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 light-star
Joined: 8/24/2011
Msg: 1
Guns in private hands ?Page 1 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
A friend of mine recently remarked, in passing, that they were expecting a visit from the police to inspect their gun & ammunition storage, as their permits were up for renewal (husband & wife both, apparently, hold permits).
Neither of these have been shooting for a very long time (we are talking years) & I had quite forgotten that they possessed firearms.

Perhaps the time might be approaching where, unless an individual can demonstrate 'valid reason' (i.e, farmer/gamekeeper, etc) for firearm possession, that possession should not be allowed to continue indefinitely.

I wonder quite how many weapons there are lying disused, in private hands, any or all of which have the potential for abuse/theft (not withstanding that they may be currently under lock & key)?



 theoldbill
Joined: 4/21/2008
Msg: 2
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 1:57:09 AM
Guns and firearms should never be held in public hands.

They should only be held by clubs and sporting venues, unless held by a professional in certain fields, such as you mention, gamekeepers.

They should not be allowed to be taken home, or out on their own for shooting but only as part of a club activity or organised commercial activity, such as the glorious 12th, if that is considered by society as an acceptable pastime, and their use should be subject to close supervision at all times.

No private ownership, no certificates, no inspections, no exceptions.
 bambiisnotsingle
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 3
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 2:27:12 AM
im agreeing oldbill i hate guns and gamekeepers i dont like either for obvious reasons
 BobHaro
Joined: 3/3/2011
Msg: 4
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 2:28:37 AM
Oh FFS!!! Look criminals can get hold of guns as easy as you can fart...what are we supposed to stop them with...Harsh words. Some people live in airy fairy land where nothing ever goes wrong and PC plod always catches the crook before they do anything remotely naughty.

In truth if somebody comes for you...what you gonna do? call for PC plod in the (remote) hope he turns up in some kind of timely fashion...or reach for that gun and tell that somebody right where they can go...

Oh sorry no, what gun....you're dead!

Welcome to the real world.


Bob.
 theoldbill
Joined: 4/21/2008
Msg: 5
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 3:07:07 AM
Oh FFS!!! Look criminals can get hold of guns as easy as you can fart...what are we supposed to stop them with...Harsh words. Some people live in airy fairy land where nothing ever goes wrong and PC plod always catches the crook before they do anything remotely naughty.

In truth if somebody comes for you...what you gonna do? call for PC plod in the (remote) hope he turns up in some kind of timely fashion...or reach for that gun and tell that somebody right where they can go...

Oh sorry no, what gun....you're dead!

Welcome to the real world.


Thank you for that. There's me thinking that all was right with the world and all I had to do was to say my prayers at night before going to sleep and all would be well.

Where on earth are you living? Gun crime in the UK remains a low crime method, thankfully. And even the high profile cases of recent years have tended to be confined to certain sections of the community. The fact is that gun crime has been falling, overall.

And I would hate to live in a world where we could all reach for a gun to protect ourselves.

Come to think of it, if the day comes when I am sitting watching Match of the Day with a gun by my side in case someone comes for me (I don't know why, I do not have anything particularly valuable and I only argue now and again with people on POF forums) then I think I would rather be shot dead. That sort of community does not appeal to me and I would rather leave it to PC plod.

But I would also rather that guns and firearms were very very controlled so that criminals getting hold of guns was not as easy as farting. Sorry for the choice of words, just responding to yours.
 alan_dunks_semicolons
Joined: 5/3/2011
Msg: 6
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 3:41:24 AM
Private gun ownership might result in having a means of defence, yes - but then burglars etc who wouldn't otherwise have bothered with a gun would then have to make sure they do. It increases the problem rather than solving it. Besides, I'd rather do a runner and just buy another TV than have a gun fight in my living room.
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 7
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 3:49:12 AM

Oh FFS!!! Look criminals can get hold of guns as easy as you can fart...what are we supposed to stop them with...Harsh words.
Where do you get that conclusion from? Trust me, its not that easy to get a gun...despite whatever world you live in.

These private gun owners? What is the point of being allowed to own a gun at home, when all you do is shoot it at a Firearms Range? Maybe a better idea would be to only be allowed to lease the gun, but it has to remain on site at the Range.
 light-star
Joined: 8/24/2011
Msg: 8
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 3:58:57 AM
Msg 4 - are we now including shooting people as being within the bounds of 'reasonable force' - I can't wait to see what a Crown Court would make of that as a defence!

To me, it matters not whether guns are available on your local street corner, there is still an awful lot of potential for harm gathering dust, unused in homes around the land.....

 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 9
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 4:19:54 AM
This is a bit of a straw man arguement really

The world trafficking in weapons is IMMENSE, in value its not that much smaller than the drugs market and therefore the type of people who want to use guns for nefarious purposes dont have any problems getting hold of them

A couple of years ago I went along as part of the back up for a friend making such a purchase from a local drug dealer of a 9mm automatic pistol with two magazines, 200 rounds of ammunition with a hair trigger, was combat blacked and had an extended and threaded barrel (but the silencers were an additional purchase if needed) and the whole thing still stinking of oil and brand new was £1200 with the serial number removed. The same person had access to cheaper guns either new or second hand as well as ammunition and other items like night sight goggles, thermal imaging cameras, flak jackets military/police grade pepper spray and tazers and assault weapons such as automatic shotguns and semi automatic assault rifles


The world drive to reduce the amount of privately owned guns doesnt actually reduce crime or the amount of gun crime. Infact I think switzerland has one of the highest amounts of private gun ownership levels in the world per capita but one of the lowest amounts of gun related crime too

One of the "dangers" of private gun ownership from a political perspective however is that if a population was ever to become SO pissed off with the way the politicians were doing their job or the political system itself they WOULD have an ability to effect change by force if necessary. But an unarmed population is not only at the whim of armed criminals, but would also be more easily beaten down by armed police or the military if they ever dared to stand up for what was right and just


And THAT is what I think really drives the pressure to stop private gun ownership
 stew001
Joined: 11/28/2011
Msg: 10
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 5:09:07 AM
the one thing most people forget is that guns dont just jump up an kill people by themself.
it is the person with the gut that does the killing.
there is nothing wrong with private gun ownership, as long as the person who holds the firearm knows how to use it and has knowedge of safty handling and storage for it.
 Technopunk
Joined: 11/29/2011
Msg: 11
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 5:14:47 AM
i dont see a problem with private gun ownership as long as its registered properly so that the powers that be know who has what gun. like it or not there's more people that own guns for hunting in this country than you realise, i have 2 cousins who regularly travel to scotland to help cull the growing deer population there and keep it under control.

the biggest problem is the people who have guns that arent registered. these guns arent traceable so can be used for anything or sold to anyone
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 12
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 8:07:52 AM
The world trafficking in weapons is IMMENSE, in value its not that much smaller than the drugs market and therefore the type of people who want to use guns for nefarious purposes dont have any problems getting hold of them
We are talking about UK Gun Laws, not world...therefore, the illicit UK drug market V UK trafficking in weapons is not even a relative comparison.

As for your story about being part of the 'back up' for a friend buying a gun from a drug dealer, I do not believe it for one minute. Buying guns is done similar to buying drugs(in weight), it's done quietly. People buy on trust and meet discreetly, they will not turn up mob handed drawing attention to themselves with a load of guys as back up.

If you were caught in possession of a firearm(unloaded) you would be looking at around 5 years in prison? That drug dealer in that story would be probably looking at double that for what he was selling your friend...sorry but that story sounds very far fetched to me.

BTW why would you go with a 'friend' and knowingly be involved in purchasing a gun? Guns that are sold with ammunition are meant to hurt or even kill people.
 mazeyh
Joined: 7/7/2009
Msg: 13
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 8:38:51 AM
Mike is writing a novel .He's probably got his plot mixed up with real life.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 14
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 8:51:56 AM
Whitey, I think youre quite a bit out of touch

The amount of not just drug dealers but just plain old criminals that own or even carry guns nowadays is a LOT higher than a few years ago. Which is kind of inescapeable from how many shootings occur not done by "international criminals" but by ordinary unemployed nobodies in inner city areas

The idea that guns are sold by "wieght" is also a bit bizarre, they are and always have been sold by the unit price and a gloch 19 or 26 will cost more than a colt 9mm so weight isnt a constituent part of the pricing unless you were weighing them in for scrap

As for the "why" both people are acquaintences and the pistol was being bought for defence rather than anything criminal

But as I said, you can obtain fire arms far more easily than most people realise EVEN in the UK, infact its the replacement ammunition that is harder to purchase than guns themselves from that kind of source

And as for the price PMSL, seriously

That was overpriced not "cheap"

The gun in question retails brand new for around $500 US with two magazines and 100 rounds of fed ammo if you shopped around and thats brand new and legally bought over the counter (with a healthy profit for the shop included and sales tax). Which equates to what in GBP? £350-400?

And its not as if the US is even the cheapest place TO buy guns, locally some of the ex russion states are painfully cheap and not exactly "hot" on tracking or restrictions which is actually where that particular one orgininated from

So even your idea of pricing is so off whack its surreal
 eman265
Joined: 11/20/2011
Msg: 15
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:02:41 AM

Where do you get that conclusion from? Trust me, its not that easy to get a gun...despite whatever world you live in.


Politely agree to disagree. You can get a gun anywhere in London within 24 hours if you have connections or are in a certain age group. Particularly if you live in an estate. With the right skill, you can actually convert replica weapons into working firearms by yourself. Guns have been very easy to smuggle in this country in luggage, lorries and through sea ports for years, it's no wonder there are so many floating around.
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 16
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:05:37 AM
Buying guns is done similar to buying drugs(in weight), it's done quietly. What it means is that it is done the same as buying drugs in weight IE in kilo's rather than small deals. Quietly. I could 'believe' that your mate got a gun for self defence if he was buying a gun that had been used before for a couple of hundred quid. You were basically making out that he was buying an assassins gun off an armourer. Mob handed. PMSL

As for me being out of touch? I think that you will find that I know a considerable amount about crime. In my job it pays to be clued up and know what I am talking about around criminality.


With the right skill, you can actually convert replica weapons into working firearms by yourself.
I think if you were an experienced engineer with a workable tool shop, had the right replica then yes, maybe? Not some school kid that does it in his dinner hour in the school workshop. Someones been watching too much Topboy.
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 17
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:11:17 AM
^^^^ have to agree with the replica thing though, its a bit of an urban myth often claimed by people who have a replica or a decommissioned firearm and just "claim" its been recomissioned

When people have (amaterishly) tries to restore one to working condition they have a very high tendency to either explode or rire eratically due to a lack of barrelling

________________________________________________________

A beretta composite with a 15 round mag and pre threaded barrel would be an "assassins" gun, not a flippin colt with its piddly standard mag and size

infact if you know "sooo much" about guns somebody who "used" a gun regularly and for any type of living would be more inclined to go for a medium pull two stage trigger surely and something that would far more readily fit in a shoulder rig or angle holster

The colt isnt really a carry piece by any stretch of the imagination
 Whitey5.10.74
Joined: 8/9/2009
Msg: 18
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:22:18 AM

such a purchase from a local drug dealer of a 9mm automatic pistol with two magazines, 200 rounds of ammunition with a hair trigger, was combat blacked and had an extended and threaded barrel (but the silencers were an additional purchase if needed) and the whole thing still stinking of oil and brand new was £1200 with the serial number removed.
Sounds like you are biggin this gun up to be an untraceable weapon that can be bought with a silencer, to commit a crime rather that self protection. Never mentioned that it was a Colt...not that I know much about guns, never claimed that I do, other than they kill people.
 Virgo0072
Joined: 1/15/2009
Msg: 19
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:28:31 AM
From my cold dead hands as Mr Heston once put it...
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 20
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:36:34 AM
Not "biggin up" just describing it

The lack of a serial number isnt negotiable which I would guess is to make it harder to track of intercepted, the extended barrel is normally an optional extra on those, not the standard spec. So it reflects on the price as its a third party upgrade in most countries and not a legally permissable one

The choice of black or silver is purely a preference. But it wasnt an option he was given either, that was just what arrived to fit the order not tailor made to a specific spec

Infact I'd recommended a revolver as theyre far more reliable but theyre not as popular so theyre harder to get
 Technopunk
Joined: 11/29/2011
Msg: 21
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 9:53:40 AM
i've owned a few rifles over the years, i think i was 14 when i was given my first air rifle, then at 17 i had a single barrel shot gun, then at about 21 years old a rifle that shot .22 live rounds, i never saw them as criminal or dangerous or that it made me a hard man for owning a gun, they were just tools like my many fishing rods. i don't go shooting any more, not because i think its wrong, i just had to weigh up the moralistic points of hunting for food vs hunting for sport.

it all depends on the person behind the gun i guess and their mentality. Put a hunting rifle in my hands and a pistol into young drug dealers hands and who is the most dangerous? well potentially its me because i can put a bullet through a rabbits head from over a field away with a good telescopic sight, but of course its something i would never do

again it all boils down to unregistered weapons getting into the country and not people like hunters or gamekeepers that have probably used and respected guns nearly all their lives
 light-star
Joined: 8/24/2011
Msg: 22
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 10:03:31 AM
In between all this discussion about 'street' weapons, which are undeniably a huge problem in themselves, my main concern seems to have got a bit lost in the long grass of debate.

I was not overly focused on the possession of guns intended for criminal use, more the thousands of weapons lying around in private hands and thus readily to hand for potential use in neighbour disputes, burglar 'response', domestic violence,and the myriad of other inappropriate possible uses that these things might have.

I do take on board the remarks about the possibility of use during civil uprising - this is, in itself, surely a very good reason for tightening up on the unneeded ownership of guns of all sorts, unless we think that turning Surbiton into a version of downtown Trinidad is a good idea. My friend has informed me that they own five guns, and have not used any of them 'for ages' but thinks they 'might as well keep them, because they are not worth much, and besides, we might get burgled'. - Help!

 badge73
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 23
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 10:14:21 AM
i dont think there are enough guns around to be honest, wonder what life would be if everyone owned them? i dare say for the first couple of years the murder rate would jump but would eventually go down and probably most crime would as well ....

its the old saying a gun does not kill anyone, its the person behind it that does the killing hence cant stand the plastic gangsters who would wave around a piece to "prove how brave they are" which in itself is a bit of a contradiction, same as those who try and rule by fear with them, after all if you think your brave enough to handle a piece then join up and walk down the street in another country where there are people who would not think twice about having it out with you.

its the same with a few who shoot at targets etc who think they are special, targets dont fire back!!
 BobHaro
Joined: 3/3/2011
Msg: 24
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Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 10:44:52 AM
Oh dear some of us are living in a cosseted world methinks. Over my life I've sometimes lived in 'rough' areas where there were shootings, stabbings, muggings...You name it. Ok I was never a target basically because I did not have 'victim' tattooed on my forehead. But for me its not just about guns, never has been...It's just one thing after another taken from us without a 'by your leave' . ooh those 'dangerous' fireworks, Maroons, or shells for example taken from us (even people like me with training in large display fireworks) because some stupid untrained numbnut teacher stuck his head over a 14" mortar tube as it went off...dead obviously...a 300mph+ 14" projectile has that kind of effect even on the terminally stupid.

Doesn't matter how much you ban things people will still die and the world will never be a fluffy place.

One person with a gun could have stopped Derrick Bird in his tracks
One person with a gun could have stopped Michael Ryan in his tracks

One person without a gun just gets shot to fook.

If you want to do something useful, a better target would be immigration...Guns or not...this country is rapidly sinking under the weight of an ever increasing population.


Bob.
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 25
Guns in private hands ?
Posted: 12/8/2011 10:54:41 AM
if you are street savy , you will be able to acquire most illegal goods including hand guns with amo,,

if your firearms licence is up for renewal you will have to demonstrate sufficient reason, for why you need firearms in your procession.. before your licence is renewed...
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