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| | Feminism needed! - even in the womb...Page 1 of 2 (1, 2) | We apparently gave 218 million in aid to India, which I seem to remember was rather ungraciously dismissed as 'peanuts' by their Finance minister, however, if the Indian Government don t want it, why cant we give it to charitable agencies who are working to stop female foeticide and neonaticide in India, feminism is still needed desperately in parts of the world.... Very complex country India though, and very diverse in terms of the wealthy and the poor, the urban and the rural, the educated and the not, but it would be good if part of that massive aid budget (if we still intend to give it), could be used to help stop this..... views???
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/13/india-campaign-debate-female-foeticide | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 8:11:22 AM | I'm not sure that it's something the (UK) government should directly be interfering in. Although it's clearly against our values over here, it is a domestic issue in another country, and particularly with it being an ex-colony I don't think direct intervention or sending government funds to agencies that are set up to target it would go down well with Indians.
However, it is good that the issue is being aired and I expect that lots of British and Western people will choose to privately help those agencies.
I do rather agree with the article though when it states that aborting or killing girl babies is a symptom of a deeper cultural problem, and the real solution is to increase the perceived value of women in society there. To be fair it does sound like the Indian federal and state governments are making some efforts in that area, but it takes time to change attitudes. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 9:26:36 AM | I say if it was dismissed as peanuts then we'll have it back and they can scrounge off someone else or sort their own shit out.
Charity begins at home, and this country needs sorting out too without wasting money on countries not even grateful for the handout :/ | |
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Posted: 7/14/2012 10:19:17 AM | "female foeticide and neonaticide in India"
victims? they're the lucky ones!
do a bit of research on fgm and it's not confined to india, far from it!.
on second thoughts dont do any research, it's probably best not to know. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 11:11:14 AM | At the risk of appearing callous, with our own country in such a mess, i dont support sending hundreds of millions of pounds to other countries,even LESS so, when that/those countries, can clearly afford a nuclear arms branch, and an army and airforce that dwarfs our own, which has ironically been ( or in the process of being) cut to pieces in order to "save money" .
I could of course go on to mention the state of our own infrastructure, the nhs, education, poor roads, all would (should) benefit from the 100`s of millions we send overseas each year,( and which in many cases, probably never reaches the people who need it anyway ) . | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 11:46:53 AM | pandora:
you may be interested in reading this article about that aid knew i had seen it somewhere.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844/India-tells-Britain-We-dont-want-your-aid.html | |
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Posted: 7/14/2012 12:17:00 PM | I often say it's very good power is kept in a small circle in this country.Just imagine some of you being in charge of any serious decision making.
If the Indian government does not care about children who need to be immunised from diseases and our government wants to chip in and help,I say good on our government for saving lives and making living tolerable for those children.
What does charity begins at home means ? Haven't we got a good social welfare system and healthcare which is the envy of the world?
As for the Indian finance minister's statement,it was a political one made in response to people suggesting aid should be withdrawn because a French company was given a contract as opposed to a British one . | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 12:24:28 PM | Thank you try1more, I read it with interest.
Not sure I d totally go down the road of suggesting our foreign aid budget should be cut totally, and we should look after our own first, as I think some would like. However, when our own benefit systems is being tightened, with undoubtedly some innocent and genuine claimants suffering, and our pensioners, care system, and the NHS are all stretched and in desperate needs of more funding, the aid we send to other countries must be reviewed and perhaps lessened. Also, if countries like India are not using it wisely (film projects not being one of those things), then either we could bypass the government to help more needy areas could be one answer, as the article suggested, or perhaps looking again at countries like Burundi, who obviously need the aid more greatly than India, but perhaps don t offer the same political incentive and leverage to the UK.... | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 1:24:04 PM |
I often say it's very good power is kept in a small circle in this country. Just imagine some of you being in charge of any serious decision making.
I like the point being made, although I would question the ethics and suitability of some of those currently within the 'small circle' we have at the moment.
Meddling with the ratio of males v females surviving into adulthood will create some terrible problems and China is learning this the hard way since the 1979 introduction of the one child policy, not foreseen by their government at the time and they are now introducing new measures to encourage families to keep their female babies to address the imbalance. It is expected that by 2020 there will be 30 million more men than women of marriageable age, resulting in social instability because there are not enough women to go around, not least of which is a meteoric rise in prostitution and a disproportionate increase in homosexuality.
Parts of the country are also seeing a growth in kidnapping by China's criminal gangs, resulting in children being chained to posts as they play in their own gardens, hindering their social development. Girls are kidnapped for the sons of wealthy parents and 'reared' for the purpose of ensuring their indulged son will have 'one of his own'. Boys are kidnapped by families who have a daughter and then want to ensure they have an heir. There's no reason to suppose this couldn't happen in India if they allow this to continue.
Our NHS undoubtedly has some issues that need addressing but they are not ones that an extra 218 million will necessarily solve, such as the neglect of Kane Gorney,22, who lost his life at George's Hospital, Tooting because no-one would give him a drink of water, or had bothered to read his case notes. How much would a glass of water or a more caring attitude or some attention to detail have cost?
There's no comparison between the poor of India and the poor in the UK, nor any doubt about who needs this money the most. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 1:31:51 PM | The benefits and wisdom of intergovernmental aid are debatable.Not because of any such banal sayings as charity begins at home.....bloody hell aren't we all people? Why is Jo Bloggs twenty miles down the road anymore deserving of help than Jo Bloggs thousands of miles down the road? But because there is a real and proper debate to be had about the best way to decrease poverty and increase wellbeing and wealth.
India may well be a 'wealthy' country but many of it's people are not.I think anyone in the UK who truly believes that anyone here suffers the same level of degrading poverty that some in India do needs their head testing to be honest.It bears no comparison.
As for the OP the issue you mention IS one that we think horrendous but it would probably be too political for govt money.Maybe the govt needs to dish out it's aid budget to the population in ' overseas aid vouchers' for individuals to spend as they see fit. Pete Singer's website the life you can save has some interesting info about contributing in the most effective way. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 1:41:03 PM | | I ve read some Singer so I shall look that up, thanks for that suggestion Mazeyh, and good points raised by you and Synergie - lots of thinking to do .... | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 2:14:19 PM |
ungraciously dismissed as 'peanuts' by their Finance minister
That's because in terms of back handers and oiling of wheels (it has sod all to do with aid) that's exactly what it is, Peanuts. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 2:58:17 PM | I remember reading somewhere that something like 4 X as much flows out of India, to the "west", as all of the aid combined.
I think we still have a massive debt to pay to India, much of this country's infrastructure and wealth was built in the immoral earnings of colonialism. We raped their lands of wealth and minerals. And the historic ownerships of western founded companies persists, despite their relatively recent independence.
Hence the flow of illegal capital out of the country. We bled India, and she continues to hemorrhage.
Our 'lasting legacy' there: a class system, sectarianism, and world-class corruption.
If India had been allowed to keep what it earned, they wouldn't be needing any more "foreign aid".
Almost a quarter of the world's population lives there, most, in abject poverty, we can't begin to imagine.
I'm not familiar with all of the reasons for an aversion to female offspring, but I think, as ever, the problems stem from age old customs and traditions, and religious practices, which people here, and there, are reluctant to change.
So they'd rather commit infanticide, than change the stupid tradition of 'dowries'.
Just another example of the hateful influences of religion and old tradition, as far as I'm concerned.
Just more deluded people, demanding "respect" for their BS.
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Posted: 7/14/2012 3:55:11 PM | You expect a lot for £0. 21.8 pence per capita don't you? Further so far as Guardian is concerned, that rag is barely qualified as a cheap fish and chips wrapper, any notions forwarded there in deserve the same treatment: wipe and disregard.
Furthermore can you elaborate the "feminism" brand you refer to? | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 4:28:11 PM | India is now as important a trading partner for Britain as America and it’s not surprising the government want to be seen to plough aid money into a country they are hoping to have a “special relationship” with. The use of aid money to pressure recipient governments to respect human rights appears to be on the increase too. Perhaps this is India’s way of saying they are having none of it. My understanding is that 1.8 billion people in India and the EU stand to gain from a free trade zone. In the EU's trade agreement, there is a human rights clause which, if triggered, can lead to trade preferences being cancelled.
The fact is that we have dealings with many countries that have a deplorable track record when it comes to human rights….should we stop sending aid money to them? The Government have cut down the amount of aid money they send to anti gay rights countries.
The world-famous economist Jayati Ghosh says aid from Britain would benefit the UK more than it does India, and makes a negligible difference to relieving poverty in India which backs up the Finance Minister saying it was "peanuts" . She goes on to say that the UK just wants to feel like the ruler of the world and one way of pretending that we are is by handing out money here and there….. I think she’s got a point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVqj1FxxDMI
Many barbaric traditions against women in countries like India and Africa are despicable. Those acts aren't just confined to those countries though and many atrocities against women are happening here.... including FGM. It's just a pity that often aid doesn't appear to reach the people who need it the most and that often it's used as a form of blackmail or leverage. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 4:33:37 PM | personally I dont have a problem with the Guardian, and I know that this happens in India, and in other countries, so in this respect its the story that is more important than the paper that reported it!!
Despite me being aware of the varying strands of feminism, in this instance I would hope the 'sisterhood' although it may have varying explanations for how such actions come about and attitudes are perpetuated, I would hope as women we can see beyond those agendas, and just see how wrong it it to dismiss a gender in such a way... | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 6:02:30 PM | In other words you are skirting around the issue, rounding off on the Guardian the discredited rag that aided and abetted the warmongers in their quest to commit mass murder, which as per Nuremberg Principles stands Guardian guilty of war crime .
India getting a paltry £0.21 pence per capita somehow is of some importance, although the strings attached thereof are blissfully ignored, and also ignored are the conditionality under which the said £ 0.21 is provided to Indians, as well as what expected returns are sought for in lieu of the said £0.21 are of no concern.
Sisterhood, apparently can communicate extra ethereally, therefore us males are not privy to such communications. Hence the lack of any explorations of the "feminism" brand that is subject of the current discussion.
So far as the "Female Gentile Mutilation" goes: this oh so dramatic depiction refers to female circumcision , which is custom of certain African Tribes ( ie the same as wiping one's bottom with toilet tissue instead of ablations with water and or certain bunch of grass) with a historical lineage, that is wrongly attributed to the Muslims. The fact that Jews as well as Muslims circumcise their male going missing, and none ever debate "Male Genital Mutilation " is a subject that never crops up, and no talk of "Male Genital Mutilation".
Finally what brand of "feminism" is being debated? What has the FGM to do with the "feminism" brand debated? Still remain a mystery to those of us without the uplink to the "feminine Ether". | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 7:07:29 PM | Message 17:
What you term has me skirting the issue is actually be choosing to be selective about what argument I ll be drawn into. With regard to the Guardian, obviously not your paper of choice, I could research your claims, as I m not up to speed on what you are saying, but actually as I pointed out it was a debate about the actual story, not the vehicle that reported it...
The money, again it was an observation about how that aid could have been used to help charities or other organisations highlighting what is going on, and looking at ways of re-education within certain areas of Indian culture... In terms of per capita in might be paltry, as a total sum used on varying project it is an amount of money that could make a difference.
Female circumcision is much more barbaric that male circumcision, which does not affect how a man can use his penis, and whilst I think there is some conflicting evidence regarding its impact on sexual pleasure, both for the man and his partner, it can at times be heightened by circumcision, and even if its diminished it still is pleasurable. Babies circumcised at birth would not be aware of this anyhow, although Muslim circumcision can happen at varying ages.
Female circumcision takes away a womens ability to have pleasurable sex, and can often make it very difficult for her to wee as well. It mutilates her genital, putting her at risk too from infections and does not only remove one source of pleasure from sex (her clitoris), but also she can be sewn so tight that sex is very painful too.
If people want to campaign about male circumcision then I ll listen, and may well be supportive, but men do not seem to have a problem with it, and lets be honest, if it significantly affected their health and their ability to have sex then we would be hearing about it I m sure.
You seem very concerned regarding what strand of feminism we need to link this to (brand seems a somewhat patronising term), and I did try to explain that I do think at times the overarching feminist argument of wanting to have equality with men in terms of social, economic, political rights, and in this instance as female human life that has value in itself, and in the way it is naturally made ( and here yes you could argue the case against male circumcision, although I m sure most Jewish and Muslims males would not thank you for starting a case to highlight their plight??) is all that matters. How a Marxist/Radical/Black/Lesbian etc feminist would explain it would vary, but I think at times its not wrong to focus on the issue in hand, rather than get bogged down it lots of different theoretical approaches and explanations, which for the purpose of this forum and discussion is fine. People can look up the various Feminist perspective and these issues if they wish, and I dont align myself with one particular one anyhow...
I put out something that happens to babies and fetus' in several countries, and flagged up an article in a newspaper that was highlighting it, Indigo, added about genital mutilation which is also something that is damaging and harmful to women, and comes about from patriarchal cultures where women do not have the same value and worth as men. That is the issue we should surely be discussing. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/14/2012 8:26:43 PM | So far as the "Female Gentile Mutilation" goes: this oh so dramatic depiction refers to female circumcision , which is custom of certain African Tribes ( ie the same as wiping one's bottom with toilet tissue instead of ablations with water and or certain bunch of grass) with a historical lineage, that is wrongly attributed to the Muslims. The fact that Jews as well as Muslims circumcise their male going missing, and none ever debate "Male Genital Mutilation " is a subject that never crops up, and no talk of "Male Genital Mutilation".
“Female gentile Mutilation”?? – I take it you meant to say Female GENITAL mutilation… or did you intend to make reference to it being a non-jewish practice on girls? The word "gentile" also means heathen or pagan....
No matter… the original post if you read it actually made reference to a custom which victimizes the unborn female fetus because of an ideology based on preference for male children in India. FGM was mentioned merely to highlight another widely spread act against female humanity. However, since your post compares the custom of FGM with the custom of wiping one’s bottom with a bunch of grass, may I respectfully suggest you try wiping your arse with a very sharp shard of glass to get a better comparison… or is that depiction too “dramatic” for you?
I think we’d be better off giving aid money we can spare to charities in the UK who campaign and raise awareness about these matters.... than giving it to the Indian government. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/15/2012 1:06:15 AM | I'm totally against any form of genital 'surgery' unless it is needed for urgent medical reasons, it's simply wrong, period.
I have a bad feeling that the tinkering with the male/female ratio is going to bring some real problems down the line.
The foreign aid budget (or bribe, as it is sometimes referred to)is simply a clumsy tool to try & stimulate exchange trade - in the end, as always, it's all about the paper................
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/15/2012 1:30:30 AM | | I'd rather it went towards helping British women who have to face abuse and forced marriages. These types of things that happen in other countries are cultural. No amount of aid will change that as it's tied into religion. Which is a total hot pot of no go areas. Personally I think religiously governed countries will be the down fall of us all. There is nothing more dangerous than those who see themselves as righteous in the blessing of a fictitious being. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/15/2012 3:48:29 AM | How can foreign aid go to British people ?LOL..It's foreign aid..It's helping children to be immunised,helping old people,It's helping to educate women.It's good that this aid is provided .
I once read that more than a million babies were aborted in the UK in something like ten years,a lot of Indian people would be shocked by that.What is culturally accepted in some countries is seen as sickening in others .
The aid to India and other countries is closely monitored by our government and government agencies ,there is no way millions can be siphoned off to buy jets and build mansions as no one have such an access to the aid .
God bless you all and have a good day. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/15/2012 4:10:07 PM | Pandora....
Given that Guardian is a suspect source, the arising question remains: Why did it carry this story? Further Why are you (plural punters) being told this bit of the events as oppose to the story of China stockpiling rare earth material? (this later portends of a coming protracted and bloody war in Congo, fomented by US Africom). However not digressing from the main thrust of the debate, regards the sums provided to the Indian authorities in the way of development aid.
Already this sum of aid has been alluded to as a bribe, hence we can safely assume that the cause it is likely to support is some slush fund which will be serving both parties involved in the transaction. In fact that last UK development aid episode managed to create a lot of dead Indian farmers whom under the burden of burgeoning debts, which they could not service, and faced with the subsequent loss of their farms, found committing suicide as the force-majeure. The numbers of the dead farmers attest to the success of that particular developmental aid.
The fact that Indian society is facing many problems, some of which are at the heart of their cultural constructs and very difficult to counter somehow is not taken into account. The caste system in India, that stratifies that society, and is the basis of most of the social malaise in India, having been overlooked and going without getting addressed. This makes any effort in rectification of those problems akin to application of a patch dressing to a gaping gangrenous wound in the hope and exception of recovery! This lack of progress is further encouraged with the idealogical struggles of capitalists ( more to the point gambling profiteers) that cannot tolerate any kind of “socialism” at its various flavours.
The feminism “Brand” that I referred to earlier, is the evident commercialised and the pop feminism that has descended into man hating hoards of disappointed and bitter (due to consumerist pressures) females in search of men to castrate and neuter these men in the way of rendering these more “sister friendly”.
Finally, the efforts in diversion of the sums of the development aid commendable as these are, somehow will not yield change, for there are myriads of loopholes that if utilised will change the modalities of the transactions whilst the actualities reaming static and in line with the status quo ante. Therefore, perhaps any attempts of change ought to be directed at education of the proletariat as to the nature of the caste system and its abhorrent results. This latter point must take note of the prevalent xenophobic and racist undertones, and rising above such unconscious drivel to directly engage the Indian society at large and invoke a debate within as to discarding this particular method of stratification of their society. (teach a man how to fish, and he will not go hungry, principle applied) | |
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Posted: 7/16/2012 2:26:00 PM | Guy_iam....
Thank you for an interesting response, and the points you have raised with regard to the caste system in India. For many people, the origins of the caste system are traced back to the Rig Veda, and involve different parts of Purush (primal man) which correspond to the different castes, or even in some accounts they are part of the creator of the world Brahma . Although there are different explanations less divinely inspired to its origins (see below), caste has been so imbued into Indian culture over centuries (between 1500 - 2000 years), that it is going to prove a challenge to change attitudes, but I think some efforts are being made ( but whether it would truly suit some Governments to alter things drastically is open to debate) There have been some shifts, marriages between castes do occur, although these are still rare and newsworthy enough to be commented on in various media publications.
http://blogs.matrimonialsindia.com/2010/04/14/problems-attached-to-inter-caste-marriage-and-ways-to-handle/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/21/AR2008112103971.html
And with regard the treatment of people in the Dalit caste, whilst some attempts have been made to improve the standing of untouchables, deeply held attitudes towards these groups are still proving hard to change, as these articles show.:
http://www.iheu.org/node/1813
http://www.azadindia.org/social-issues/status-of-dalits.html
http://www.dalitfoundation.org/
The task of devaluing the worth of the caste system is a debate that appears to be ongoing within India, certainly Hindu scholars have several theories on the origins of caste including divine order to socio/historical explanations.
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System2.htm
http://adaniel.tripod.com/origin.htm
http://www.preservearticles.com/201105096404/notes-on-the-origin-of-caste-system-in-india.html
So, its a big issue for India to address if it ever does, not to add to it the complexities of the difference in attitudes in poorer village communities, to the affluent middle class city Hindu, and the possible addition of capitalist agendas, as you suggested that would influence the views that many Indians may have too. Still at least articles like the original one mentioned, encourage discussion on India and the way its society is ordered, and has it is so unfair for so many that has surely got to be a good thing???
Finally, please don t generalise that all feminists fit the brand you referred to, some of us whilst seeing need for feminist theory and argument to inform our thinking, does not mean that we hate men. I have two sons, and I celebrate their inherent masculinity, and feel that at times patriarchy is as a much a burden to young men and the potential that they could have too.... And as Jo Vans thread about male circumcision shows there are times when both men and women should stand up for the rights of, and protect our developing young of whichever gender. | |
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| Feminism needed! - even in the womb...
Posted: 7/16/2012 4:31:45 PM | Pandora,
A good post, you have clearly outlined the monumental struggle in shifting the current paradigms of social stratification in India, which inherently is biased against the very poor people whom are in urgent and greater need of a change in their circumstances, and conditions that they are forced to live under. This case is more painful considering the oodles of money the relevant Indian authorities have spent on acquiring nuclear weapons and building up a huge arsenal of various weapons systems.
Needless to point out that those middle men and manufacturers of the said weapons systems have been palming off bits of steel at extortionate prices to the said government, that in turn has been earning the sellers and their sales cadre handsome and huge profits and commissions. Furthermore the sad fact is Indian government is encouraged and pressured to do so by the "international community" (ie US, UK, et al), with the aim of pushing India to becoming the first line of defence for the "capitalist systems" in the coming war with China. The fact that the opportunity cost of such a lavish expenditure on killing technologies is at the expense of an arrested societal development and the greater costs born in the ineffective use of human asset in India (and elsewhere) is of no concern to anyone, and this has been further facilitated by the current trends that pushes the human needs and aspiration into the background given the profiteers priorities.
However without being long winded, the problems we face are systemic corruption that is compounded by the bankruptcy of ideology and paucity of thought. Therefore the paltry sums (albeit large in the scale of the normal run of the mill workers' pay structures) will not address any of the problems faced with the purported target demography of the said aid other than the usual headline generation and the brouhaha associated with such philanthropic gestures. ie photo-op for the relevant politico. Therefore perhaps it is time for the people to start rising above the kabuki played for their benefit, and address the fundamental flaws which are at the root of most of the problems they face.
Finally, I did not generalise I was only testing the school of feminism that was under debate, yes I do agree the tired old battle of sexes has come to be a burdensome affair, if women can be dispatched to fight in the front-lines then there is no need for any woman to be discriminated against. However as you know discrimination needs to have more than one front, and until such a time that racism (an absolute bilge belief structure, seeing as there no races in human kind, and race is a control construct) then females and those with ginger hair, or less pay, etc. can be discriminated against quiet easily. | |
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