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| | Can culture advance without religion?Page 1 of 39 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39) | Do Atheists Pose a Threat to Morality?
The Psychology of Unbelief: Does atheism threaten morality?
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/experiments-in-philosophy/200806/do-atheists-pose-threat-morality
Submitted, that history and common experience has demonstrated that without some higher standard of behaviour, people become progressively more selfish.
Can western culture advance without religion? | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 11:58:44 AM | without some higher standard of behaviour, people become progressively more selfish.
Can western culture advance without religion?
That standard of behavior OUGHT to have been inculcated by a strong paternal role-model, by children growing up seeing a parent act altruistically to help others, and being happier amongst friends that DO help people instead of JUST acting selfishly...
Western culture has advanced fairly well DESPITE religion, since overzealous fanatics of all types battling each other has been a main cause of war/political strife/mass confusion throughout the world from time immortal... | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 12:49:59 PM | The defining characteristic of any group is a shared/common belief system.
Whether or not something is good or evil. moral or immoral, is also defined by the group, by consensus.
There are many examples where the above ^^^ led to what wold be considered negative outcomes. (genocide, racism, etc.)
So, it is most definitely a circular definition and a circular problem. As what is good, is what WE believe is good.
Arguing religion defines morality, is little more than stating what they believe is moral is moral, because they believe it.
Any "culture" can only advance on shared beliefs, otherwise the time is spent defending the beliefs. Commonality of a group is necessary for the group to advance.
Can western culture advance without common shared beliefs? NO
Should religion be that common belief? ??? Depends on what the group decides.
Must religion be the common belief? Certainly not.
Should morality be that common belief? ??? Depends on what the group decides.
Do Atheists Pose a Threat to Morality? This assumes that religion is the basis of morality. While it is true for some religions, that morality as they defined it was a unifying view, it doesn't mean that atheists have no morality, nor does it mean their view of morality is wrong.
Geez, lot of of effort to break down the real question. What are they trying to hide?
ARE ATHEISTS IMMORAL ?
IF SOMETHING BAD HAPPENS, BLAME IT ON THE ATHEISTS.
The defining characteristic of being human, is a need to belong, a need to share.
When A high percentage has this, they concentrate on other concerns of which advancement is one. If a core need (belong/share) isn't satisfied, attention shifts to that.
Where that shared sense of belonging comes from, is less important than, what that shared sense is. [you may be thinking what if it is bad, :-) ... by defn it can't be bad]
So I guess, the question is how important is religion ... and as I mentioned earlier that is defined by the group. It's a circular question .. it has no answer.
BUT the common belief in current culture is we need to move beyond religion as a unifying set of beliefs. ... That's what the group thinks. :-) | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 1:12:44 PM | My question would be: How can society advance if it's morality is based on an approach that is older than the society itself?
Religion is not morality. Many say that they need one to have the other. I say that is in itself immoral. Morality is subject to the times we live in, not a time and society that no longer exists. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 3:18:41 PM | Seems to me religion is the main obstacle to advancing culture.
As far as morality, religion offers hypocrisy as it's premise.
Do as I say, not as I do! | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 3:18:55 PM | I would respond to your "submission" by asking you to first, show proof that religion is not used by selfish people to take advantage of and be cruel to other people, just as much as any other system of organization.
I submit, as somewhat of an Historian, that since all forms of social organization spring from the same source (people), that all of them will suffer from the same shortcomings.
Therefore, your implication that ONLY religions offer a "higher standard of behaviour[sp]" is a false premise.
I have myself built a very vigorous set of personal standards which constitute a very high level of morality, and I built it entirely without any religious content whatsoever, on purpose. I didn't want to involve either authorities that had unpredictable "magical" qualities in them, or which were subject to the exclusive interpretation of special "interpreters," such as priests, rabbis, wizards, etc. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 4:45:31 PM | | Who was it said "Morality is doing what's right, not matter what you are told but religion is doing what you are told no matter what's right" ? | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 5:24:42 PM | ^ I would agree with Matt
Religion per se (not to be confused with Theism or belief in a higher being), is not necessary for cultural advancement.
What would be necessary is a sense of self-lessness and spirituality that sets the pace for which a culture progresses.
Under communism(where both religion & spirituality was prohibited), there was stagnation in all aspects of society (except militarily). | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 5:46:14 PM | | Religion is holding us back, if anything. Morality doesn't come from religion. Our morality comes from democratic ideals and secular moral philosophy. We don't believe in slavery, or inequality between men and women anymore, and those are things that you will find in religion. People should behave because they want to because, not because they fear punishment in the afterlife. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 7:06:29 PM | Morality from a Jewish Christian background? Rubbish.
The Jewish Old Testament clearly shows that rape murder genocide pillage theft etc etc are all very acceptable.
Here in Ireland the land of Saints and Scholars a Roman Catholic Ethos allowed the Christian Brothers to use extreme violence on children together with rape and masturbation on non consenting children. The same ethos allowed extreme violence and psycholgical torture to be used on teenage girls in the Magdalene laundrys and then there was the widespread rape and sodomy of children as young as infants by scores of priests who could rely on widespread coverups by emminent Bishops and Cardinals.
The Irish population are like rabbits caught in headlights. The crimes are so atrocious that they do virtually nothing and even condone the use of the term "clerical abuse" for the rape and mental torture of innocent children.
Roman Catholic Ethos is clearly demonstrated in the actions of the past Bishop of Galway who refused to look after his own son while organising family planning classes.
Of course there is much much more including the coerced removal of children from teenage women to feed the adoption racket In Ireland which has gone unchallenged.
Luckily I am an atheist who can see things as they really are and am proud to have my own set of morals. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 7:39:53 PM | ^
The Jewish Old Testament clearly shows that rape murder genocide pillage theft etc etc are all very acceptable.
This ^ is as woefully assinine as it can possibly get! Show us where in the above text does it say that all these crimes are "acceptable"! I guess the Bible you were given does not contain the 10 commandments!
Here in Ireland the land of Saints and Scholars a Roman Catholic Ethos allowed the Christian Brothers to use extreme violence on children together with rape and masturbation on non consenting children.
show us where in Catholic doctrine does it allow or condone violence against children as you describe. Please cite chapter & page
The crimes are so atrocious that they do virtually nothing and even condone the use of the term "clerical abuse" for the rape and mental torture of innocent children.
Even if what you allege here is true (and I'm not saying it can't be true); whose fault is it that the perpetrators go unpunished? Is it the Bible/Catholicism or those who are corrupt & wayward practitioners of their religion!
Luckily I am an atheist who can see things as they really are
No, the way you see things is the way you WANT to see them; and not as they really are. If you saw things the way it really is; you'd be able to understand the difference between those that make a mockery out of their faith from those who try to abide by its tenets. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/18/2012 8:35:32 PM | It seems to me that the question has been answered;
France by and large made humanism the state outlook and forswore religion at the Revolution, it may be a great place to visit but hardly a beacon of enlightenment the great mass of humanists would like to think could be developed, (and for what its worth all the things that make France a nice place to visit were created by God, .......(Paris, the Eiffel Tower you can keep them)).
Communism has seen the light of day in every guise imaginable many which had the hallmark of atheism as a state doctrine and we can conclusively state its raging failure,
The lowest common denominator is greed and corruption, common through ALL government but remarkable under Communism.
Many islands and native cultures had simple animism as a guiding force, none have had a lasting impact.
If nothing else you would think that a technically superior method of thinking would produce technically superior weaponry/philosophy/organization, (since none of the non-religious outlooks have gained ascendency perhaps it has!)
In fact a case could be made that any state that suppresses religion is doing so for the express purpose of promoting tyranny, I.E. China, Russia, North Korea, Myanmar, etc all vastly reduced in desirability as a place to live in comparison to those places where religion founded and upheld the society. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 9:23:13 AM | Interesting question when one considers that what the masses of this world call law or religion are actually contrary to just law or true religion. When someone says they hate religion, they are really saying they hate what this atmosphere perceives religion to be. When someone says they hate government, they are saying they hate what this world has created government to be. Just law and genuine religion are not allowed in this world.
If the inhabitants in this atmosphere had a glimpse into the realms where genuine justice and decency were desired, appreciated and upheld, they would look back at that which the masses have identified as religion and government in this universe, with deep contempt, rage and fear. Their intellectual eyes will suddenly be opened, and they will realize that they have been robbed, raped, persecuted and conned and their rightful health, prosperity and happiness has been bewitched from them...with their ignorant approval, financial support...in fact their entire lives from their birth all the way through the final hours of their funeral...from one generation unto the next into infinity.
I do have a question for A-gent, the OP. What culture are you talking about advancing anyway? Culture means many things to many different people. Please elaborate.... | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 9:35:04 AM | Cruscades, the inquisition, drowning/burning witches, burning catholics, burning protestants, papal supremacy, misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, paedophilia, white-supremacism, jihad, fatwas, plane hijacking, suicide bombings...
These are all things that have arisen from (or rather people with fanatical) religious belief. It's difficult to see how it offers a greater moral compass than atheism because it certainly, didn't work for them. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 9:41:40 AM | I've never understood why people equate religion without morality, somehow assuming that if we never had religion we never would have developed morality. The other thing I do not understand is how people wade into these arguments have never considered what morality is.
The OP rests on the assumption that morality is a question of alturism, very well lets compare say the attitude towards the poor from say the deeply religious period of the victorians to the modern day. Hmmm... religion has decreased but alturism has increased... | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 11:34:16 AM |
This ^ is as woefully assinine as it can possibly get! Show us where in the above text does it say that all these crimes are "acceptable"! I guess the Bible you were given does not contain the 10 commandments!
Which of the 10 commandments forbids rape or pedophilia? | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 2:09:34 PM | ^^^^^
If you really want to compare what was given to the hebrews at the time, the ten commandments were just the beginning. There are over 600 "laws", or "commandments" that were laid out. IF you want to speak about biblical laws or commandments, then since it is the hebrew law we are discussing, you should include all of them.
The answer to your qsuestion of:
"Which of the 10 commandments forbids rape or pedophilia?",
is covered by the "Thou shalt not covet they neighbors.............."
If you were to take the time and do the research and see what that totally entailed, you would see that there is a lot more to it than your neighbors ass. In more ways than one.
Paul K | |
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A_Gent
| | Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 18 | |
| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 2:11:24 PM | I in no way suggest that religious folks have a lock on morality. We could all imagine or cite actual examples of virtuous secular minded, and despicable religious people.
However, for a religion based culture, that external morality promotes social cohesion and altruism. Whether the religion is a founded on a genuine supernatural entity we would call “God,” or “God” is a social construct is secondary to the argument. Cultures with religion based morals have flourished.
Yet without an objective external standard of thought and behaviour and some sort of consequence in the hereafter, morality becomes more a matter of social consensus.
Secular states have attempted to negate a necessary belief in religion by replacing it with some form of idealism, usually to inculcate the values of the state into the worldview of the citizens, and to value the well being of the state above the needs of the individual.
For secular states to flourish, however, there seems to be a need to pump a huge amount of energy into maintaining essentially the equivalent of religious zeal in their idealism …
In the US, what was once a cohesive morality based on religious values was supplanted by patriotism made righteous by invoking God, and now, as the west continues to (d)evolve into this postmodern era, religious based morality is becoming increasingly irrelevant… even to the point of being vilified by radical atheists, and what remains is increasingly relativistic.
The ancient Roman Empire is an example. The original empire grew and was sustained by its coherent belief in the state, and the well being of the emperor or republic was superior to the individual. The western empire fell apart from selfish motivation where the well being of the state became secondary and ongoing corruption was not only tolerated, but the norm. When it came to defend itself, there were not citizens enough left to put the well fare of the state above their own selfish needs, and very little left worth fighting for. The Roman Empire, however, did not end. It continued to flourish in the Eastern part of the Mediterranean as we now call the Byzantium Empire, until 1450. The Eastern Empire is characterized by having a common, even state sanctioned religion.
No doubt there were a few nice folks still hanging about in Rome when the Barbarians overran it. But not enough to withstand.
Cultures with religion based morals have flourished. The trouble is… what is to replace religion to provide a cohesive cultural ethical identity to support the further evolution of western culture... or does the west follow the path of the western Romans? | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 2:21:06 PM | [QUOTE] If you were to take the time and do the research and see what that totally entailed, you would see that there is a lot more to it than your neighbors ass [/QUOTE]
600+ laws and none that specifically ban rape or pedophilia, but "Covet" covers it all? That's not what "scholars" define as covet.
Why would I want to live as a pre christian Hebrew? Do you follow ALL 600 plus laws? | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 3:20:01 PM | A_Gent, sorry, but you have wildly oversimplified all of your history-based observations. Your conclusions based on those oversimplifications are therefore without support.
The Roman Empire disintegrated in the West, for a number of reasons, and in spite of being bolstered by a government supported religion. It wasn't just from selfish motivation. Both halves of the Empire had the same state sponsored religion thrust upon them, so that is not a valid reason to claim that the East survived so much longer than the West. If anything, the East lasted longer, because it was not, by chance, under as much outside pressure as the West was during that time. Also, the East had been under a single control for a longer period, was united by a single language (Greek, hence the name Byzantine). Anyway, no need for a rewrite of History that you can look up yourself. Suffice it to say that it wasn't Christianity that kept them going in the East.
History is also packed with examples of states which failed in large part, because they DID try to hold themselves together with religion, or with a single state-sponsored philosophy. When that philosophy failed to answer new challenges of evolving existence, the states failed because they put all their "eggs" in that one basket.
If you want unifying cultural identity, if anything, religion is the LAST place you ought to look. It has failed over and over again, as a prime unifying force, where ever it has been tried.
That isn't because there are built in problems with Religions, and it's not because "religion is bad," or anything else remotely like that. It is instead, because of what religions are NOT. They are NOT, for the most part, designed around helping a people seek out common betterment for each other here on Earth. They are instead based around trying to get everyone to behave the same way, which is a secondary way to try to get around to having people work towards mutual betterment. If ever a religion did succeed in getting everyone to behave exactly the same way, that society would collapse VERY quickly, for the simple reason that we need different people doing DIFFERENT tasks, to get done what needs to be done.
I have been employed by companies which held regular "spirit rallies" to try to get everyone revved up to support the companies goals. It never worked, because in the same way, it was a SECONDARY approach to getting everyone to work together. The companies which succeeded, were the ones who constantly adapted their policies and "philosophies" as needed, for practical reasons, in response to what ever changes occurred in the financial and competitive marketplace, and did so by attending to the details of helping all of their individual employees to get everything done in a coordinated fashion. Their focus was always on see to EVERYONE'S mutual success, and not just one segment of the business. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 3:23:09 PM | Can western culture advance without religion?
I have been thinking about this a lot lately. Sorry if this long and nonsensical.
Eventually it will be possible. But we are not there yet. It is an unreasonable expectation that it could be changed in the near future. It is already occurring naturally.
Also to be pretty specific there should be a distinction between Religion and a concept of God.
Religion has defined God. Instead of embracing knowledge Religion attempts to hold on with a death grip to obscure rationalizations that claim to encompass all forms of reality and an infallible truth.
Then comes science with our attempts to really understand how and why things work the way they do. Religion boxed itself into a corner with infallible truths and then kept redefining God to another place of existence that was soon explained until religion has moved the definition of God into the absolute irrational.
Science ability to finally expose nearly all of the prior 'places god lived' and shown them to have natural explanations. Religion can no longer keep up. If you want to be cool about it you can even look toward the Prophecy of the Popes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy_of_the_Popes and however much stretching was done to force fit things there is only one pope left.
112 Peter the Roman, who will nourish the sheep in many tribulations; when they are finished, the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the dreadful judge will judge his people. The end
It isn't like they aren't expecting it.
The problem of morality isn't a problem with people individually. It is in the governance of people that we lose the plot. The difference that the United States brought to the world governance stage was the sense of unalienable rights given by our creator. If that concept is lost because of a loss of the authoritive concept of god there is no natural establishment for our basic right to liberty in government. For America to say that all men have the right to liberty has no more authority than saying we have the right to slavery which can be granted or taken away. The only way to hold that authority over a government is to have an authority higher than government. The only example I can think of would be another government such as a world authority. But even then, where does that natural right come from... philosophy? You can find a philosophy that says we are slaves...
The problem with atheism isn't a lack of a belief in God. The problem comes from the natural human function that has this place that God fills. It is one thing for the philosophical person to understand that vacancy but in a governing situation with large masses of people that vacancy can become filled with any number of things and already has.
Government is one of the first to fill that void. Irrational expectations of government come from this. The desire to have government fix all problems and right all wrongs lives here.
Random ideologies fill the void next. Belief in any cause as being greater then oneself is just another form of this function... Depending on the cause and impact is how benign or despicable this will be.
Will we advance without religion may not be the right question? We are advancing that way now however we have to look at what that current message is.
1: Humans are not special. We are no more special amongst ourselves or the plants or animals.
2: Life is not special or unique.
3: There is no outside influence or guiding factor of human activities
4: There is no justice outside of life
5: There is no spiritual component to aspire to only chemical and metabolic reactions
6: There is no spiritual component to love only chemical and metabolic reactions.
The possible ideal from this would be humility. Maybe a highly enlightened person could grasp that concept. But what lessons of morality can we learn from this and how many people are highly enlightened.
- How I feel is irrelevant because feelings are just chemical and metabolic reactions
- I only love someone because it feels good and if it feels good to hate that is good also
- I don't kill because it doesn't feel good. If it feels good to kill my feelings are wrong
- I don't steal because it doesn't feel good. If it feels good to steal my feelings are wrong.
- I don't commit adultery because that could make someone else feel bad
- Marriage is an irrelevant construct and if we fall out of love we just separate without guilt
Some may find these examples totally lame and showing ignorance and that religion does nothing to bring about alternatives to these things in any scripture so it is all irrelevant anyway. But that is the point. These things are relevant to holding a society together and they do have their roots in the past religious morality and have evolved out of religion to become what we commonly understand as 'moral' behavior.
Without that authoritive position that 'these' things are beneficial then we have thousands of alternative philosophies to pick from and absolutely no agreement.
This doesn't say we wouldn't advance. It just isn't clear where we would advance to.
What do we do? just spin the wheel and pick Secular Humanism?
We do have to pick though... If you don't accept western religion that is one thing. But that vacuum will be filled by other religions such as Islam. You can't just tell them to go sit in a corner. And you will have no authority over them anyway.
If you wanted a path to the removal of religion you would need to allow Christianity to maintain authority and to continue spreading and leave secular governments with knowledge and science as cornerstones and then allow nature to take its course.
But that isn’t going to happen either. I do agree that the progressive slide toward selfishness is inevitable unless of course we naturally moved away from religion rather then having it exercised out of existence which many want done immediately. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 3:36:48 PM | The trouble is… what is to replace religion to provide a cohesive cultural ethical identity to support the further evolution of western culture...
Now THAT is a good question.. Thesis writers have been working on that for decades...
For my part, I would promote the search for scientifically provable truth, support further education of the masses through new ideas/techniques such as KhanAcademy..
Provide much national recognition and many awards for cutting-edge research that leads us faster to energy independence,
such as strong subsidies for home-solar and electric vehicles/highest tech batteries. 
without an objective external standard of thought and behaviour and some sort of consequence in the hereafter, morality becomes more a matter of social consensus
Rational societal/social laws still apply.. Those that have been legislated or withstood the challenge of time, all the way back to the Code of Hammerabi..
When an individual commits a crime, they need to be punished according to the severity of the crime, and relatively quickly so that others can see those "consequences" right now, not in some imaginary fantasy Hades...  | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 4:00:50 PM | | There is no advancement or hope for this world, at least as the inhabitants would recognize advancement and hope. If you truly care about others you would plead for complete annihilation of this entire universe. We are so ignorant, immature and unwise. Mere children who continue to argue about that which we know so little about. The perpetual death march will continue until this universe is no longer here. I hope for the end of this lunatic asylum called earth every day. | |
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| Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/19/2012 4:25:46 PM | @Aries328
This doesn't say we wouldn't advance. It just isn't clear where we would advance to.
Good post! I think 'religion' has served as something akin to a stabilizer for most cultures for reasons that you cited in that it is perceived to come from a 'higher authority'. Without it, mankind would be left to his own devices, devising his own standards for morality as we saw in the Communist states and Nazi regime. | |
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