| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 1:11:32 AM | I was watching a German film called "Das Experiment" the other week and it got me thinking. Great movie by the way highly reccomended...
Well turns out the movie was based on a real experiment i.e. The Stanford Experiment, I won't get into the details but basically normal everyday people volunteered and were randomly assigned roles as prison guards or prisoners. The experiment had to be cancelled early on in due to some disturbing outcomes.
For details see http://www.prisonexp.org/ or just google "Stanford Prison Experiment"
This has some interesting insight into prisoner abuse and in general how a position of power can change an ordinary person into a saddistic one. This is also kind of related to other famous experiments on "group think" that study how differently people will behave when they become part of a group e.g. prison guards, nazis, republicans (heehee), islamic extremists etc. Seems to me that the average person when put into the correct situation is capable of very extreme behaviour, far more than one would think is commonsense.
In some way its to bad these experiments are unethical as further study might help find ways to avoid corruption of power. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 4:44:17 AM | Have you ever heard about the brown eyes / blue eyes experiment in a grammar school? It's equally interesting... here's a link about it, although google might give you more:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/divided/etc/view.html
When I was a freshman in college my dorm floor actually did this for five days; we didn't distinguish by eye color, but by color pin we were given. Oranges were "in charge," Greens were "neutral" and Purples were the bottom of the food chain (I can't remember what they were called.) We all volunteered to do this, but it was amazing (and startling, and sad) how the dynamic of the floor changed by the end of the second day. It was surprising how nasty oranges became, but even more surprising how much abuse purples were willing to take (presumably for the sake of the game; not one purple stood up and said "no" until they all banded together at the end.) I would NEVER do this with small children today. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 4:50:13 AM | | Eddie, I don't believe in prisons for minor, non-violent offenders. In some ways, prison is very discriminatory as the punishment dealt out to those who can't afford expensive lawyers. For that reason alone, with guys like Kenneth Lay, and a host of corporate execs with big money who get off easy (including Martha Stewart), I won't serve on any jury nor convict anyone. The jails are unfair, the whole legal system is money-oriented, (like most things), and for that reason nobody will ever pick me for a jury. My verdict is already in before I even hear the case. Until the law uniformly convicts everybody equally without regard for big money lawyers, it will be unfair, and therefore an injustice in itself. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 5:00:39 AM | You've piqued my interest... if called, would you TRY to get out of jury duty or are you assuming you'd be dismissed? Seems like it'd be nice to have more jurors like you... seemingly fair and even-handed. Some lawyers would want you... | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 5:06:05 AM | | Nittany, if picked for a panel to be chosen by the attorneys on both sides of the fence, if they question me, I'll tell them up front, I will judge no man nor woman under the current fallacy of "law". | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 11:36:21 AM | presumably for the sake of the game; not one purple stood up and said "no" until they all banded together at the end.)
The people always rise up...revolution...changes..everything.
I once asked my dad what happened to party whips in politics AFTER their parties were no longer in power. The "whips" historically are the ones who "enforced" party "in rules" and "methods of operation" and who co-erced, threatened, bribed, disciplined or in ANY way made sure that their members were following party lines to the tee. Assuring thnat the party leaders mandate and wishes WERE being served fully. Anyways; when I asked what happened to them afterwards; my dad, told me that they were taken to a field and judged.
Based on the compassion, empathy and levels of humanity or inhumanity shown during their time of granted "power absolute"; they were judged by those they ruled. Dad told me many don't come back from that excursion period. Many more do come back broken, shamed, beaten, and on fire. The odd one or exeptional case comes back vindicated, forgiven and proven as one who can avoid the natural inclinations to dominate for dominatin sake alone.
Of course; this was all "metaphoric"..but..it really does make the point. "Tyranny" and love of flexing ones power for powers sake alone should really be a sin. Either way; kharmas' on that case for sure. How one handles power is a MAJOR test to their characters.
The tables can always always turn. Those tables can ALWAYS turn.
Heck; even Machievelli was beaten, destroyed and thrown out in shame!!!!
Tyranny..always...fails...it always..always..fails.
<--always remembers that...always always ALWAYS remembers that.
(Maybe the most ingrained lesson that my dad ever showed this boy)
Learned through the saga of Massey Fergusons decline, Argus corporation, Conrad Black and the town of Brantford ONtario. (All the story of "empireds collapse" and NOT viewed from a non-involved position...ouch..the scars..)
<--was just a little boy.
Rainey, Davis, Reimer, Black...all names I know....
well.
Ghosts...and a cold.... sweat. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 11:47:03 AM | | When I was a young lad I was kind of a bad boy I know it's hard to believe...Anyway I was one of the lucky kids picked to enter te scared straight program at Terre Haute prison in Indiana, it was nothing like The Stanford expernment but it was scarey..One of my buds was in Cinnanon that was much worse then The Stanford expernment...However I did do some time as a kid in a place worse than most prisons having been through those kind of places I don't want to go back.. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 11:48:08 AM |
However I did do some time as a kid in a place worse than most prisons having been through those kind of places I don't want to go back
All behind you sir.
May you know peace forever...now.
 <--it means I feel the pain. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 1:09:49 PM | | Byrd, what is your opinion of Scared Straight? Generally these days it seems to be most effective for a very particular population of kids, (ones who have never had even an ounce of involvement with DOC YET) and I think the effectiveness is lessening all the time. No offense, sir, but your participation WAS a few years ago, ;-) ... so I'm interested in your thoughts! | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 1:33:55 PM | Tha same thing happens in a work environment. It doesn't have to be a prison.
There is a fun little book called Lord of the Flies that you might like. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 1:41:08 PM | I have! BTW, I have blue eyes and am unworthy. I loved that expirement. It showed me how blind we can be to our own prejudice. I'm not prejudiced, of course, just all you other people. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 1:44:03 PM | 'course.
Although the "blind to our own prejudice" theme wasn't what I got from it. Personally, I think it's more about how we generally don't think critically about anything and simply do, and believe, as we're told, even when it contradicts our own moral fiber. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 1:46:42 PM | I will judge no man nor woman under the current fallacy of "law".
Talk to me brother!
ah yes, the *law* part of this illustrious crowd
The Bar, the Pulpit and the Press Nefariously combine To Cry up an usurpt Pow'r And stamp it Right Devine. -1695
great group! set it up so's when ya goes ta cout ya got a Judge-Bar member
defence att-Bar Member
prosecutor- Bar member
is the deck stacked? | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 1:51:50 PM | | The Raliway scared straight the first one was hard core convicted murderers yelling at kids intimadating them in my opinion fear does not work scaring the shit out of someone gives them a reason to prove themselves by committing violient crimes like murder..The scared straight program I was involved in was not based on intimadation we were shown what would more than likley happen to us if we continued along the path we were choosing.. We went one on one with inmates and talked to..The man who was paired up with me had killed his wife and was also a heroin dealer.. Before I experienced the scared straight program I had committed several violient crimes as a direct result of my treatment as a child..My fathers rage the beatings I got and the clincher his drop kick of my ruptured appendix was what made me snap, as it would anyone who didn't die from it...At the time I decided to go straight I was 22 years old I had done very little time in jails no time in prison having no felonies on my adult record but as a child I had committed several counts of attempt murder, One involuntary manslaugther, about a dozen assults on peace officers...I was a mean pissed off little **stard I had also done crimes for money my thinking back then was I wanted to be a John Dillenger..The scared straight program did nothing for me really it was just an expernment I had been in worse places by that time any threats of violience or fear were met with more of the same...It was Alcoholics Anonymous, The police in Santa Barbara Ca. and a clean and sober living home for men in Santa Barbara that helped change and structure my life...If it wasn't for those people I have no doubt I'd be doing time for murder right now...I don't know about the new scared straight program but if it's anything like the old one I wouldn't think much of it..Because of A.A. The P.D. And the sober house it's actually called Newhouse I became a foster father in my 30's and the other night I ran into one of the kids I took in. At first I didn't know who he was but as he got closer I reconized him...I just about died on the spot. He was 6'3 handsome built gee at first I thought he was a cop getting ready to kick my ass..He shook my hand and thanked me and I cried..Oh boy that felt good much better than pulling a couple grand on a job...Back to it though in my opinion intimadation and fear only brings on anger and resentment. The Boys town program in Nebraska now that works, actually they take in girls now too..Love works..But if one commits a crime they deserve to do time... | |
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Dryad
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Joined: 7/19/2005
Msg: 17 | |
| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 2:44:16 PM | The Standford experiment (yes interesting movie) reminds me a great deal of the Milgram experiment.
In this experiment subjects gave increasing levels of electric shock when the ‘learner’ gave the wrong answer. The subjects were told the experiment must continue. None knew the learner was an actor, complicit in the experiment. In the end about 2/3 of the volunteers delivered the maximum shock (450 volts – labeled Danger: Severe Shock), despite the cries, shaking and obvious physical discomfort of the ‘subject.’ And despite there own discomfort and nervousness. No volunteer stopped before reaching 300 volts. Other similar experiments found that up to 85% of volunteers would administer a level of shock they were told was fatal. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 5:22:25 PM | Ve ver follow-ink orrrrders
except in Nitty's case she was wearin ornge and still is | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 6:16:04 PM | | Dryad - I remember the Milgram experiment from school as well, thats the one they use to teach psych students about unethical experimentation. Very very interesting stuff that just proves how when faced with the right situation good people can do an about face and do very bad things. Some of those subjects were traumatized for months after the Milgram experiment when they realized how easily the submitted to the pressure. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 6:33:23 PM | | Yes, I think these studies are in every Psych 101; I remember too. Startling stuff... we'd all like to think we'd respond differently. Hopefully we never have to find out. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 9:06:33 PM | | WEll, regardless of all this oratory, the bottom line is ignorance, fornication for instant gratification, the end result being unwanted children by the millions, and global imbalance in a number of ways. In that respect, the Communist doctrine was correct in saying "war is inevitable". All species have to be killed off when they reach unsustainable levels. That is part of what is destroying the Golden Goose called the USA. Their unsustainable population will destroy American ability to help others over the next few decades. No doubt another war will result as a result of economic collapse. You cannot outsource, and use illegal slave labor to save a country. Sooner or later that temporary fix of things will collapse. The movement has already started. This will bring about more war within the states with a potential of becoming another disastrous Civil War. Slavery is NOT dead as some think, and never has been. | |
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Dryad
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Joined: 7/19/2005
Msg: 22 | |
| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 9:47:11 PM | Interesting Eddie, I think I’ll have to work some psychology course audits into my schedule next term. It’ll be a nice counterbalance to my normal courses.
I’m failing to see where political leanings come into play regarding how people hold up to captivity, or how we behave when placed in roles of authority. (*sigh* I'm chasing the red herring, I'm going to have no respect for myself in the morning.) Strangely though, the most radical leftist guy in the group held up well to the prison stress, became a model prisoner. In our life, we often have the option to say no to abusive behaviour (sometimes with consequences, sometimes not). The thing is, in authoritarian situations, overwhelmingly we don’t.
You mention that these people wouldn’t be able to handle a single day in the military (not entirely sure why, but okay). I’ve had discussions with a friend in the military about this very thing. She told me that the initial training breaks down your identity, forcing you to learn who’s in charge, what the rules are and who has the power. Only then are you admitted into that hierarchy of power. In the military the roles flip. In the experiment, only the “prisoner’s” had the breakdowns. On the other hand, the “guards” expressed disappointment when experiment ended. Hell, for $15/day they were never once late for “work” and even were willing to put in unpaid overtime. Nothing like job satisfaction, eh?
I don’t wonder that even extensive guard training and fairly constant vigilance isn’t sufficient to check abuse in prison system, if a simple 6 day experiment led to:
• Bathroom visits and food becoming privileges frequently denied on whim by guards
• Guards disallowed emptying privy buckets; the prison smelled like urine and feces
• Guards made the prisoners clean toilets using their bare hands
• When visitor’s came they cleaned everyone up, sounds like a guilty conscience to me
• ‘Bad’ prisoners lost their mattresses and slept on concrete floors without clothing
• One prisoner brought in late to the experiment chose to hunger strike and he was thrown into solitary for longer then the guards own rules allowed
• Videotapes of the cells found the guards escalating their abuse in the middle of the night when they thought researchers weren’t watching
• Humiliation tactics to control the prisoners included forced nudity, pornographic and homosexual acts | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/2/2005 11:05:13 PM | | He's trolling the key to a valid experiment is a representative sample set and randomization within/between groups. Hence political ideology is also randomized between groups and not a factor. | |
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| Stanford Prison Experiment
Posted: 8/3/2005 7:51:18 PM | | I was in the military twice...If one means that someone like me cannot take orders from some guy in a uniform screaming in my face he's gonna break me emotionally and with my long hippie hair I'm going to wimper away they are wrong..The first time I got booted for backing a 5 ton truck through an arormy wall drunk..The second time I got booted for beating my company commander into the floor till he was out cold..And yes I'm proud of it. Several other officers bought me drinks for stomping the fool..Not all long hairs are hippies but that doesn't stop others from reading them by their covers...You don't need to bend over for some officer in a uniform to defend your country, but some guys like doing it that way... | |
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