|
|
|
|
|
| | Justifiable Homicide?Page 1 of 4 (1, 2, 3, 4) |
Father Allegedly Kills Man Who Molested His Daughter, Texas Cops Say
Sheriff's deputies in Texas won't file charges against a father who they say beat an acquaintance to death after allegedly catching him sexually abusing the man's 4-year-old daughter.
During a social gathering on Saturday, the girl went inside the family's home in Shiner while other members of the family were tending to horses outside, CNN reported
The father caught a 47-year-old man -- with whom he was casually acquainted -- attempting to molest his daughter, Lavaca County Sheriff Micah Harmon told the Victoria Advocate. The father then allegedly punched the man in the head until he died, Harmon reported.
The father and daughter weren't named to protect the identity of the 4-year-old girl. She was described as "ok, besides the obvious mental trauma" of the incident, Harmon said.
The alleged abuser was found dead at the scene. His name wasn't released pending the announcement of his death to his family.
The sheriff's office will defer to a grand jury to decide whether charges will be brought against the father.
"You have a right to defend your daughter," he told CNN. "[The girl's father] acted in defense of his third person. Once the investigation is completed we will submit it to the district attorney who then submits it to the grand jury, who will decide if they will indict him."
The father was reportedly "very remorseful" about the death and did not know the alleged abuser would die of his injuries. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/11/father-kills-man-who-sexually-abused-daughter-texas_n_1587724.html
While I am totally against vigilantism, I feel pretty sympathetic toward this father. I don’t think he should go to jail, though he did kill someone.
What should his punishment be or should he go unpunished? | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:37:21 AM | Well, it is Texas..... lol
Good question. I don't know if it could be called justified, but I could call it pretty darn forgiveable, given the circumstances, because I'd probably have done the same. I think it could definitely be called an act of rage and passion.
I can see this made into an episode of Law & Order SVU. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:41:53 AM |
Good question. I don't know if it could be called justified, but I could call it pretty darn forgiveable, given the circumstances, because I'd probably have done the same. I think it could definitely be called an act of rage and passion. That's how I feel, that I'd probably do the same as this man did--rage, a crime of passion. If he is indicted, it would probably be some form of manslaughter. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:49:38 AM | | Due to the fact that the father allegedly caught the other man "in the act" of abusing his daughter, I agree that he was justified in stopping that action. The fact that the man died from the injuries sustained does not bode well for the father. However, I think he should be given every reasonable benefit of the doubt due to what had to be a very emotional state he was in. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 9:09:23 AM | I feel pretty sympathetic toward this father. I don’t think he should go to jail, though he did kill someone.
What should his punishment be or should he go unpunished?
None of us were there as witnesses or to see the evidence.
The amount of and duration of force used was apparently very excessive, and since the only other "witness" was four,
I feel that man should be indicted and may be convicted of manslaughter with about 1-3 years in jail.
Flying into a rage and killing someone unarmed and not at risk of anyone's life is a crime and no circumstances can be allowed to justify killing another that way.
If one person is allowed to get a pass from jail for that, then others may see that as a way to kill someone they just don't like and claim the dead person was "molesting" a child.. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 9:45:22 AM | Completely justifiable. That man did what MOST parents would do by protecting their children even if the assaliant did die.
I'm not a parent, but I do have young nieces and nephews that are children. | |
|
| |
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 10:38:07 AM | | If he did it on purpose, thinking and calculating the outcome it is homicide. If he did it defending his child is self defense and might and only might be involuntarily manslaughter. He did it with his own hands not a weapon so he should not be charged for homicide. Most People understand a father. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 10:51:55 AM | | dang right it was justifable..............i'd do my best to do the same thing to someone caught molesting ANY child | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 11:30:53 AM | I don't know how anyone can make this call without knowing all the relevant facts in detail. That includes the details of how self-defense works under Texas' criminal laws. There have been lots of cases down through the years where a criminal defendant was guilty as sin, in moral terms, but was such a sympathetic figure the jury wouldn't convict him.
This is something like a case in Jamestown, California years ago. The mother of a boy who had been molested shot and killed the man who did it right in the courthouse, when he made the mistake of smirking at her. I don't remember what happened to her, but I don't think she was punished very severely. The boy later became a hulking thug and committed some kind of violent crime himself, I think. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 1:45:37 PM | No he should not go to jail
but he should loose his job
police have to held to a higher standard then civilians,no society can have police killing people! | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 2:20:36 PM |
While I am totally against vigilantism, I feel pretty sympathetic toward this father. I don’t think he should go to jail, though he did kill someone.
What should his punishment be or should he go unpunished?
To me the lowest form of criminal is the pedophile/killer of children, etc. Good riddance. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 4:13:55 PM | no jail, this is not a real crime, it is a very normal reaction
but, police have to have self control, so he should only loose his job
cops, can't be allowed to just kill people, the whole justice system would fall apart! | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 4:59:27 PM | Want to Travel, who said the father was a policeman? I do not see that anywhere.
Yes, it is justifiable. Wouldn't you do the same for your daughter or any child? If not, I am sorry you have children.
YES, it IS Texas and THANK GOD because some other state would have this man in prison for life or on death row.
I have always appreciated Texas law and that is no light statement considering I am not fond of most policemen personally.
I was born and raised in Texas and spent most of my life there and when I was in school and in several of my jobs as an adult, Police would come in for special meetings for women and tell us how to handle an attacker and what to do. There was, not sure about now, a program which funded police to do this, in existence for many years.
We were told, among many other things, that if we are attacked or our home is broken into and we kill the man/men and lets say he was walking out the door and you shot him outside of the house, to drag him in, no matter that it can be proved you drug him, drag him in anyway. We would be told many things to help us in court.
The whole point is to keep women abusers at a low count, because it is not tolerated in Texas, unlike other states, where whether you are aware of it or not, most have very high numbers of abusing women and children and law enforcement turns it's back. Texas is not that kind of state.
SS | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 5:22:29 PM | | I would think because it was a father protecting his own minor child in his own home........I'd darn sure hope so! I can't honestly see a jury sending this father to prison. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 5:31:02 PM | While I would also find this heinous. I still do not think, it sends a positive message. Killing another human being, no matter how low that person maybe, is probably not a great idea to embrace. That is why we have courts and the law, to deal with meting out punishment. I can foresee this leading to problems at some point in time. When case law can be cited, as an example of a defense, who knows where that may lead..
Case in point:
"We were told, among other things, that if we are attacked or our home is broken into and we kill the man/men and lets say he was walking out the door and you shot him outside of the house, to drag him in, no matter that it can be proved you drug him, drag him in anyway. We would be told many things to help us in court."
I've always said Texas is more than a little crazy, to me this post proves that! So what you have said is that Texas lawmen, don't uphold the law, but demonstrate ways to obfuscate it. In stead of investigating, they will merely accept that you took advantage of their tips, on how to violate the law, to get off.
What happens when a man visits a woman, and tells her the relationship is over? She doesn't want to hear it, so she shoots him in the back, and drags him back in, and says he wanted to attack her. She for her part cites the training and instruction that the police gave her, as part of her defense. Not so far fetched as we have seen, many times in many cases.
When we reduce law, to a vigilante type of justice, we are no better than the animals, that should be convicted of crimes like this. I don't doubt, he deserved a beating and worse, but death at the hands of someone, strikes me as over the top.
IMO | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 5:41:50 PM |
When we reduce law, to a vigilante type of justice, we are no better than the animals, that should be convicted of crimes like this. I don't doubt, he deserved a beating and worse, but death at the hands of someone, strikes me as over the top.
Had this been my daughter in my house they would have been scraping brain matter off my walls. The raging judge handgun makes quite a mess when you shoot someone in the head.
This is not vigilante justice but a case of a father protecting his child and his home.
Just one less child molester to house and feed..........I hope he burns in HELL! | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 6:15:01 PM | Amen, I am with you Cap_N_mORGAN
I am sick to death of paying for prisoners to have better benefits than I do because we have so many soft on crime liberals. Yeah, why can't we send all of these deviants to these liberals to perpetrate their crimes? It is only fair. Liberals don't want to make the punishment fit the crime and feel they should get off light and we don't want the evil miscreants in society spreading their genes, so the liberals should get all of their dirty deeds perpetrated against them and see how they like it.
It used to be in Texas that all criminals had to earn their living, just like on the outside, now so many liberals have creeped in that we non-criminal, upstanding citizens have to pay millions of dollars per criminal to take care of the SoB's that are raping us and killing our children.
No matter how you slice it, it is wrong and these criminals, when caught in the act, should die immediately, not cost us millions. This father is a hero! We need millions more like him.
SS | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 6:31:26 PM | My questions would revolve around that which is in the best interests of the child.
attempting to molest his daughter
I find this significant.
On the one hand the report says that the alleged perpetrator molested the child, on the other hand it says it was an attempted molestation.
Compare that with:
Here's another thing. It takes a LONG time to beat someone to death with your bare hands. It's not an easy thing to do. At some point in time, it had to cross this guys mind, when the guy was beaten bloody and no longer resisting, to hold this suspect for the police, and he chose to kill him instead.
Did the child witness the murder?
I would question how traumatised the child was before the murder, as compared to after. I would question the impact of the murder (whether witnessed, or not) on the child. Children tend to internalise events and take responsibility for them, so has the father added to the child's trauma by his actions?
Hey Blade............
There were two witness............ We have his word that his daughter was assulted, and we have her testimony, unless she is no longer around.
Which means the father is now possibly reliant upon the testimony of the child for his own protection, a further potential trauma for the child. If her testimony isn't "good enough", will she carry that guilt with her for life for not "saving" her daddy?
There's another thread regarding the Jerry Sandusky trial current in these forums where posts lean towards either adults protecting themselves, or expecting protection from children.
Children should not be put in a position where they are expected to protect adults. It should be the other way round.
Lots of other feel differently, and that is fine, it is their choice, but you have to remember the recitivism rate with perverts is very high. Not only are you "taking care of" the person who molested your daughter, you are putting a permanent end to that particular pervert molesting anyone else.
I agree, recidivism amongst paedophiles is likely, but was this the most effective way to stop the perpetrator in terms of the benefit of the children?
Second, since he killed the guy, we now cannot ascertain if, or how many, other children he may have molested, allowing LE to close cases and get those victims help.
I imagine the alleged perpetrator's family will have him cremated and his ashes scattered to the four winds.
If there are other children who have been sexually abused by this man, his murder has denied them the opportunity to confront him in their adulthood, or possibly even deface his grave. The father has effectively denied victims choice in how each of them finds closure, or has maybe cut short their pathway to some sort of emotional recovery.
Wouldn't you do the same for your daughter or any child?
I would question whether he did commit this murder for the benefit of his child, or any other child who may have been victim to this alleged paedophile.
Although I believe that parents whose children are sexually abused are in effect victims themselves, they are not the primary victims, the children are. I would suggest that he committed the murder for his own benefit without total regard for the consequences of his actions upon child victims, thus prioritising his own needs over and above theirs. He did this by taking power and control of the situation, over and above their need to regain power and control over their lives and emotional survival. Paedophiles take power and control away from children, too. Can you see the irony here?
For as long as we have a mentality that its justifiable for adults to string up paedophiles, we pander to adult's needs to distance themselves from such heinous crimes, rather than focusing on the needs of the children.
An extension of this kind of vigilantism, or calls for the death penalty for paedophiles is that it will become paramount that paedophiles silence children in order to protect themselves. Paedophiles employ hideous ways of silencing children, from terror to murder. Do we really want to increase these risks for children?
Whilst I appreciated the rage involved, no, this murder is not justifiable and I wouldn't want my child around someone who has such lack of self-control, or feels their crimes are not crimes...exactly like a paedophile lacks self control, or feels their crimes are justified.
If not, I am sorry you have children.
You go ahead and feel sorry if it makes you feel better, but its not in your control. My body is in my control and I have children.
I will raise them with the ethical code that I believe is paramount for their protection, health and well being. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 7:18:13 PM | "for prisoners to have better benefits than I do"
Now who's fault is that? You are responsible for what you have in life, if your not happy with it, change it.
"because we have so many soft on crime liberals"
How do you know I am soft on crime? You don't even know me. Who says liberals are any which way on anything? It's just a mindset you have, that allows you to vent your frustration.
"Liberals don't want to make the punishment fit the crime"
See, right there you go off the rails with your argument. Objectively, he didn't kill the child, he "attempted" to sexually abuse here, BIG difference, than the price he paid. BUT it's an emotional issue, and one most people cannot reconcile, through their emotional reaction.
"have to pay millions of dollars per criminal"
It costs a little less than $31,000 per person per year to imprison a person, according to a national average. That would mean you would have to imprison some one for 32 years, before the first million was spent. So in order to spend "millions", loosely speaking we'll start at 2, it would take 64 years, before that was the case. A little exagerated now don't ya think?
"This father is a hero"
I always like to think things through before making assertions. I guess you and the others, think differently. First, when my daughters were young, I was always careful, about who I allowed around them. This man admits the person he killed was a "casual acquiantence" not exactly who I would allow around my daughter. Next the story says the little girl wandered into the house, another thing my children when small could never do, they would go wandering anywhere I wasn't able to see them. Maybe that's a Texas thing, let your kids go whereever they wnt, regardless of danger. I mean site unseen, they could pick up one of those famous guns you guys leave all about and shit.
I am not saying he didn't have a right to be outraged, to be angry in the extreme. BUT AGAIN, tha's why we have police, courts and prisons. For justice to be done. Anything else, is just vented anger, left unchecked and no form or substance to law and order...
Then again, like all people like you...you probably think Trayvon deserved to die. Cause he took a walk and a wacko followed him...wonder how you'd feel if your son or daughter wandered into the sights of a nutjob, who thought they did something wrong. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 7:40:12 PM | "I am not saying he didn't have a right to be outraged, to be angry in the extreme. BUT AGAIN, tha's why we have police, courts and prisons. For justice to be done. Anything else, is just vented anger, left unchecked and no form or substance to law and order"
Being outraged isn't a RIGHT it's a HUMAN reaction! I'd hope that my dad would have reacted with rage "in the heat of passion" (that's what the term was created for, situations just like this) and done what was needed to protect me. We can theorize about this til the cows come home, but unless you're be IN that type of situation, you don't know how you'd react. In the few seconds it took to see his daughter being harmed, the instinct is for protection, not thinking wow maybe I should call the police. The justice system recognizes that people act in the heat of passion or rather REact to a threat, it's instinctual. You don't stop and weigh out your options, for God's sake. He wasn't venting anger he was reacting to his FATHERLY INSTINCTS to protect his child and STOP the attacker. Citizens do have rights to self protection and especially with minor children, who are being attacked by an adult, to act in the protection of others. So don't go spew carpola about vented anger and that's what the justice system is for.
I'm not going to go into the details, but my (late) husband and I were attacked in our home, I hit the perp in the head a couple of times with a baseball bat until he fled. And yeah, you betcha, it'd have taken the whole police force to pry me off him, I'd still be whacking him in the head. So don't go telling me about calling the police, the baseball bat was closer than the damn phone! Anyone who wouldn't have done the same would need to go have their head examined. I know what it's like I'VE BEEN THERE have you?
This isn't about the Trayvon case so please don't take this off topic. Calling someone a whacko tends to affect your credibility but it IS an insight into how you think. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:25:51 PM | Alleged is a technical legal term. The alleged criminal allegedly.......until proven or disproven in a court of law. I'm not sure of the technicalities, but I believe it may be alleged even if the father is not charged. They can't convict the perpetrator, but it is certainly part of the evidence that will be presented should the father be charged. Media is bound to use the term alledged in any stories published pre-trial. Since charges have NOT been filed, the state hasn't decided TO charge or WHAT the charges will be. All of that is not published until and when charges are filed. That's how it works. The news doesn't say "the state is considering or thinking about charging........." really? The father cannot be charged with murder, the circumstances don't meet the legal definition/standard. Ignorance of the criminal justice system is rampant, as has been so amply displayed by some posters on this thread. I don't hold myself out to be an expert, buy having been through a murder investigation and trial I know a lot more than I would ever wish to.
My knowledge is from first hand experience not what I read somewhere. | |
|
7iron
| | Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 23 | |
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 8:40:50 PM | | Hell I'm not even an attorney and I could get this man off based on temporary insanity. A trial would be a complete waste of taxpayer money. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 9:52:28 PM | I never expected my opinion to be popular with the crowd. I can not really say, what I would do confronted with the same scenario.
"Being outraged isn't a RIGHT it's a HUMAN reaction!"
That is the exact point I am trying to make. We all have feelings, we all react to stressors in the way we do. We have enacted laws to govern us. That is what seperates us from animals, the use of reason. You may react one way, someone else another, we utilize laws to govern our behavior, so that we rise above the very animals that we have in our midst.
I'm sorry if my rhetoric or tone upsets you. My points are still valid. Why have laws, if we can dispose of them in times of passion? When one poster tells me, the very people we employ to enforce these laws, tells her how to skirt them, I have a problem with that. I get that emotionally, it is very comforting to say, let him kill him, and more power to him. On a logical plane, we are supposed to use the justice system we set up, or why bother having one?
As for Trayvon, maybe I was in error to use a charged case such as that. My point lost on most was that emotionally charged situations, are never better when dealt with in an emotional state.
You say I lose credibility, I say what difference does it make, when someone can choose to obfascate the law, by following pointers, from the very people employed to enforce the laws we enacted.
I have no idea of what you went through, in being attacked in your home. You have my sympathy, I still maintain, when we choose to bypass the very laws we agreed to, we become no better than the criminals we want to imprison.
You may choose to have a different opinion than I, but that doesn't mean my point is moot. It simply means many of you would rather have the rule of the mob, than the rule of justice. It makes for great movies, like Charles Bronson, made, but hardly is appicable, in normal society. What usually follows is when someone makes a mistake, and punishes the wrong person or someone who is in the wrong place at the wrong time, and pays a deadly price. Then we have to "oh that shouldn't have happened, my bad" kinda horsehsit that goes with "mob rules".
"I know what it's like I'VE BEEN THERE have you?"
Sorry, all I'll say is this, I'll stack up my experiences against yours 3 times over. Have you been shot? I have. Have you been threatened with a knife to your throat? I have. You can call me out on any number of things, I have had my share of near death experiences... still that doesn't mean anything, it means that was my lot in life, like all of us. That all of you can justify killing someone, means we view and value the justice system differently. Spare me the emotional justification of taking the law into your own hands.
You are reacting out of emotion, I out of logic, the difference may mean your life, in any number of circumstances. | |
|
| Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/18/2012 10:20:15 PM | | Good for him. Assuming there's proof that the man was molesting this little girl, I'm all for him being dead and no more children will be harmed by him. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
