|
|
|
|
|
| | George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody! [Closed for Review]Page 1 of 31 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31) | The facts are real. Do you have the right to shoot someone once they are leaving and the threat is no longer there? It isn't a race issue, a "judge's son" issue, or anything other than a man shot a kid after the kid was no longer a threat.
If there is no longer a threat - can this still be considered a perceived threat=self defense?
(if you are not familiar please google as there are so many sites and different views) | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 4:00:15 PM | John Stolz of Vote Vets dot ORG. had a profound post on the subject of these new stand your ground laws.
http://www.votevets.org/news?id=0523
PS. There is another thread under Tryvon Martin on the subject. It is doubtful these threads will last long due to the racial overtones and hijacking. | |
|
| |
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 4:03:23 PM |
It is doubtful these threads will last long due to the racial overtones and hijacking.
No one has mentioned Trayvon's race. Just you, and "outofcontrol" guy constantly mentioning "racists" | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 4:42:11 PM | not under the ROE (Rules of Engagement) usually in place for both US & Cdn. armed forces
but for gun-owners in 22 states, including Florida, with' stand your ground' laws, apparently so?
or we will see what the courts say in this case ? | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 4:56:19 PM |
No one has mentioned Trayvon's race. Just you, and "outofcontrol" guy constantly mentioning "racists"
yes but everyone obv. sees it and knows what it is, no?
a big deal was made by many, of Martin's school suspension while glossing over Zimmerman's charges in 2005 for felony battery of a law enforcement officer & resisting arrest as well as domestic violence charges brought against him by his fiancee... his daddy, the judge, may have helped these go away, though. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 4:59:23 PM | | In New York a man was attacked by 6 people when they left he stabbed one of them. He was acquitted on self defense. This is because he did not feel out of danger. So, is a perceived threat the same as a current threat? | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 5:04:16 PM | ^^ maybe, I suppose people never , ever lie to defend themselves, when charged criminally? LOL
has been controversial in the past when cops shoot unarmed people dead, & claim afterwords that they "felt their life was in danger"_>> an automatic free pass from conviction on any charges for a cop, maybe for citizens now too?
speaking of NYC the Amadou Diallo case where 4 cops unloaded 41 rounds at/into an unarmed man, killing him, all were acquitted because they spouted what their defense attorneys told them to: "I felt my life was in danger"
Bruce Springsteen wrote "41 shots/American Skin" about this case.
in a more recent case cops fired over 5o shots at the unarmed Sean Bell, killing him the night before his wedding
both (coincidentally, I'm totally sure!) were black men shot by all white cops. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 6:00:00 PM |
If there is no longer a threat - can this still be considered a perceived threat=self defense?
That's a good question.
I remember a case study of a trial in an ethics class about a guy, in the military (desk sergeant or something, career behind a desk, never saw combat if that matters), during the Maryland sniper rampage, and rising race tensions.
He heard a window break, thought it was a gun shot. Got his wife and kid and put them in the master bedroom, calmed them down, got dressed, got his gun from a safe, stopped to load it, looked for his keys, went downstairs, went outside, (about 10 minutes after the window break/gunshot sound) got into his car and drove down the street looking for the people that did it because he heard a noise down the block. He saw a car and pulled over, got out, approached the other car with gun drawn.
He saw one guy in the car, and another was doing some kind of random vandalizing like kicking over a sign or peeing on a tree. Told them to halt, one ran off, the one in the car moved his arm, the guy thought he was going for a weapon, shot and killed him.
Military guy got off scott free. The broken window was from a slingshot or BB gun. The guys in the car had nothing to do with the window, no weapons in the car. The military guy was black, the other 2 were white teenagers messing around at like 2 in the morning.
He still considered there to be a threat, even though he left his wife and kid alone in the house and went driving around looking for it. He thought he was in danger. I may not have thought he was in danger, but there was enough going on for him to think he was in danger. To him there was, to a jury he was vindicated in that belief.
I don't know the "facts" of the Zimmerman/Martin case.
I mean
Last weekend, Zimmerman launched a website, www.therealgeorgezimmerman.com, to solicit donations to help pay for his living expenses and his attorneys...the site does not have Zimmerman’s account of what happened the night of the shooting, he does write that “the facts will come to light.”
http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/04/11/report-zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-shooting-wednesday-afternoon/
The facts aren't really out there yet.
They may be real.
But they aren't all available. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 6:33:11 PM | Do you have the right to shoot someone once they are leaving and the threat is no longer there?
Not if that's the case. But isn't the question whether it is?
It isn't a race issue, a "judge's son" issue, or anything other than a man shot a kid after the kid was no longer a threat.
If that's already established fact, why bother trying him?
Zimmerman's charges in 2005 for felony battery of a law enforcement officer & resisting arrest as well as domestic violence charges brought against him by his fiancee.
It's far from clear that evidence would be allowed. Usually it would not be, but there are some exceptions. One would be if Zimmerman called a witness to testify to what a peaceful nature he has. That would open the door for the prosecution to rebut that testimony by asking the witness on cross if he'd heard of these bad acts, or the prosecution might have another witness testify that Zimmerman did not have a peaceful nature.
So, is a perceived threat the same as a current threat?
Say you're legally carrying a concealed pistol, sitting at a bar having a drink. A man near standing near you suddenly breaks a beer bottle, slashes you, screams he's going to kill you, and walks toward the door. Thinking he may be going to his car for a gun, you follow him. He turns, comes at you with the bottle, and you pull out your gun. When he ignores your warning, you shoot him.
True, the original threat ended when he walked away, and you not only didn't give ground--you followed him. But even so, your belief that he was a threat to your life seems reasonable. The man attacked you and then threatened to kill you. That gave you good reason to think he might quickly get some other weapon and do just that. And you only shot when he turned and came at you with the bottle.
The key is usually what a reasonable person in that situation would believe. If you shoot someone, your claim that you feared for your life won't be very convincing if the person you shot couldn't reasonably be considered a serious threat to you. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 7:31:00 PM | I've been following this story since the beginning, and have long ago accepted the general opinion of others...that I lean heavily toward the "locigal" side of arguments...frequently "intellectualizing" to avoid becoming emotionally involved. LOL! I say this as a preamble for those who emotionally argue that everyone ELSE argues emotionally...but never them!
From most accounts, discrediting the editing done by media to sensationalize their spin on the story....from what we all know of "law" in most states, Zimmerman is "responsible" for a death, under questionable circumstances. I thought from the beginning that murder 1 was not reasonable. I can't picture Zimmerman going out looking for someone to murder. What IS easy to picture...is Zimmerman enjoying a sense of entitlement and authority that he did NOT have. I can picture him getting off on bullying and intimidating what he called a "punk". Afterall....he not only had 60-80 lbs on the kid, but he was also armed.
I can also picture a**** teenage boy with hormones raging....who was not about to let ANYONE bully him. I can certainly see where Martin (with that male teenage machoism), may well have ...given Zimmerman the slip...and sneaked around behind him. The QUESTION IS....really....WHICH one of them was actually DEFENDING himself??? I'd have to say that had Martin lived and Zimmerman died, that Martin would have also had an excellent case for claiming to "Stand His Ground"...particularly since Zimmerman had already told police that he was in fact "stalking" this kid. He (Zimmerman) had NOT identified himself as a police officer, security guard, or any other sort of authority, so as far as Martin knew...this guy (Zimmerman) was the one who was "up to no good"..and with good logic... as one or more reports indicate that Zimmerman admits that his gun was clearly visible. Zimmerman was not in a marked security or police vehicle, was NOT wearing a police or security uniform.
For heavens sakes.....I'm not a criminal...but I certainly would NOT pull over for someone who looks like Zimmerman, would NOT open my door if he knocked after dark...and I sure as hell would have been terrified having a strange man with a gun following me around my neighborhood....knowing that I was just innocently walking home from the store.
I certainly don't think that it's out of the line of reason to believe that Martin was the FIRST one of the 2 men who felt that his LIFE was in jeopardy. Now, the fact that that scenario changed when Martin "called Zimmerman's BS" by stalking the stalker....well...what is THAT...but "self defense"??? In any case, all of this will be settled in a court of law by those who get to hear (and judge) the whole story...which most of us are never likely to hear.
MY biggest fear....are these INSANE "Stand Your Ground" laws!!! I am NOT "anti- gun", and in fact I fully support the constitutional RIGHT to "bear arms" and one of the most important freedoms which we have. I do not personally own a fire arm, but if the time ever comes that it looks like that "RIGHT" is going to be taken away from citizens, then I'm sure that I would immediately go out and buy as many as I can afford...with lots of ammo, because I think that it would signal some really bad stuff on the horizon.
BUT...back to the Stand Your Ground laws....this is absolutely ridiculous. YES, we should have the right to defend ourselves....BUT with RIGHTS...comes ACCOUNTABILITY. I am thoroughly shocked and appalled to learn that NOTHING more than the very subjective claim of any mentally unbalanced lunatic...that they FELT threatened...is justification for killing another human being!!! I have a friend (since childhood) who is a paranoid schizophrenic (undiagnosed). She IMAGINES that neighbors are "talking about her", accussing her, looking at her etc...when in FACT, these are ALL nothing more than delusions of a very sick mind. IF Ohio had a "Stand Your Ground" law, this poor demented woman could ...LEGALLY kill an entire neighborhood (my parents live 3 doors down the street) and never be charged with any crime...and likely never get the hospitalization she needs, SOLELY because these laws are so poorly written that the claimant is not required to PROVE any QUANTIFIABLE reason for their "fear of danger". THIS is exactly what Zimmerman seems to be doing! He JUDGED that Martin was "a punk, up to no good"...when, he had NOT seen Martin...take any drugs, buy or sell any drug, did NOT see Martin steal anything, did NOT see Martin peering into anyone's windows...did NOT see Martin stalking any helpless females. ALL that Zimmerman used to JUDGE this boy as "trouble" was.....a hoodie...and a paper bag! OMG!!! Are you kidding me? I've got a dozen hoodies older than Zimmerman and Martin put together, I frequently go for a walk in my neighborhood, and if there were a store within walking distance, I'm sure that once in a while...someone just might see me walking down the street, wearing a hoodie, and carrying a bag. THOSE things alone do NOT make me "suspicious". WHAT was Zimmerman's REASONABLE causes for judging Martin as being "suspicious"????
Martin "went after my gun"??? Well, heck YEAH! IF someone was stalking YOU...bigger than you....an adult male...and you were a 17 yr old boy....wouldn't YOU have tried your best to DEFEND YOURSELF and take HIS gun away from him??? I know I would!...and I'm not a "thug", not a criminal, not a drug addict....I'm just an old woman, but more and more....I find that I would probably have REACTED very much as Martin did...with the exception that at my age, I wouldn't have attempted to take Zimmerman on by surprise. HOWEVER, that attack from behind has already been highly criticized...by investigators on the night of the shooting, who said it didn't sound "consistent" with the rest of Zimmerman's story. It has since been disputed by the girl who was on the phone with Martin who heard Martin ask Zimmerman WHO he was...and WHY he was following him. Zimmerman has no witness who can corroberate his claim that Martin attacked him from behind.
The Martin boy is dead, nothing can bring him back. Zimmerman, I think....is a bully who got in over his head, and wrongfully took an innocent life, not with premeditation, but through highly irresponsible behavior. I'd put $100 on a manslaughter conviction with 5 years of probation...but that still leaves this nation with some really BAD laws that encourage every bully with a grudge, or delusions of grandeur to murder innocent people and get away without any culpability.
Something is seriously wrong with this country, and it's NOT that we lack a "dress code". | |
|
| |
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 8:13:51 PM | I've been sitting back seeing how this turns out, because so far I don't really see what happened. From what's been shown, Zimmerman is in the wrong, but I haven't seen much of any evidence other than the 911 call. I have chased down someone who was trying to break into my car, I didn't shoot them, but I wasn't about to let them get away before the police showed up. Nothing happened, as he was just starting to break into my car, so no real crime it would seem, but he was very unhappy with a woman chasing him down on foot while he cussed and ran. In no way did I have the right to shoot him, he wasn't chasing me, he wasn't breaking into my home, etc., but on the other hand I do believe I have a right to shoot someone breaking into my car. So I'm not against guns or aggressive force when encountering a scumbag thief.
I don't see where young man who was killed was a threat to Zimmerman, not unless there's some big surprise in the making. So I think he was shot in cold blood, for no reason. But I don't know the facts yet. If Zimmerman was just mad and chased this kid because he didn't like the looks of him or some such thing, he committed murder. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 11:01:19 PM |
I have chased down someone who was trying to break into my car, I didn't shoot them, but I wasn't about to let them get away before the police showed up. Nothing happened, as he was just starting to break into my car, so no real crime it would seem, but he was very unhappy with a woman chasing him down on foot while he cussed and ran. In no way did I have the right to shoot him, he wasn't chasing me, he wasn't breaking into my home, etc., but on the other hand I do believe I have a right to shoot someone breaking into my car. So I'm not against guns or aggressive force when encountering a scumbag thief.
I recall a saner time, in Kansas of all places, where a man shot and killed a kid that was vandalizing his car. He was convicted of murder. There once was a time when you could debate the morality of taking a person's life which used to be perceived as having higher value than property. Now that laws are driven by corporations, this one for the NRA who represent gun manufacturers who would love to see any accountability shifted away from them thus avoid being sued for wrongful death suits, this is clearly another example of our laws having been sold off to a high bidder.
The distraction is that we're even really debating the case by trying to measure culpability, when in fact the debate should be about a bad legislating. The state of Florida, legislature, and the Governor should be sued for endangering public safety. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 11:19:20 PM | Unfortunately, in America we are still hung up by descriptors of people, rather than the person themself.
Two guys met, something happened, one is dead. Do we really know anything more than this?
Sure, one guy had a gun, the other one had a bag of Skittles.
Ask yourself this: If both guys were the same color, would this event draw much attention?
I don't think so.
R | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/11/2012 11:37:57 PM | so zimmerman has now been charged with 2nd degree murder.
maybe the story will lose the emotive side and hysteria that has
gone with it.
sky news reported that some are surprised at the severity of the
charge.
all will out hopefully | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/12/2012 12:01:40 AM | Jimmy Vlad..How goes your rules of engagement and gun play on your side of the pond? Hopefully this case will highlight the "Stand your Ground" laws recently passed here that encourage people to shoot first, no matter whose ground they are standing upon, and which release them from liability if the dead person can tell no tales.
If anything good can come of this, it would be a sensible debate on how these laws have gone too far and encouraged vigilanteism. Justifiable homicides have nearly tripled since Florida became the first state here to codifiy this new ALEC/NRA legislation. I've certainly had plenty of opportunities in the past, while caretaker of two sizeable acreages, in dealing with destructive, armed tresspassers. With this new law, it seems to remove a considerable amount of needed restraint we were held to in the past. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/12/2012 12:37:40 AM | The whole thing is ridiculous.
A wannabe cop shot an unarmed kid in a gated community.
I don't know what took so long to arrest Zimmerman, unless it WAS all of the media hype.
Under the law, it appears that the only one who had a right to defend himself was the kid that got shot.
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like Zimmerman is just another idiot that is going to end up costing innocent hardworking taxpayers hundreds of thousands if not millions of dollars.
Not to mention some innocent family their son's life. Zimmerman seems to be mentally ill, but NOT insane. | |
|
| |
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/12/2012 8:17:00 AM | THE FACTS ARE REAL! No they aren't, too many sheeple are believing everything the media & the professional racists are shoving down their throats.
<div class="quote"> Do you have the right to shoot someone once they are leaving and the threat is no longer there?
<div class="quote"> No, but
according to witnesses Zimmerman was leaving & Trayvon approached him. Witnesses also said Trayvon was on
top of Zimmerman beating him in the face & head. It appears, from what witnesses have said, Trayvon was the threat.
<div class="quote"> If there is no longer a threat - ?
<div class="quote"> According to witnesses Trayvon was a threat to Zimmerman.
Hopefully, the judicial system can look at this situation as it occurred & ignore all the bs & hype surrounding it.
Which is highly unlikely, considering the one sided media frenzy. | |
|
| |
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/12/2012 8:42:57 AM | Another one that believes the professional racists & is only looking at one side of the story.
Why did Zimmerman shoot Trayvon......maybe because Trayvon was a threat & Zimmerman was defending himself.
Fact....... Zimmerman did not continue to pursue Trayvon & was walking back to his car when Trayvon approached him.
oops....it appears the post I was referencing has been deleted. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/12/2012 8:55:33 AM |
too many sheeple are believing everything the media & the professional racists are shoving down their throats.
Canadians are brainwashed just as badly: Americans, they firmly believe, have too many guns, and are deeply prejudiced against blacks.
Black on white crime - which exceeds the reverse by an order of magnitude - NEVER makes the international news. | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/12/2012 9:29:48 AM | EP
as we are not a gun culture mainly only the police, farmers and thieves
and some gun club folk have firearms.
knives are a MASSIVE problem in scotland but lately OUR parliament has
introduced a 2 year jail sentence for carrying a knife.
recently in salford 4 geezers broke into a house where a family were the
man of the house took a knife from one of the intruders and stabbed him
to death. no charges were brought and the public were happy about that.
what we have though is the meddlesome european court of human rights
which gives the intruder as many if not more 'rights' than the victim.
over here it would be classed as a self defence although and i kid you not
an intruder can have you charged if you hurt them.
heres our right of selfe defence laws
Self defence
In some situations it might be necessary for you to use force against others in order to protect yourself.
The law says that you can use reasonable force in self-defence or to protect another person in your property. The definition of ‘reasonable force' depends on what the situation is and it may be decided in court after the event.
However, if you feel in danger and you think that using force might help you, then don't be afraid to do so – always think of your own wellbeing first. Crimestoppers crime prevention advice - Self defence
The force that is ‘reasonable' to use depends on the threat you are facing. E.g. the level of force that you can use to defend your life is greater than the force you can use to defend your property
If a criminal complains that you used unreasonable force against them, the police will investigate. This does not necessarily mean that you will face criminal charges if you injure a criminal while defending yourself or your property
In the heat of the moment you may panic, so it may be hard for you to assess the level of danger you face. If charges are brought against you, the courts take account of your circumstances and they will make some allowances for ‘heat of the moment' panic
The courts believe that if you only did what you honestly and instinctively thought necessary to prevent a crime, then that is strong evidence that you used ‘reasonable force'. Remember that courts try to use common sense and take account of what it would be like to be faced by a violent criminal
The law does not allow you to retaliate, for example if you try to punish a criminal who committed a crime against you or your family. Punishing criminals is for the courts to decide and the courts do not accept people taking the law into their own hands
http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/crime-prevention/helping-prevent-crime/-and-property/self-defence
if only courts actually punished criminals we would not take the law into our own hands, and as for court and common sense lol forget that. what does some rich old geezer who has never lived in the run down schemes and estates know about the lives we live?
vvvvvv
watch yourself rich the witch hunters will be on your tail
for heretical thought | |
|
| George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/12/2012 9:32:50 AM | "Do you have the right to shoot someone once they are leaving and the threat is no longer there? "
Do 300 million Americans have the right to make accusations and try this man without knowing the real facts?
I looked up last year's murder rate in America, it was 5.5 per 100,000 population. What percentage of those is pursued so zealously as this (if you want to call this murder)case?
R | |
|
|
|
|
Page
1
of
31 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31)
|
|
Home
login 
