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 FyrKrakn
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 1
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?Page 1 of 1    
So way back in the dinosaur age, I did a study for one of my psychology classes which the U requested to use as teaching material and this youth coaching video totally plagerized and I received a 4.0 for this study of 6 creds from a prof who had never given anything higher than a B in his 25 years, and that's my psyche cred, LOL. I still have it somewhere, but I know it's good stuff.... dammit, I know someone will insist that I dig it up and cite material sources, but they are mostly outdated at this point, so shut up. I am just saying this opinion of mine was backed up to my satisfaction, and then some, so I stand by it.

The study was to discover the correlation between a self-esteem valuation from high to low, and the realistic perception of the self.

I found that pushing our youth, or anyone, to have a high self esteem without basing it in reality, was heavily linked to persons who had highly unrealistic perceptions of themselves. As expected, a child who was brow beaten into an extremely low self-esteem, also had unrealistic expectations of life, and a false view of themselves.

The findings were that a person who had a clear view of their resources, had the skills to identify them and acquire or create them, but understood they were currently lacking in adequate life resources, was rarely a person of high self-esteem, and even rarely one of moderately good self-esteem. They were most frequently on the low side of middle range. Oddly, many with very low self-esteem were highly realistic, they simply lacked the skills to identify and acquire/create new resources. Raising their self-esteem was a matter of developing those skills, not pumping them up with compliments.

Those with high-self-esteem yet no resources were often forcing society to suffer them. We often portray stereotypes of the violent and sociopathic and thieving and addicted as having very low self esteem, but the statistics in other studies pointed to the opposite. These violent individuals had a highly inflated and false fantasy of themselves and their value as compared to others. Those who appeared to have low self-esteem, with the false self-perception, put all others (or nearly) as much less worthy than they were, such that their low, was effectively high.

The conclusion was that current (90's) self-esteem pushing without resources onto the youth, would create..... well, the monsters of what we have now....

Fast forward to last night, and I was doing the stumble thing and hit on a psyche study (which I promise to locate again, but haven't yet) that people who are moderately clinically depressed have a more accurate perception of themselves and their lives than do non depressed and reportedly "happy" people. It even found that some *severely* depressed were still highly realistic. Not negative, not pessimistic, their lives sucked, they couldn't do much about it, and they felt really crappy on a daily basis because of it.

I keep saying that I am delusional as a moderately happy person with a deep joy and a lot of confidence in most things, even my own study says this may mean that I'm a little off my rocker.

I am feeling validated in this study because I use something like this in hypnotherapy, I use people's personality traits and behaviors as tools and resources and point out the usefulness of them, whereas their medical therapists are constantly throwing pills at them by defining depression, fear, anxiety, etc., as "wrong", broken, and needing to be fixed.

Question, if you accept the above to be relatively accurate, which would you value more, a realistic perception of yourself and your life which could result in moderate depression and a less than stellar confidence, or... be more like.... well, me?

 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 2
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/28/2011 10:35:55 AM
I couldn't quite follow all of that. It seems to more or less say that depression works for some folks, or isn't all that bad, while for others either depression or mania are problems. There was a lot more in there, but as I said, I couldn't follow it.

Anyway, I personally wish I DID have a more inflated view of my self-worth, for the simple reason that the egotistical JERKS I've known, always do better in life than I have. Simple greed on my part there. The jerks get laid more, and they get paid more. I get the personal satisfaction of living up to my own ideals, but I would probably have a better job at higher pay if I wasn't so damn realistic.
 Molly Maude
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 3
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/28/2011 3:41:48 PM
delusional is definitely the way to go!

I've not studied it like you have but I've lived longer! and it's always been my impression that we're ALL relatively delusional when it comes to evaluating ourselves ...

I know a young woman, very bright, completely capable but THOROUGHLY CONVINCED she can't "do anything" about her life ... she CANNOT get a job, a better education, buy a car, move out of Daddy's house, get married, live her life, etc. she can not ... altho deluded, she's correct ... so that makes her realistic, right? because ... if you think you can't, obviously you can't ... which is realistic ...

flip side, however ... if she THOT she could, she definitely COULD ... so she's delusional ...

it's also been my impression that anyone negative, claims to be "realistic" ...

naw ... delusional is definitely the way to go ... I think I'm happy ... and I think I'll just stay that way!

 WhirledsWithin
Joined: 9/17/2010
Msg: 4
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/28/2011 9:11:49 PM
"The conclusion was that current (90's) self-esteem pushing without resources onto the youth, would create..... well, the monsters of what we have now.... "

Tiger blood!

There's also some interesting information correlating some of this to intelligence... Highly intelligent people tend to under-value themselves. The opposite it true on the other end of the scale...

Other studies back Molly's message, too. Ignorance really is bliss
Folks who find a psychology/theology/spirituality that allows them to feel consistent joy and happiness enjoy better health and longer lives.

As far as therapists throwing pills at folks, that's western medicine and the pharma industry -- don't even get me started.
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 5
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/29/2011 2:52:45 AM
I think what you are saying has a lot of validity. As in the old proverb, " Know thyself ".
Overall, there is no particular emotional state or personality which gives a truly realistic view by itself. Both limitations and potentialities should be weighed together objectively.

Everyone has different skills and different personalities.
Some people are good at some things and they are confident in those things. Other things which they are not good at, they have no right to self confidence and shouldn't be.

All the self esteem in the world wont do much good against an attacking Grizzly Bear.

Our society has a real prejudice in favor of the extroverted outgoing personalities as opposed to introverted types. We should recognize that extroverts can also be flighty, vain, and unreliable little twits, while the introverts are more often dependable, thoughtful and intelligent. Extroverts are not better people.

POWER TO THE INTROVERT !
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 6
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/29/2011 5:39:46 AM
Who said the sane people were the crazy ones?


it comes down to support structures and upbringing.....you'll find alot of suffers of non psychotuc bipolar are well grounded as you describe just didnt have a stable upbring or life as an adult with support structures and varios balancing aspects .
 femaleconnection
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 7
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/29/2011 11:56:21 AM
I find that the more 'aware' we are of the troubles of the world, the more jaded we become. Jaded people are often referred to as depressing.

For me, it is all about how we handle the revelation that the world if not always kind. I acknowledge it, but I dont allow it to control my behaviour.

I would rather spend a few hours discussing word events with someone who can acknowliedge the realities on this planet than someone who is perpetually happy and not willing to see the issues....but I could not live every second of every day worrying about the troubles on the planet that I have little to no chance of changing. Its a balancing act for sure.

I am blessed that I am not predisposed to being depressed-but I can and do get depressed when I let myself think too long on the injustices of the world...so I force myself to snap out of it, because I dont want to waste the time I have here being depressed.
 joemac356
Joined: 9/22/2009
Msg: 8
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/29/2011 7:30:57 PM
A good friend of mine, who is quite educated in psychology, said something to me a few weeks ago that made me laugh: he quoted something I had said to him, apparently many years ago. He said that I'd ventured the opinion that it's very difficult to be aware without being at least a little depressed.
We talked about depression for a bit, and then I asked that we change the subject.

In my own experience, it 's seemed that the more "happy" people I've known, were actually fairly unaware of things. My first wife is a perfect example: always cheerful, upbeat, laughing at anything (and sometimes nothing) and simply put, a dunce. I, on the other hand, have been accused of being hyper-intelligent, not that I buy it, but that's what "others" have said about me.
Last year, I was diagnosed with PTSD, severe clinical depression, acute social anxiety disorder, and recently, it was suspected that I suffer from anhedonia, the inability to feel pleasure.
Other than that, I'm fine.
 JD4Real29
Joined: 3/28/2011
Msg: 9
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/30/2011 8:20:38 AM

Question, if you accept the above to be relatively accurate, which would you value more, a realistic perception of yourself and your life which could result in moderate depression and a less than stellar confidence, or... be more like.... well, me?


I know myself quite well and have no delusions about myself.

And yes I do go through bouts of situational depression. I wallow for a bit, then identify the trigger and do the necessary changes to fix the trigger.

This year I've been going through a huge transition in my life. I've sold my house and moved to a city in which I know nobody. My kids are grown and the dogs are with my parents. Everything familiar is gone from my life, but overall I'm happy with the change.

I'm completely aware of what goes on in and around my life. This gives me the ability to make decisions to better my life in the long run. If I was unaware, I'd be left wondering why I was miserable in my life.
 Meat_Sack
Joined: 8/23/2011
Msg: 10
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/30/2011 9:09:18 AM

depression/low esteem equals realistic view?

You mean depressive realism?

IMO you just have to look at most religious groups or gatherings for evidence of it.


which would you value more, a realistic perception of yourself and your life which could result in moderate depression and a less than stellar confidence, or... be more like.... well, me?

I don't see the benefits of either since we are both on a dating site and both in the forums. How are our social lives different?
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 11
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/31/2011 1:43:58 PM
people who are moderately clinically depressed have a more accurate perception of themselves and their lives than do non depressed and reportedly "happy" people.

Dunno. WHO decides what is accurate and realistic? When I first bought this property and moved here, I was living in my craft booth, and bringing in five gallon jugs of water from Baltimore. And laying out the lines for my foundation. I was cooking on a camping stove, and had a bucket toilet. I was pretty damned pleased with myself that I had zip and with my own getupandgo was building a future. My ex and his new wife visited and were totally horrified (and "guilty" since their union was at least partially why I was here). . . . They immediately offered me a newish mobile home, and were distressed when I turned them down. I went ahead (with a lot of help from friends) and built the house I live in. I learned to lay cinderblock for the composting toilet. I can drive a 12d nail home in four. Still can't do a roof, though. I still don't have running water most of the year, and very primitive plumbing (Mexican drains).

Realistically, I live well below poverty level. And yet. . . I'm happy. I'm healthy. The house is free and clear and the taxes are low. I have friends and neighbors who giveadamn about me. And whom I care about.

Who is anyone else to say that because I'm a pretty steady optimist that I'm wrong? One thing fer sure is that I'll live longer than that depressed realist, lol! And likely longer than the researcher. . . .

 nicefillet
Joined: 7/21/2011
Msg: 12
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/31/2011 4:39:52 PM
Questions that present the world as black or white and force me to choose one or the other make me depressed. Therefore, I am realistically happy at present.
 jmark4
Joined: 7/3/2011
Msg: 13
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 8/31/2011 11:32:45 PM
lol; no offense but you lost me
 FyrKrakn
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 14
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 9/29/2011 10:00:31 AM
I'm sorry, jmark, I realize now that I shouldn't post from my smartphone, the editting is one big FAIL. No offense taken. It was poorly written. Just ignore the bulk of the post and read the title and end question.

I wish I could rewrite the OP.

I ran across a few more studies on the topic. One study pointed to happiness being not only delusional, but a wall to intimacy. I think this may be why two people happy together are like a fortress against the world. No one gets into their little world.

But is delusion a bad thing if it makes one happy? I think if the person is functional and not harming anyone or themselves, happy delusion should be on tap for everyone.

I hit a low point this weekend, it was about a lot of factual realistic and old crap smacking me in the face. Delusion was difficult, and ignoring the facts in order to be content is difficult. Peace of mind is going to require getting on top of all of this.

So, maybe happiness is not what I want right now, just peace of mind and a little balance.
 Kevjohns
Joined: 8/9/2011
Msg: 15
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 9/29/2011 10:14:53 AM
Reality is often a very sad thing. Delusional, if not to the extreme, is better.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 16
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 9/29/2011 10:17:52 AM

which would you value more, a realistic perception of yourself and your life which could result in moderate depression and a less than stellar confidence, or... be more like.... well, me?


I most definately have a realistic perception of myself and have dealt with moderate depression for as long as I can remember. I would choose to be more like you. Hands down. No question about it.
 Molly Maude
Joined: 9/11/2008
Msg: 17
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 9/29/2011 7:34:01 PM
OP: "which would you value more, a realistic perception of yourself and your life which could result in moderate depression and a less than stellar confidence, or ... be more like ... well, me?"


I DO have a realistic perception of myself and my life ... I realize I've lived beyond my prime and that ... IF I DON'T DIE TONIGHT, I'll likely only be getting older ... that I live alone ... my children have spread themselves out in 4 different states ... so I rarely see my grandchildren ... that I have a fixed income with very unlikely chances of getting another job ... that I doubt my own abilities to actually DO another job!!! ... my math skills and typing skills are failing ... that my friends are dying off ... my cousins are dying off ... my younger sister's health is failing ... one daughter is battling cancer ... that I've sailed my way through life based on my family's money, my genuis mental abilities, good work ethic and good looks, three of which are fading ... that I've gone from being absolutely stronger than the average bear to being so weak I have to ask the teen-ager next door to open a jar of pickles ...

AAAWWWWKKKKK ... NOOOOOO ...

no ... delusion is definitely the way to go ... when I get an unexpected bill, I say, "thank God I'm a wealthy woman!" ... when I come to the end of one trail, I just find another ... there's always another friend just beyond the horizon ... and I ALWAYS go to bed thinking that, for SURE, something wonderful is going to happen tomorrow ... something GREAT is right around the corner ... some miracle ... some mystery will unfold ... I'll gain insight to something lovely ...

realistically ... that's probably not happening ... but I've always had a rich fantasy life and I'm not giving that up at this late stage of the game! and ... who knows? something (or someone) wonderful MIGHT just happen tomorrow!

 CulturedSistah19
Joined: 9/12/2011
Msg: 18
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 10/1/2011 1:04:43 PM
I'm not getting some of this but the final question doesn't really address whether one could have a realistic view of their life, if it is not so good, and believe that they can changes their circumstances.

Some of this reminds me somewhat of the studies on "expectations". Take a group of workers, or students and separate them into two group. One group is constantly complimented, encouraged, and rewarded. The other group is berated and criticized. Even though both groups started out the same in terms of education and skill, the group that received the most positive feedback lived up to the expectations.

On another note, I remember attending a work-related positive reinforcement course. Attendants were encouraged to look at life through rose colored glasses. I remember commenting that in order for one to do that, one would have to separate oneself from the realities. I can believe the economy is great, but is that unrealistic? As it is, I do try to maintain positive thinking so that the realities of the times do not have to be my reality and affect me as much.

This study concludes that depressed people see the reality, and rightfully believe there is nothing they can do about it. I disagree that the thinking is not negative and pessimistic. My mother was a financially poor woman by definition, but she didn't know it. She would send food packages to the neighbors, threw parties, raised 7 children, bought her own home, and remarried a business man (although he was killed in robbery at his place of business). If she had bought into the reality of her circumstances she would have never pulled herself out
 FyrKrakn
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 19
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 10/1/2011 6:09:45 PM
Actually, Sistah, everything you just said is exactly what I was talking about.

I'm sure though, that your mother was fully aware of the circumstances, just adept at managing them to the degree that they were not overwhelming as they would be for other. She resources in self-management and relationships that took the weight of the external factors and made them matter lesss than they would to the average person. Knowing she had these resources would be enough to make her circumstances and her view of them into a positive and happy situation instead of a negative and depressing one.
 brandished
Joined: 9/25/2009
Msg: 20
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depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 10/1/2011 7:19:12 PM

Question, if you accept the above to be relatively accurate, which would you value more, a realistic perception of yourself and your life which could result in moderate depression and a less than stellar confidence, or... be more like.... well, me?


None of the above, and with that, I'm not so sure I understand what you're asking, as I don't accept what you say as "relatively accurate"?!

You're only giving us two choices here, and I wouldn't choose either...I live each day as it's being offered...before I go to sleep each night I do a review of the day and make note of where I could have done better?! Depression and a less than stellar confidence doesn't even come into play??

I do believe I am lost in this thread??
 CulturedSistah19
Joined: 9/12/2011
Msg: 21
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 10/1/2011 9:01:26 PM
I agree with with you wrote above, but I think this comment from your original post is what threw me: "The findings were that a person who had a clear view of their resources, had the skills to identify them and acquire or create them, but understood they were currently lacking in adequate life resources, was rarely a person of high self-esteem".

The two options given, knowing the reality and being in low self-esteem and depressed, or living in delusion, and having high-self esteem (or so it reads to me), leaves no room for believing that one can change their circumstances, if I am reading it right. Your response above does allow for acknowledgement of lack of resources and continuing to thrive.

I don't know that I would be comfortable with either option. I have witnessed folks who are deluded and seemingly comfortable in their downward spiral until they hit rock bottom. Living in the reality, and depressed is not a good option either. I would rather be in the reality, try to maintain some level of happiness, and work to change the condition. Hard to change one's condition when one is either deluded, or unhappy and depressed.

Great topic though and provides a lot of food for thought.
 FyrKrakn
Joined: 2/21/2010
Msg: 22
depression/low esteem equals realistic view?
Posted: 10/2/2011 6:36:38 PM
Sistah, note that I followed that finding with this:



Those with high-self-esteem yet no resources were often forcing society to suffer them.


As in the gangbanger's example of shoving himself upon others and making undue demands.

In your mother's example, she showed a more admirable trait of humility, a humblenes that allowed for selfless behavior. For many people, being a caretaker of others can be tiring, and an indicator of a very low self esteem. For those who are caretakers yet also strong willed, they make interdependet demands upon those whom they care for. They care for their children, but demand and ensure that their children do their chores, their homework, behave responsibly and kindly, and grow up to be contributers to society instead of takers. She would have been in the middle range, as in knowing she was capable and deserving of good, but also not believing that she was any better than any other person on the planet, putting her shoes on one foot at a time. Do I have her right?

As neither my study, nor any of the others I read, went into defining that kind of person and their values, nor their opposite, just noting their existence and the placement on the scale, it does leave them out of the two choices.

I came up with the two choices because the one in the most recent study was a polar opposite to my own.
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