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 lifesinthemail
Joined: 4/8/2012
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Perceptions of colorsPage 1 of 2    (1, 2)
Ok, suppose you see something blue. How do we know that my version of blue (or any other color for that matter) is the same version as yours? Maybe your version of blue is my version of brown or red? We would never know and there's no way I could think of to prove or disprove it. Any ideas?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
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Perceptions of colors
Posted: 4/11/2012 3:58:44 PM
Science has managed to tell a certain amount about who perceives what colors. The colorblindness tests do show a certain amount of relative differences in colors. We can tell that brown is different from blue to you using that sort of test. As far as we know, we can't yet tell whether you have blue and brown reversed in your mind. But I'm only an outside observer in this, science-wise.

I am reasonably confident that since we all share the same basic DNA based vision perception structures, that it is extremely likely that we all see approximately the same colors, though I also know from reading, that different people experience a range of different intensities of colors. Thus I would say that even with my rudimentary knowledge of vision, that I can reasonably deduce to a degree of relative certainty, that we all see "blue" as some form of "blue."
 ProcolHarem
Joined: 8/29/2008
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Posted: 4/11/2012 4:15:42 PM

Maybe your version of blue is my version of brown or red? We would never know and there's no way I could think of to prove or disprove it. Any ideas?


Well if we have a bunch of colored cards and ask you and everyone else to pick the blue one, I'm pretty sure you will not pick red.

I'm partially color blind so most of my clothes are beige. I think...
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
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Posted: 4/11/2012 6:03:54 PM
I know what you are asking and agree there is really no way to know.
But as the biological wiring in our eyes and brains is pretty standard among us,
I tend to think our visual perceptions are standard among us as well.

Not everyone is wired the same though.
Some folks actually feel colors as their normal perception.
Folks who drop acid may experience that as well.
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
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Perceptions of colors
Posted: 4/11/2012 7:15:30 PM
I kind of wonder about this too.
I've had arguments with my ex wife and my mother about "shades of white". To me it's just white but to them it's egg shell or whatever... they have a word called beige (that's light brown) and taupe... taupe, I had to look that up cuz I can never remember what taupe is supposed to be.
Apparently "Taupe is a dark grayish-brown color" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taupe
Then there's mauve, - ah crap, just look at this list - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colors

It's a mess. I only see yellow, green, blue, brown, orange, red, purple, white and black. Coincidentally, only white wasn't available in the original crayola 8 pack... (http://www.crayola.com/canwehelp/contact/faq_view.cfm?id=140)
Probably because the paper was all white in 1903... but if you ask my mom or my ex, they'd call it Ecru or something.
 dlobos_83
Joined: 4/6/2012
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Posted: 4/11/2012 10:50:45 PM
I tend to think that between two individuals of the same race it might be similar, but between two individuals of two different race, there might be some differences.

I remember reading about a tribe that had different names for different shades of green, but they couldn't physically tell the difference between blue and green. I don't know what the policy for external links is here, but I won't risk it, so just google "Do you see what I see". I guess it's the way we evolve.
 Kevin554
Joined: 3/20/2012
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Posted: 4/12/2012 6:56:27 AM
I know exactly what your talking about and although this is debatable, im pretty sure that 'yellow' serves as the anchor to show any differences if there were any. It is a one of a kind hue that solely by it's color and not intensity or shade that it's the brightest color there is, and the quickest to fade away when you dim it. There is no other color that can replace yellow exactly. There is also no eye receptor for the color. so it is a pretty sure thing that is someone is confident that they are looking at yellow, that it is the common color they are percieving. If you see yellow correct, then that automatically means your red and green are correct, leaving only blue. And only the 3 basic colors can be mixed up theoretically, R G B, because those 3 require eye recepters known as cones.
 MrGoodManUK
Joined: 3/27/2012
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Posted: 4/12/2012 8:11:30 AM
The primary colours are actually RYB because G can be made by mixing Y&B.

Although 2 peoples perception of colours cannot be verified as being exactly the same one thing they can both agree on is the wavelength.

625–740 nm — wavelength of red light
565–590 nm — wavelength of yellow light
440–500 nm — wavelength of blue light
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
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Posted: 4/12/2012 8:32:37 AM
The eye may 'see' the spectrum but colour perception takes place in the brain, and is subject to cultural filtering. In other words, the various wavelengths are objectively measurable, but the interpretation/labels are subjective.

A poster above me nailed it when he mentioned the documentary "Do You See What I See"
Unfortunately the whole documentary isn't available online, but here's links to a few extracts and a bit of information about it -
"One of the strangest areas of research is how the language you speak can affect how you experience colour. Horizon travels to meet the Himba tribe from Northern Namibia. They have only five words for colour. Their world of colour seems very different to the one we are familiar with."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b013c8tb
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/do-you-see-what-i-see/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b71rT9fU-I


A cross-cultural study reveals how language shapes color perception.
The research on English children and children in seminomadic Namibian tribes appeared in the December issue of the Journal of Experimental Psychology: General (Vol. 133, No. 4). Cognitive psychologist Akira Miyake, PhD, of the University of Toronto, says that the study "addresses an age-old question: To what extent does language shape or even determine the way we think?"

The study tracked color naming, comprehension and memory in two populations over three years.
Across cultures, the children acquired color terms the same way: They gradually and with some effort moved from an uncategorized organization of color, based on a continuum of perceptual similarity, to structured categories that varied across languages and cultures. Over time, language wielded increasing influence on how children categorized and remembered colors.

In short, the range of stimuli that for Himba speakers comes to be categorized as "serandu" would be categorized in English as red, orange or pink. As another example, Himba children come to use one word, "zoozu," to embrace a variety of dark colors that English speakers would call dark blue, dark green, dark brown, dark purple, dark red or black.

True colors
Not only has no evidence emerged to link the 11 basic English colors to the visual system, but the English-Himba data support the theory that color terms are learned relative to language and culture.

...the authors say that as both Himba and English children started learning their cultures' color terms, the link between color memory and color language increased. Their rapid perceptual divergence once they acquired color terms strongly suggests that cognitive color categories are learned rather than innate, according to the authors.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb05/hues.aspx


This is interesting too -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_relativism


When you look at the following colors, typical native English speaking respondents will describe these two colors as existing with the range of colors we call "blue".
(Dark Blue Image) (Light Blue Image)
If one looks at other languages, this same categorization scheme is not evident. For example, the blues above are distinct color categories in Russian.
Plain or dark blue (siniy) is a distinct color from light blue (goluboy). Each of these color categories has its own associated meanings, invoking a specific thought for many Russians.
http://boingboing.net/2010/06/27/seeing-languages-dif.html




In 1976 Paul Kay, a University of California, Berkeley linguistics professor, led a team of researchers in collecting color terms used by 110 different languages around the world. Reexamining these data in 2006, Delwin Lindsey and Angela Brown of Ohio State University, Columbus discovered that most languages in this study do not make a distinction between green and blue. Further, the closer the homeland of a language group is to the equator the less likely they are to distinguish between green and blue.
http://anthro.palomar.edu/language/language_5.htm



Cross-Cultural Studies of Color Naming, Categorization and Cognition.
http://aris.ss.uci.edu/~kjameson/CrossCultural.html



Anthropology of Color
The field of color categorization has always been intrinsically multi- and inter-disciplinary, since its beginnings in the nineteenth century. The editors have put great effort into bringing together research from anthropology, linguistics, psychology, semiotics, and a variety of other fields, by promoting the exploration of the different but interacting and complementary ways in which these various perspectives model the domain of color experience. By so doing, they significantly promote the emergence of a coherent field of the anthropology of color.
http://benjamins.com/#catalog/books/z.137
 Kevin554
Joined: 3/20/2012
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Posted: 4/12/2012 1:47:08 PM
"The primary colours are actually RYB because G can be made by mixing Y&B.

Although 2 peoples perception of colours cannot be verified as being exactly the same one thing they can both agree on is the wavelength.

625–740 nm — wavelength of red light
565–590 nm — wavelength of yellow light
440–500 nm — wavelength of blue light"

-No, if you have a single fillament that can scale the spectrum of light from infrared to UV, you see a red green and blue. There is a small area on the spectrum where 2 of our eye receptors overlap for the combination of red and green, and this is what makes yellow so bright. Yellow is literally the combination of two photons so to speak instead of one for any other color. Blue receptors and green receptors dont over lap the spectrum, so its just yellow that gets its brightness. And if yellow was a basic color we would be living in one funky world of light, because you cant mix it with blue to make a brighter color. blue + yellow = green is based off of coloring and painting, and not physics or neurology. in painting you get red + green = brown, in physics you get red + green = yellow.

Also if you used mixing yellow with blue to make green , that green will always have red in it, because you need red to make yellow. This makes it NOT a primary color.
 Cerebelum
Joined: 4/2/2012
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Posted: 4/13/2012 2:48:25 PM
May as well as why a chair is called a chair as far as colour defenitions go...its just because someone said so once upon a time (and yes I know a lot about the physics of colours as I have tought physics and maths for over 20 years). As for the preception of colours my eyes perceive slightly different shades of colour from each other (brain correcting for slight astigmatism in left eye so says my optometrist), so I can say with some certainty that, excluding colour blindness, people will see the 'same' colour differently....and by same I mean say 500nm 'blue' may look bluer to some than others...I will just ask my eyes!
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
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Posted: 4/13/2012 7:18:20 PM

And only the 3 basic colors can be mixed up theoretically, R G B, because those 3 require eye recepters known as cones.



The primary colours are actually RYB because G can be made by mixing Y&B


You are both right, but you're talking about different things.

There are two sets of primaries - 'additive' and 'subtractive'.


The Additive Primary colours are Red, Green and Blue.
Additive colours are colours that are associated with emitted light directly from a source before an object reflects the light. These colours are red, green and blue - (RGB). These are the colours we are probably most familiar with in association with television, and computer displays.
If all three of the additive colours were combined together in the form of light, they would produce white.


The Subtractive Primary colours are Red, Yellow and Blue.
Subtractive colours are colours that are associated with reflected light. In this case the subtractive colours are red, yellow and blue (RYB). These are the colours we are probably most familiar with the as the primary colours from school.

These colours are associated with the subtraction of light and used in pigments for making paints, inks, coloured fabrics, and general coloured coatings that we see and use every day.

If all three of the subtractive primary colours were combined together, they would produce black.
http://www.colourtherapyhealing.com/colour/primary_colours.php


A third system, CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black), is most often used for colour printing.

What this discussion ^ ^ ^ kind of shows is that labeling is arbitrary, the colour schemes 'RGB' or 'RYB' might be understood (or not) by people of similar cultural background, and they each (or any scheme) might well be locatable 'objectively' by (agreed) wavelength on the visible spectrum, but that's not the same topic as colour perception, or culturally filtered understanding of the received 'colour'.
 Kevin554
Joined: 3/20/2012
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Posted: 4/13/2012 9:50:43 PM
"A third system, CMYK (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black), is most often used for colour printing.

What this discussion ^ ^ ^ kind of shows is that labeling is arbitrary, the colour schemes 'RGB' or 'RYB' might be understood (or not) by people of similar cultural background, and they each (or any scheme) might well be locatable 'objectively' by (agreed) wavelength on the visible spectrum, but that's not the same topic as colour perception, or culturally filtered understanding of the received 'colour'. "

-CMYK was developed to overcome the true yellow problem caused by an alpha channel and pixelation. Cyan is RGB 0, 255, 255; Magenta is RGB 202, 31, 123; and yellow is RGB 255, 255, 0. As you can see the primary colors were mixed as an ink to form secondary colors (Even though now the color gamut is smaller and odd due to magenta so the final picture actually has a slight hue.). This is so we can avoid the problem with appling green on top of red with additive colors(one color blocking the other), an alpha channel, or red and green placed seperately close together where it becomes a pixelated red/green vs. a true yellow. So now we have a pre-made yellow, avoiding that problem by making the mix of red and green so fine it's invisible and percieved as a true yellow. The only other benifit to CMYK is subtractive coloring by using the white from the paper resulting in saving a lot of ink. And finally I guess to make this relevant to color perception, we can see if 2 people with different backgrounds see the same exact difference between an RGB picture and a CMYK picture due to the odd magenta hue. If additive coloring matches subtractive coloring in ones perception, then that would be a strong indicator of what they are seeing.

"May as well as why a chair is called a chair as far as colour defenitions go...its just because someone said so once upon a time (and yes I know a lot about the physics of colours as I have tought physics and maths for over 20 years). As for the preception of colours my eyes perceive slightly different shades of colour from each other (brain correcting for slight astigmatism in left eye so says my optometrist), so I can say with some certainty that, excluding colour blindness, people will see the 'same' colour differently....and by same I mean say 500nm 'blue' may look bluer to some than others...I will just ask my eyes!"

-The brain does not correct the saturation levels of energy in photoreceptor pigments. If the brain gets two different hues of color, then thats what you see. You can 'get used to it', but the brain has no functional reason to believe that anything it sees needs to be 'corrected' (or you would become prone to hallucinations), it just simply processes information into something understandable sent by the eyes. Even though illusions can lie to the eye, the eye does not lie to the brain. If you close one eye for a while then open it and see two different hues, thats because one eye is less saturated than the other. The brain does not 'correct' anything related to perception, it doesnt have that ability, only to ignore certain things that persist. This is like saying people who go deaf have brains that correct loudness, or that people can develope the ability to change aromas, odors, or tastes of the same things. THOUGH.... when an additive perception like when dealing with colors or aromas lose a basic function like color blindness to a certain color, it can affect the rest of the related additive colors or perceptions. A 500nm blue would look identical to a 550nm blue. The frequency makes no difference in the color we see. Only the saturation of a cone associated with its spectrum of frequencies is what fires of a blue signal. 500nm and 550nm does the same thing. It excites a cone. The cone tells your brain blue, because it has recieved energy. Your cone pigments cant discriminate frequencies. Just what ever the pigment is chemically able to recieve is what it gets. The signals of color that reach the brain from the eyes are the same in people. This has been shown in neurology magazine. Nothing different from having 2 identical camera's hooked up to 2 computers. Both computers ar recieving the same signals. In order to percieve yellow, certain colors must be a certain way. If one camera went blind to a certain color, it would no longer be able to percieve some additive colors.
 RATHLINLIGHTHOUSE
Joined: 2/10/2009
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Posted: 4/16/2012 4:16:17 AM
Consider the clouds. I was looking at one the other day. Cumulo Nimbus. It wa bright white at top of system grey lower down and deep grey black at the bottom. Yet water vapour is colourless. Everything you see is a reflection of light. A cloud is really an optical illusion.
Once I was watching steam coming out of a pipe on a cold day. Initially the first few cms are totally colourless but as the steam forms water vapour it turns white and forms a cloud that drifts away. However it eventually dissemminates into the air and slowly dissappears yet it is still there but we can no longer see it.

Consider an exhaust on a car as it drives away from you. If you could see the exhaust in infra red and in ultra slow motion you would see a pulse of infrared light emerge from the tube and then light up the exhaust cloud like a light house. Since the exhaust is pulsing due to the exhaust of each cylinder it would pulse at c 6000 pulses a minute ( 2 pulses per cycle at 3000rpm) in infrared. That is 100 pulses a second in infrared.

This is exactly the same frequency as the LTI Ultralyte 100 speed detecting laser gun looking for IR returning from the rear number plate of a car.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 15
Perceptions of colors
Posted: 4/16/2012 7:06:01 AM
There are a lot of ways one can measure the properties of color, and a lot of ways to write it out mathematically. I've spent a lot of time researching various color systems, looking for a method as easy to composite as sRGB but allows for more of the sorts of color shifts we witness every day of our lives.

One of the hardest systems to work with happened to come the closest (visually) to how I perceive the world, and how various measuring devices perceive it. It was a system of using multiple color vectors (5 3-component vectors) which compress into a quaternion which could be translated into visible spectrum with a series of 3x3 transform matrix. It was an interesting system to work with which really made me question the textbook definitions on how color functions. Defining the topology of the spectrum became just as arbitrary as applying transform matrices to define the topology of a 3D object. A color blind programmer that took an interest in the project I used to research that system managed to come up with a transform matrix which adjusted parts of the spectrum he had trouble viewing, to the point where colors he perceived as similar gained their own unique identities. The surprising part of viewing the transformed colors that came out of his matrix: it looked strange but still well defined.

It's not so important that we all perceive a given color as a carbon copy in our minds, as long as we can perceive the hues well defined definitions will hold up and we can communicate about color. Having worked with a few color blind people in graphical programming, each with their own unique definition of the spectrum, I learned just how important the relativity of hues can be when trying to communicate things we all take for granted about color.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
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Posted: 4/20/2012 10:11:58 PM
the eye don't do the seeing.

the eye just relates stuff to the brain and the brain figures it out and sends the 'picture' back to the eye so we see.

the brain can and does make mistakes.
 NO_NO
Joined: 4/12/2008
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Posted: 5/10/2012 12:19:19 PM
Kind of off topic, but could anyone tell me what"vision shock" is called?
Like when you are exposed to a very bright ambient (like when you are outiside in the sun) and quickly change the brightness (come inside). Or when you turn off the lights and cannot see a thing, but after a while you can actually see things, even if so slightly.

To be more on topic now, but still questioning... can a room contain the exact same amout of light? To me it sounds implausible... but how about outside on a desert for example? Still feels implausible, but I wonder what you guys have to say about.

So anyways, if my feelings happen to be true, and I know I cannot occupy the same location the other person does, wouldn't this means that even if we all are able to see colors the same way (which I can't see to gasp such thing) we wouldn't see the exact same colors? How about if we all see different, even if so slightly, could one then see the exact same color because of variation of the light they are exposed to?
 RobinMJ
Joined: 5/1/2012
Msg: 18
Perceptions of colors
Posted: 5/10/2012 12:45:53 PM
With respect to relative differences in phenomenology of conscious experiences, I expect the labels we give these things do differ in subtle ways. A certain shade of red looks pink to me, a certain shade of pink you would call red.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
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Posted: 5/10/2012 2:12:37 PM
no_no:

The most technical name I know for it is "flash blind" as to whether or not there is some kind of clinical term I do not know. Basically the scenarios you described are caused by sensory adjustment (in the visual cortex) and optical dilation delays, when adjusting to significant shifts in light intake. In extreme cases, of shifts in light intake, this can cause complete white out, intense pain and disorientation. The military/police actually make quite good use of these simple facts to disorient adversaries, in conjunction with another little set of mundan facts. Have you ever gone on an airplane or drove up a mountain and had your ears pop? Well this is due to significant changes in air pressure in your inner ear. This works through air pressure and thus is more effective in enclosed spaces. In extreme cases, this can cause near to complete, temporary hearing loss, intense pain and disorientation. The weapon is called a "flash bang": flash, for light; bang, for manipulation of air pressure through sound/decibles). The reason why this is such an effective combination is because your balance/orientation are corrdinated in your cerebellum using both visual and audible input. Such a weapon instantaneously cuts off both feeds responsible for balance, renders the adversary temporarily deaf and blind, and doubles up on inflicting pain through extreme sensory overload, and, if used right, is enough to put any man on the floor Rything in agony.

I am sure that that was not exactly what you had in mind, as far as an explanation goes, but you know what the say: write what you know.
 NO_NO
Joined: 4/12/2008
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Posted: 5/10/2012 5:41:50 PM
I was just asking so I could search for and read about it. I have always wonder, and this thread reminded me about.

Thanks for your quick summary, I enjoy reading.
 CressB
Joined: 7/1/2011
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Posted: 5/10/2012 11:20:09 PM
NO_NO:

Glad you enjoyed it.
 chrono1985
Joined: 11/20/2004
Msg: 22
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Posted: 5/10/2012 11:54:57 PM
What your looking for is the dynamic range of a human eye. A result of the iris opening and closing. You can actually see it happen very easily. Go into the bathroom and stand in front of the mirror, stare directly into the reflection of your eyes, turn the light off for 5 to 10 seconds then flip it back on. It's kind of unnerving to watch the first few times. There are a few pitfalls to how the iris in our eyes work, we can adapt to higher luminosity significantly faster than lower luminosity (relative to current average luminosity).

As far as inducing shock with light, that's part of sensory overload. A process where so much new information is flooded into one sense that it ties up most of the brain's processing power. Not at all dissimilar from what happens when you have a process on a computer chewing up 100% of it's processing power, everything becomes so unresponsive that the whole system teeters on the edge of crashing if not comes to a screeching halt.
 purfectmeow
Joined: 4/17/2012
Msg: 23
Perceptions of colors
Posted: 5/11/2012 8:42:57 AM
Did you guys know that women can perceive more shades of red than most men?
I think thats pretty cool. That would account for the pink~
 AddHomonym
Joined: 12/26/2011
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Posted: 5/12/2012 6:51:12 PM
First off the OP sounds like a scene from the Matrix where Mouse is talking about Tasty Wheat.

More to the point, I have always known that I do not "perceive" colours in exactly the same way as those around me. I'm not colour blind and have had my eyes tested to the most exacting standards our society knows about. My eyes are good to go. My brain is a whole other story though.

Any time there is a discussion about identifying a colour, it becomes a sort of contest to see who can convince everyone else that they are correct. Sometimes it comes down to a pedantic question of semantics (graphic artists are the worst for this in my experience). Where one sees blue, another sees green and a third sees teal, etc. Blue, black and brown are a guessing game as often as not.

At this point in life, I no longer argue with people about colours. I see what I see, you see what you see and for the sake of ease of communications, I will always defer to what you see...until you leave anyway.

I suspect that there is so much going on behind our eyes with regard to interpreting visual data, processing it and communicating it to others, that no two people really ever see the exact same thing in the exact same way.
 EharmonySucks77
Joined: 4/20/2012
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Posted: 5/12/2012 8:17:25 PM
This has actually been researched and so far there is no way of knowing. But given the way in which we communicate and the way the world works it is pretty sure that what you see is blue, I see as blue. The light that hits it doesn't change depending on who sees it, so it would have to be something within your physical make up. So far there hasn't been any deviation from the norm to suggest this.
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