from economically deprived and/or working-class backgrounds.

Related terms:

Social snobbery: A snob is someone who believes that some people are inherently inferior to him or her for any one of a variety of reasons, including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, taste, beauty, nationality, etc. Often, the form of snobbery reflects the snob's personal attributes. For example, a common snobbery of the affluent is the belief that wealth is either the cause or result of superiority, or both.

"Inverted social snobbery": Inverted snobbery involves looking unfavourably on perceived social elites – effectively the opposite of snobbery. For instance, poorer members of society may see themselves as friendlier, happier, more honest or more moral than richer members of the society, and middle-income members of society may stress their poorer origins. This trend occurs commonly in British politics, in which MPs often say things such as "I grew up on a council estate" to try to prove their common roots.

The UK is not alone in being a class ridden society, but in recent years most people here have tended to focus upon "racism" as the major social cancer blighting British communities.

Is discrimination towards someone or a group of people based upon their (real or perceived) socio-economic status not just as bad?
 Cinderfreakinella
Joined: 2/13/2011
Msg: 2
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/13/2011 9:54:55 AM
can see this thread going down a very slippery slope.

I was reprimanded by a mod for opening my London is Burning thread, and that wasn't even about race it was about the riots in London, although some posters hijacked it and it got pulled.

good luck.
 Carte_Blanche
Joined: 7/22/2011
Msg: 3
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/13/2011 9:59:22 AM
The reason I started this thread was because I stumbled upon this recently published book:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418BHbt0qZL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg

...and thought it might make for an interesting read.
 _Adon_
Joined: 12/22/2010
Msg: 4
view profile
History
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/13/2011 10:22:22 AM
....1sm this ....ism that

Pathetic. What's next Marmiteism.

But I suppose a book was written about another futile subject which tries to explain mankinds insecurity.
 casey0413
Joined: 10/27/2009
Msg: 5
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/13/2011 10:38:09 AM
No, it's just another form of discrimination.
 LukeT77
Joined: 1/12/2009
Msg: 6
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/13/2011 11:13:17 AM
People are born into this world with different resources available to them and varying exposure to education and positive role-models.

Generally, those with better backgrounds and opportunities will end up going to better schools, colleges, universities, networking with other like-minded students and then taking better-paid and more prestigious jobs in society.

They will then have children and bestow all the resources and opportunities they received onto their children to make them the best they can be and the cycle continues.

It works the same way with the poorer folks too.

So, with each new generation the upper classes start their lives with a better footing that those in the lower classes - regardless of their actual potential.

I'm sure there are multitudes of people in the lowest classes who are intelligent and resourceful, but simply haven't had a chance to make their mark in life due to a lack of opportunity. Equally, there are many people from the upper classes who have made it into top professions largely on account of their social and family connections, where many others may be better qualified - as they say "It's not what you know but who you know".

An excellent example of this is George W Bush. How the F*CK did that idiot manage to become the 'Leader of the Free World'!!!!????

Perhaps it had something to do with the influence of his Dad?

It's not impossible for people to rise beyond their beginnings and make their mark on the world, but it's a hell of a lot easier for some people than others!

There's an old saying "Money makes money". Those with capital available and the financial security to be able to take risks without bankrupting themselves will always be more likely to establish themselves as legitimate entrepreneurs.

Amusingly, I heard that some successful African-American Musicians established their record companies using money they made as drug-dealers in their youth! I suppose that's one way of circumventing the system.

I feel for the youth of today. With higher education costing an average of £20-30K per student, many kids without rich parents are going to be put off getting a degree.

Those who do play the educational 'lottery' will become wage-slaves and live out the first years of their working lives paying off these debts instead of saving for a mortgage and contributing to a pension and savings account. And they will be the lucky ones who are actually able to get a first job in this time of record unemployment. The rest will enter onto a rapidly diminishing welfare system whilst accruing interest on their student debts - what a wonderful start in life for a state to impose on it's best and brightest!!!
 Carte_Blanche
Joined: 7/22/2011
Msg: 7
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/13/2011 1:43:20 PM

I'm sure there are multitudes of people in the lowest classes who are intelligent and resourceful, but simply haven't had a chance to make their mark in life due to a lack of opportunity. Equally, there are many people from the upper classes who have made it into top professions largely on account of their social and family connections, where many others may be better qualified - as they say "It's not what you know but who you know".

An excellent example of this is George W Bush. How the F*CK did that idiot manage to become the 'Leader of the Free World'!!!!????


The old concept of "positive role models" comes into play here. Even for kids from working class backgrounds who are bright, and who have worked hard at school and college, then made their way through University and got a degree (now with the added burden of tuition fees and being up to their necks in debt), usually have no role models within their family circle to point them in the right direction or provide personal tips on how to go about choosing and climbing a career ladder.

Being born into privilege certainly has its advantages, and why the American public voted George Dubya into a second term in office is sort of mind boggling, considering that it was no secret that he cheated his way into power in the first instance.


Those who do play the educational 'lottery' will become wage-slaves and live out the first years of their working lives paying off these debts instead of saving for a mortgage and contributing to a pension and savings account. And they will be the lucky ones who are actually able to get a first job in this time of record unemployment. The rest will enter onto a rapidly diminishing welfare system whilst accruing interest on their student debts - what a wonderful start in life for a state to impose on it's best and brightest!!!


The government are so convinced that they are doing the right thing by imposing tuition fees of up to 9 grand a year on students entering higher education that no-one with a dissenting voice seems to be getting through to them. And with the Lib-Dems doing their shameful u-turn on their pre-election education policy NOT to raise tuition fees, we have a situation where kids from less well off social backgrounds have no alternative but to abandon the notion of going to University altogether, or to beg, borrow or steal to do so.

The British government have sent this country back 65 years to the time before the Butler education act when education was the exclusive preserve of a small and privileged minority, and when education was based upon the ability to pay, not a student's academic ability. And when students begin defaulting on their loan repayments and subsequent mortgage repayments (if they ever get that far), then perhaps they'll finally realise that raising student tuition fees might have seemed like a good idea at the time, but in hindsight they actually shot the nation in the foot, and indeed the head.
 LukeT77
Joined: 1/12/2009
Msg: 8
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/13/2011 2:13:58 PM
Interesting and insightful article a friend of mine forwarded to me:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100100708/the-moral-decay-of-our-society-is-as-bad-at-the-top-as-the-bottom/

People in the highest levels of society are as guilty of dodging taxes and costing the average taxpayers money as those in the underclasses - yet they are able to do it legally (if not morally) so they avoid our scrutiny and ire.

Those of us in the middle are being exploited from both extremes of the social class spectrum.
 Carte_Blanche
Joined: 7/22/2011
Msg: 9
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/14/2011 3:12:30 AM
The looting in recent days wasn't carried out exclusively by black underclass either:

"19-year-old Laura Johnson, the daughter of a millionaire, appeared before magistrates charged with stealing £5,000-worth of electronic goods she allegedly looted from a branch of Comet in Charlton, south-east London.

Her father is a businessman with directorships in several companies. He was a director in a company that took over the Daily Sport and Sunday Sport newspapers in 2007.

Supported in court by her well-to-do parents, she pleaded not guilty to five counts of burglary and was granted bail."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025017/LONDON-RIOTS-The-heeled-join-downtrodden-looting-spree.html#ixzz1UzlKUPTG

When politicians commit fraudulence by fiddling the expenses system and receive jail terms for it, and the offspring of the rich and wealthy are caught opportunistically looting goods that they could easily afford to purchase, it certainly doesn't set a very good example to the proletariat who they have traditionally felt it was their responsibility to set an example to.

I've never been one to rant on about moral decay and such, but when you recognise that the culture of ruthless, selfishness and greed instigated by the Tories as far back as Thatcher has taken hold to such an extent as to virtually eliminate any sliver of ethical codes of conduct which may have once existed among the social and political elite, it comes as a bit rich when you hear lofty politicians condemn "robbers and looters", when they themselves and their fellow politicians are also guilty of robbery, albeit it in a less audacious and overt manner.

White collar crime is still crime, and hypocrisy is always guaranteed an outing every time one of these nauseatingly pompous, self righteous, pontificators opens his or her mouth.
 badge73
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 10
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History
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/14/2011 3:22:58 AM

Is discrimination towards someone or a group of people based upon their (real or perceived) socio-economic status not just as bad?


its acceptable because the champagne guardian readers of the pc brigade say so, only have to read a few threads on different forums about those who went to eton who are born with rich parents ..... i mean if they said something of kids being born a different colour or disabled would that be acceptable? me thinks double standards.
 cc7up
Joined: 7/18/2011
Msg: 11
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/14/2011 4:40:56 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JSahEDRjvw



Lighten up will ya.


 shaneyp
Joined: 11/24/2008
Msg: 12
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/14/2011 5:05:08 AM
just watched that,not a fan of the two ronnies,but that was funny,and so right,lighten up-make do with what you have,aspiration is nice,but have reasonable goals
 _Adon_
Joined: 12/22/2010
Msg: 13
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Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/14/2011 5:10:37 AM
White collar crime is still crime, and hypocrisy is always guaranteed an outing every time one of these nauseatingly pompous, self righteous, pontificators opens his or her mouth.
--------------------------------------------------------
White collar crime is not seen or acknowledged as a crime, in the true sense of the word, when compared to the theft of an item such as a packet of paperclips. It could be argued that more theft is committed and more money scrounged, due to white collar fraudulence, than any other crime involving financial gain. People who commit these crimes do not regard themselves as criminals, as they know they will not be deemed as such, by the public. Politicians who try to defend these acts of fraud are able to defend, even though it shows them for what they truly are, because untruths an b---l-s--t is what they about. This type of crime is one of the most vexing even though most people feel that it will not affect them, in any significant way. What many do not seem to realize is that white-collar crimes, such as embezzlement, are affecting us much more in the long run and many times go unnoticed.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 14
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 7:17:34 AM
As long as there are two people on the planet, there will be differences for them to discriminate against each other.

Age-ism, height-ism, sex-ism, rac-ism, class-ism....they are all here to stay, sorry.
 Pud78
Joined: 4/29/2010
Msg: 15
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 7:50:20 AM
People generally get on with people that are like them, have the same backgrounds, aspirations and wants out of life. People mix with like minded people and just because people like to feel comfortable and able to relax so stay within their own social circle, is that classist? And if it is, so what?
 LukeT77
Joined: 1/12/2009
Msg: 16
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 8:20:59 AM

As long as there are two people on the planet, there will be differences for them to discriminate against each other.

Age-ism, height-ism, sex-ism, rac-ism, class-ism....they are all here to stay, sorry.


Sad but true.

There will always be conflict between differing groups, and equality will always represent an enticing theoretical ideal that civilised society can grasp at but never quite reach.
 Carte_Blanche
Joined: 7/22/2011
Msg: 17
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 8:25:18 AM

People generally get on with people that are like them, have the same backgrounds, aspirations and wants out of life. People mix with like minded people and just because people like to feel comfortable and able to relax so stay within their own social circle, is that classist? And if it is, so what?


I don't think it's strictly "classism" per se, it's just "like attracting like". When people of the same race are attracted to eachother and to the inadvertent but consequent exclusion of people of other races, does that make them racist? I don't think so. It's just like you say, people being attracted to others who are similar to themselves.

But "classism" is the intentional and deliberate discrimination against an individual or group of individuals on the basis of perceived socio-economic status, and all of the connotations therein. And it's not necessarily or exclusively top down "social class snobbery". Bottom up "inverted snobbery" also falls under "classism", and is equally unattractive.

Most people are guilty of both snobbery and inverted snobbery, and usually simultaneously, as "class" is a relative concept and based upon social perceptions (which aren't always accurate). Most people subconsciously evaluate other's position in the pecking order. Social variables such as the type of job/career you have, the area and type of house you live in, the clothes you wear, the schools you attended, leisure pursuits, and most importantly "accent" all come into play in shaping social perceptions.

Some people may look down upon others because it provides them with a sense of inherent superiority (bonafide snobbery), whilst others may self defensively act superior and aloof towards those they perceive as belonging to a social elite (inverted snobbery). Social stratification makes hypocrites of us all, and the worst is, unless you consciously "choose" not to compare yourself with others, it's mainly unavoidable.

Make no mistake, it's all a very nasty business, but everyone is guilty of it at some point.
 Pud78
Joined: 4/29/2010
Msg: 18
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 9:08:25 AM

But "classism" is the intentional and deliberate discrimination against an individual or group of individuals on the basis of perceived socio-economic status, and all of the connotations therein. And it's not necessarily or exclusively top down "social class snobbery". Bottom up "inverted snobbery" also falls under "classism", and is equally unattractive.

I could go to an evening reception for very wealthy and succesful people and when they are talking about schools, their stocks and shares and where they should holiday this year I would have no input into their conversations because I am from different world.
The same as I would struggle in a housing estate talking Booze cruises, claiming benefits and whether anybody has any boot leg cigarettes.
Yes I have stereotyped wildly but taking people out of their comfort zone and placing them in unfamilar situations makes them uncomortable. We are animals and we are pack animals and we stick to our packs and do it for own protection and is natural.

Most people are guilty of both snobbery and inverted snobbery, and usually simultaneously, as "class" is a relative concept and based upon social perceptions (which aren't always accurate). Most people subconsciously evaluate other's position in the pecking order. Social variables such as the type of job/career you have, the area and type of house you live in, the clothes you wear, the schools you attended, leisure pursuits, and most importantly "accent" all come into play in shaping social perceptions.

Class though is driven from privellege and opportunity and one of the most deciding factors is money and unless you spread the wealth you'll always have a class system.
The times that classism truely exists in my opinion is when hard work and achievement isn't rewarded because of your background.
A model student that has acheived great A-Level results not having the opportunity to go to Cambridge because they come from Brixton. You are the best candidate for a job but have the wrong school tie.
Making places exclusive to keep certain people out, who cares and why would they want to go there anyway? Someone thinking about what they have and what they have achieved rather than their personality and who they are, well I wouldn't want to talk to them anyway.


Make no mistake, it's all a very nasty business, but everyone is guilty of it at some point.

I think we are guilty of it daily but again so what? What is nasty about it exactly?
 Carte_Blanche
Joined: 7/22/2011
Msg: 19
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 10:07:33 AM

The times that classism truely exists in my opinion is when hard work and achievement isn't rewarded because of your background.
A model student that has acheived great A-Level results not having the opportunity to go to Cambridge because they come from Brixton. You are the best candidate for a job but have the wrong school tie.


As someone said earlier, it's who you know not what you know. You could be the best qualified person for the job, have no criminal history, be mentally and physically healthy, possess all of the required attributes to undertake the job and do it competently, but if the next guy in the line of interviewees has been to the same school as the interviewer, socialises in the same circles, and generally comes form the same sort of social background as the managing director or company owner, there's more than a fair chance that he or she gets favourited during the selection process. Then there's the phenomenon of nepotism where family who already work for the firm favourite other family members seeking work within the company.


I think we are guilty of it daily but again so what? What is nasty about it exactly?


It's nasty because it is "prejudice" and "discrimination", plain and simple. It prevents people from acquiring opportunities which are afforded to others as if it were their birthright . It leads to social exclusion, marginalisation, alienation and hopelessness. We are supposed to be a meritocracy, where you get rewards based upon the amount of effort you put in to achieve those rewards. When bright young people are being excluded from traditionally elitist universities such as Oxford and Cambridge simply because they weren't privileged enough to have been born upper middle class and been to Eaton, and/or because they simply don't have the financial capacity to pay for exorbitant tuition fees, it recreates, reinforces and sustains the social divides and inequalities that most social policy in recent times has been attempting to overcome (until the Tories got back in).

I'm a realist and believe that perfect equality is a utopian dream and essentially unobtainable, as there will always be some degree of inequality. Even in Soviet Russia there were huge inequalities between the proletariat and Communist Party members. In Western 21st century Europe we still don't seem to have the capacity to rise above our base instincts and move beyond our own selfish, individualistic desires, And instead of using the human competitive instinct in a utilitarian manner, we instead take the easy option of sustaining the ways of old.

Traditionalism, elitism, social class snobbery ...they've all been embedded so long and so deeply within the British way of life, within its cultural ethos, and within its social fabric that people don't even know that it's still there.

When something's too close to your face ...

How do we fix it?

Now that's a question.
 minika
Joined: 3/15/2009
Msg: 20
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 10:26:12 AM

Traditionalism, elitism, social class snobbery ...they've all been embedded so long and so deeply within the British way of life, within its cultural ethos, and within its social fabric that people don't even know that it's still there.
It's not just the British way, most countries will have something similar in some form or another.

I remember watching some programme about a bloke who went to stay with a tribe (can't remember where). They also have a class system where the ones who owned livestock had a higher social ranking than those who hunt crocodiles for a living. Due to the draught the ones who had higher social class had to rely on the hunters for food because no rain means no grass for the herds = no milk either. But because they are a small community, they do help each other out.

How do we fix it? I'm not sure we ever can, it's too ingrained in human nature. The majority of us are selfish to some degree or another & like to think ourselves superior in some way.
 _Adon_
Joined: 12/22/2010
Msg: 21
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Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 10:44:12 AM
It's called ' life as we know it' and waffleing on about it isn't going to change anything.
Does ranting on about it, achieve anything?
 LukeT77
Joined: 1/12/2009
Msg: 22
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/15/2011 3:30:42 PM

It's called ' life as we know it' and waffleing on about it isn't going to change anything.
Does ranting on about it, achieve anything?


Well actually yes. I'd say group debate is one of the key mechanisms through which civilised groups of people reason through ideas with one another and form consensus on decisions.

Though it could be argued that we're less likely to change anything ranting about it here on a Dating forum than a group of politicians debating in the House of Commons - but hey there's no harm in discussing our views with others on here and venting a little.

 _Adon_
Joined: 12/22/2010
Msg: 23
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Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/16/2011 6:43:50 AM
No,there's no harm sharing opinions about something, even though they have been going on for centuries. Racism has diminished somewhat but is still going on. Classism,another 'ism, has always been there. A lot of isms have always been there but only now ,relatively speaking, are they spoken about or argued against.
P.C. gone bonkers, for want of a better word.

Discrimination, in this context, will always rear it's ugly head, whether it be where you live, what job you have or anything that can be seen to be or perhaps looked upon as inferior or not as good as.

Does anyone think a politician or politicians can make a law banning racism, classism, sexism.... It won't work. People make their own minds up or are directed into thinking and acting, in a certain way. Could this system of thought ever change in the future?
Who knows? but I would think that the' better than' and 'not as good' scenario will be ever present.

I do think lemon icecream in better than strawberry though.

Oh my god! have I just invented another 'ism?...... Icecreamism!!!!!
 Carte_Blanche
Joined: 7/22/2011
Msg: 24
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/16/2011 7:51:53 AM
I heard that Ice-creamism is deemed the worst of all the "isms", and that in some middle Eastern countries heads and hands are removed under Shariah if you dare intimate that you think that your ice-cream is better than anyone elses.

Whenever I'm eating ice-cream I'm too busy enjoying myself to begin making comparisons.
 Chay47
Joined: 5/28/2011
Msg: 25
Is Classism Not Just Another Form Of Racism?
Posted: 8/16/2011 5:31:27 PM
Au contraire: here's a book for you to hav a good look at classism: Stone , Racism without Races. obviously it's subject matter is british society-where else? lWhen youve had a go at that i don't mind putting a title or two forward on Colonialism and how it has created the human hatred which is no doubt present in Ulster society.
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