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| | There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as deathPage 1 of 4 (1, 2, 3, 4) | | According to Albert Einstein, “the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? If so, I wish I could somehow tune in with my much younger self. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/19/2012 3:04:06 PM |
If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? If so, I wish I could somehow tune in with my much younger self.
lol, don't we all, tbicon.....don't we all. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/19/2012 6:09:25 PM | Cress mimics my thoughts.
Even so, conservation of matter and energy apply, so death may or may not be the answer depending on what you consider "death".
Really though, you can expect this won't last forever and should probably make the best of what you have while you've got it. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/20/2012 6:36:03 AM | Heard something similar before.
Something to do with the flicker rate. At any given moment the universe, in it's current state and has always existed in that state.
You change the moment....or instance of time as we know it.....and you have a whole new(other) universe that's always existed too.
Seems a bit silly to me but ah-oh 
I believe there is an on-going experiment to prove, beyond doubt that time exists but can't remember any details.
Yeah, I know.....'Why the hell are you contributing to this thread then?'......Maybe I have too much time on my hands.......universes to occupy | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/20/2012 9:31:15 AM | Time is a construct to keep everything from occurring simultaneously.
Although Quantum theory denies it necessary stability.
If indeed its an artificial constriction, what more proof could be offered for a gracious cosmic benefactor? | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/20/2012 11:31:15 PM | That's the posit of Quantum theory, everything is in flux, as in the mind of a cosmic dreamer, and when the dreamer wakes this reality fades.
At a primal level time and matter are intertwined, and the observation of one denys (prohibits) the continued existence of the other.
Furthermore theorists suggest that during the process of observation of matter the observer exhibits predisposition towards continuity and therefore the matter "seen" is congruous with the earlier iteration seen, but.......without this predisposition nothing would be seen at all.
IE the observer creates reality on the fly via his expectations.
Which if true.......(and it seems like so much bullshit to me!) means that none of us are the dreamer, but the observed preservation of matter from the obliterated time/matter stream.
Try explaining this to your buddy's after a twelve pack! it'll be way more entertaining then! | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 6:54:02 AM | People in the middle ages had this same concept: all time existed at the same time. It is one reason why their literature is riddled with anachronisms. Even some modern Christians have a similar concept--god isn't waiting in heaven for Judgement Day because god exists "outside" of time. Judgement Day has already happened. I suppose it is one way to validate predestination.
Theoretically and philosophically, I agree. Logically, I can't. Perhaps I am too locked into the physical.
So, how do I find out if Einstein and the Medievalists are right?
It sounds as if this is a "scientific" replacement of religion to deal with the fear of death. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 8:51:19 AM |
It sounds as if this is a "scientific" replacement of religion to deal with the fear of death.
One of the difficulties that science has is supporting its own claims, in this case the claim that you cant destroy energy, is irreconcilable with the end of life.
If indeed the energy does still exist then where has it been transferred to? and if not then why would the statement be treated as a truism for other instances? | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 9:21:21 AM | | If you want to visit with your younger self, you'll have to do it in your memory. That's the only place the past exists. As far as the future goes, it doesn't exist at all. It won't exist until it becomes the present. I hate when I have to explain these things. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 2:37:44 PM |
in this case the claim that you cant destroy energy, is irreconcilable with the end of life.
If indeed the energy does still exist then where has it been transferred to?
Life is a cascade of biochemical reactions. Just because the network of processes stop doesn't mean the potential energy of the chemicals disappears. After death they remain and continue to react with each other but in an unregulated, damaging way. Being unable to re-boot is a factor of the local damage that is caused when the network goes down - a bit like a pile-up when the traffic lights go down. The mangled cars can't just resume their journey like nothing happened. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 2:51:38 PM | By your argument there's no such thing as life either, especially since in the vast eternity of the history of the Universe, the time we spend alive is far, Far, FAR smaller than the time we spend dead/non-existant.
Or you could just say that within a 4 dimensional framework we are all things at all times, we are the infant, the child and the adult, alive and dead, wise and unwise, knowledgable and ignorant...
Or you could just focus on Living. :) | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 3:56:35 PM |
...if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live?
He is speaking from a first person perspective.
So it is impossible for us to die in our own eyes, as we will never be aware that we are dead as time only exists when we are conscious of it. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/21/2012 6:45:25 PM |
If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference
I agree with message 3 (CressB); as it isn't an illusion because we are not permitted to gain access to the past & future realms, as a supernatural being would be able to do. Nor can we manipulate the present because it is very fleeting and whose flow is not within our control. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 7:16:37 AM | It seems to me that Einstein is here tacitly admitting that his entire general theory is not based upon any reality whatsoever. His "space-time" is a fiction, meant to dissociate us from our own perceptions and to foster certain myths that have become sacred to modern science. I will enumerate these myths "in a moment." First we must understand what IS time and space. I can assure you they are as real as anything else your eyes can see and maybe even more so, because they are measurable quantities. Space is simply the relative proximity of two or more objects. Whether you imagine the straight lines of Euclidian geometry or the curves of some non-Euclidian space, the reality is in the distance. Likewise, Time is simply the relative proximity of two or more regularly occurring events. Whether it is the number of times a pendulum ticks or the number of times the moon comes back around, the reality is in the rhythm. Could you stop sun from glowing? As long as there is light there will be space and time, and a continuity will exist among the quanta.
Here I walk along a path that intersects a door through which I must pass through along the way. A sign is inscribed above it. It says, "Moment".
What is Einstein's legacy? Besides his discovery of the photoelectric effect, for which he won a Nobel Prize, his theories have largely begotten myths. Here is a short list: black holes, dark matter, dark energy, curved space-time, multiple universes, The Big Bang, duality of matter and energy(is it a particle or a wave?). Any "science" that purposely leaves open the possibility of time travel, in fact even tells us that "anything is possible", was invented only to fool the gullible by stopping him from thinking. Don't fall for it, brothers and sisters. You already know what is real, and the truth is out there if you will look for it.
Peace,
DRH | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 3:40:30 PM | | So DRH, you apparently know far more than the entire community of Theoretical Physicists and all of those experiments proving Einsteing right, that even our GPS units are calibrated on his relativity theories . . are apparently all conspiracies to confuse the rest of us? | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 4:26:04 PM | I think you are taking Einstein out of context and his quote s more technical than that
To argue there is no time is to argue there is no cause and effect – I could answer your question before you have even considered it for example.....you can believe that if you wish but there is no evidence to suggest it is true.
As for claiming many physicists argue there is not time is frankly ludicrous. Without time there is not physics for there is no cause and effect or laws of anything.
It seems to me that Einstein is here tacitly admitting that his entire general theory is not based upon any reality whatsoever.
You are wrong – his open expressions are pretty clear on whether his view of reality was based on observation of reality...what else is physics?
His "space-time" is a fiction, meant to dissociate us from our own perceptions ...... As long as there is light there will be space and time, and a continuity will exist among the quanta.
Well ignoring your very poor/simplistic descriptions of time and space you seem to tell me it’s a fiction and then explain to me what it is. Is it fiction or a real continuity?
Your list of myths is a work of fiction that I cannot even be bothered to refute with facts.
The problem with Time is it is complicated but if we could travel through it * meaning backwards then we would have causes before effects and that is , as far as we know, impossible. Prima facia it would seem most unlikely and rather counter intuitive.
You can hold onto any wishy washy belief system you want mind and think we live for ever in multiple parallel dimensions but I see little to support your view.
*let’s ignore me travelling at near the speed of light for simplicities sake as it is still not backwards | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 7:43:45 PM | | Time does exist. The problem is just that time isn't what we think it is. We tend to think of time a certain way which is incorrect. So discussions about time can be unproductive when it's not even understood properly in the first place. | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/23/2012 8:13:14 PM | According to Albert Einstein, “the distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion.” If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? If so, I wish I could somehow tune in with my much younger self.
Since time does not exist and you cannot die..... work 70 hours a week for 10 years and give all your money to me
so that I can arrange for you to meet your younger self.
OK? | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/24/2012 12:37:15 AM | I have found that questioning Einstein's theories can elicit the same kind of reaction from scientists as pointing out that Jesus was probably dark-skinned to a group of mormons. This I know because my whole family is mormon.
I think you are taking Einstein out of context and his quote s more technical than that I freely admit this, as there was no context provided in the original posting To argue there is no time is to argue there is no cause and effect – I could answer your question before you have even considered it for example.....you can believe that if you wish but there is no evidence to suggest it is true. I may not have made myself clear: I am against the proposition put forward in the subject line. Time and Space are real, Einsteinian "space-time" is fictional. The simplistic definitions of space and time are to demonstrate their simplicity. Explain to me how they are incorrect. Is not the simpler explanation usually the better? Let me elaborate a little. Space has three dimensions(x, y, and z...aka length, width, height), measured in some unit of distance, which define every possible direction. Time is a rate not a distance. By introducing time to the equation as a "fourth dimension" and saying that three-dimensional space is merely a subset of this larger reality and calling it "space-time", Einstein has departed from observations of reality and ventured into that mythical place that is ruled by pure math, where boundary conditions do not bind us, and the infinitely small is just as important as the infinitely large. Does your equation require that you divide by zero? That is not allowed, but you can still get infinitely close to it. C'mon now, do you really think general relativity has been proven because mercury's orbit is ever so slightly inaccurate when calculated by Newton. They claim some total solar eclipse has proven how matter can bend light, and your GPS clock is off by how much? Newtonian physics has been proven over and over again, through countless experiments that directly measure the quantities involved. Einsteinsayswhat? Do you really think Einstein's theories are based on observation? How can that be when it lies orders of magnitude outside of any SCALE that we are capable of measuring. Much of modern cosmology is not much better than religion, in the sense that it can never be disproven(the source of my list of "myths". Do you really think that modern science has explained what CAUSES gravity. No, we can only measure the force that it exerts on matter(which is also "real", btw)and calculate backwards to figure out how big and how far apart they are. You are wrong – his open expressions are pretty clear on whether his view of reality was based on observation of reality...what else is physics? I think I have already answered this. The problem with Time is it is complicated but if we could travel through it * meaning backwards then we would have causes before effects and that is , as far as we know, impossible. Prima facia it would seem most unlikely and rather counter intuitive. You can hold onto any wishy washy belief system you want mind and think we live for ever in multiple parallel dimensions but I see little to support your view. Again, I think you have either misunderstood my position, or you are attacking a straw man that looks nothing like me Your list of myths is a work of fiction that I cannot even be bothered to refute with facts.
While I admit to dabbling a little bit into the merely rhetorical, I am fairly certain that none of these can even be observed, let alone directly measured(except for the duality of light as both particle and wave, which was observed but not explained by measuring the photoelectric effect, for which Einstein won his only nobel prize. Despite what has been claimed by some astronomers, there is not visible any black holes lurking in the center of any galaxies, because the idea itself is merely a mathematical construct, a dividing by zero. There is certainly a black hole lurking in the center of our understanding of the universe, but that is another story.
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/24/2012 10:36:27 AM |
" ... If time does not exist, as many physicists believe, if the past, present and future all exist at the same time but in different dimensions or frames of reference, than is it also true that we never die, that all men who have ever lived still live? ... "
I'm sure that, for some people, this is exactly what happens. They hear 'voices'. Sometimes they do what the 'voices' tell them to do. Most of them probably remain undiagnosed.
Oh ... that thing about 'never dying' ... give it a little more time ... there's a surprise ending ... | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/24/2012 9:30:30 PM | Interesting.....
A debate that puts science on the hot seat.... for its' theoretical, mathematical theories that cannot be observed to actually prove.....
Seems .... once again.... that science begins to be as ..... unprovable as religion when you dig deep.
* * * * * *
Science wants to achieve immortality
What do you think?
Isn't that the ultimate goal of science?
To figure out how to cure death.
Is it too much?
Is it Frankensteinish?
Science states that we are the biochemical make up of our brain and the memories and experiences.
But if science discovers immortality.... how will they know whether its' balance of biochemistry will be the same?
The onset of pharmaceuticals for mental illnesses is staggering.
Will we just create zombie slaves that are immortal? | |
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| There is no such thing as time, and thus no such thing as death
Posted: 6/25/2012 7:55:30 AM |
I have found that questioning Einstein's theories can elicit the same kind of reaction from scientists as pointing out that Jesus was probably dark-skinned to a group of mormons. This I know because my whole family is mormon.
A debate that puts science on the hot seat.... for its' theoretical, mathematical theories that cannot be observed to actually prove.....
Ah great, *sighes*, Yet another thread degenerated into a battle between science and religion.
I can put this in real simple terms (I hate this ridiculous "ah ha, got ya" argument, which stems from nothing but ignorance of the subject material) The legitimacy of science is, in no way, what-so-ever, determined by the presence of any, as of yet, "unproven" theories, that may persist within any of the fields of study science has spawned or continues to foster. Science, as a methodology, is NOT an approach, desinged with the intention of proving theories, as it's measure of success. The ONLY thing that science is concerned with, is the confirmation of observable phenomena through the use of repeatable, objectively demonstrable, experiments . Whether or not theories are proved, is nothing more than a consequence of the observational confirmation of a given phenomenon (theoretical or other wise), which in effect renders theories to be considered completely irrelevant, outside of the initial, potential, to point us in the direction we should be looking to observe said phenomenon.
With any theories in science, the problem is alway observation; in that, we must literaly alter the way we view/observe the universe in order to perceive, or fail to perceive, any observation postulated by said theory. Whether that alteration be to the way we mentally approach our understanding the universe (such was the case with relativity) or to the way in which we physically interact with the universe; to which, a comparison between atomic theory and the electron microscope can be drawn; in that, the innovation of the electron microscope allowed us to physically verify the theory that all matter is composed of atoms.
Atomic theory has been around for more than two thousand five hundred years. Proposed initially by Greek philosophers as "atomism". A brilliant set of philosophies that were far ahead of their time but were lost to humanity, due to the gradual disillusion with the old world philosophies, in the ensuing religious ferver created in the wake of the revelations of aristotle. In this fashion, the continued meddling of religion, with things such as creationism, it may be another two thousand years, or more, before we are able to reconcile the disparities between large scale (relativity) and small scale (quantum mechanics).
PlentyofThrowbacks:
theories that cannot be observed to actually prove.....
While it is true that there are indeed "theories..." Which predict supposed theoretical observable phenomenon "that cannot..." currently "be observed to actually prove.....". None-the-less this is completely irelivent.
The "mass–energy equivalence" (E=mc 2ed) is an observation that was deduced from the theory of relativity, and can now be personally observed and confirmed by ANY person on the planet, in various ways (the more drematic of which would be, exploded nuclear bomb blasts or the power derived from a nuclear power plant). The fact that the theory of relativity seems to be in conflict, in some as-of-yet Indeterminable ways, with other observed and confirmed phenomenon, is completely irrelevant. Einstein's mass-energy equivalence demonstrably holds true as being repeatable and practically applicable to the physical universe, as do many other aspects of relativity, and the same goes for countless other observable phenomenon, that have been scrutinized by science. These phenomenon, have nothing to do with Einstein, and yet, form the majority of the foundation that human beings have built an incredibly advanced civilization upon. This is the only relevant measure of the legitimacy of science: it functions exactly the way it expresses that it should. There is no false dilemmas, no undelivered promises, if you want to travel somewhere, it will take you there. If your sick it will do every thing in it's power (which is tangible and quite considerable) to heal you. If you are hungry it will feed you, Thirsty it will bring you water. If you are ignorant, it will teach you. And it exists as a mater of fact. | |
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