| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 12:59:04 AM | http://www.ulc.org/
Website of the Universal Life Church.
How many people are familiar with this website?
How many of you are ordained priests through this organization?
What do people think about this organization?
Would you ever consider getting married by an Agnostic Priest?
I know I'm opening up a whole can of worms with this topic but I'm kind of curious what some of the responses I will get are. | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 1:03:22 AM | | LOL I got ordained there as a complete and utter joke. Now as for performing marriages there is only like 2 provinces in Canada I think I could. I have no intentions EVER of doing so... just thought it would be funny to say "hey Im ordained" lol | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 4:44:26 AM | Quasi ordinations are everywhere on the web... Oh well goes hand-in-hand with the questionable Christian cult groups I guess.... but then some would say that all religion is a cult… Unfortunately some of these groups are very dangerous and with the web very hard to regulate.
Why is it that some folks are so drawn to groups like these? From my experience it is those who do not want to have to think and need to have all the answers for life provided for them that get sucked in by groups like these and the charismatic leaders that run them....
Just as long as people don't end up in Guyana and drinking purple cool-aid under the influence of some Jim Jones’ type nut case I suppose there is little that can be done about such groups that set themselves up as some religious group...
For anyone thinking of joining some new, unfamiliar religious sounding group my thoughts are see what you can find out about the group's leaders. Most charismatic ministers of groups like this have questionable if not shady pasts and then check with cult watch groups to see if the said group one is thinking of joining is listed and what they are known for...
Cat | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 5:03:57 AM | ^^^
I am thinking perhaps you did not actually read anything on their website.
The Universal Life Church is basically a religious group of agnostics.
They offer free ordinations for anyone who feels they qualify as a priest of their own religious ideas.
There is no cult activity at all to speak of really. They provide the legal backing for alternative religions to have legitimacy.
There may be cults out there that offer similar things, but the ULC is not one of them. In fact they greatly predate the internet. I would have thought of all the people on here that someone who is not a member of a highly public mainstream religion would support their contributions.
Here is a clip from their website that says it a bit more clearly.
You can become a legally ordained minister, instantly, online, at this website. The Universal Life Church is totally non-denominational, interfaith and welcomes all religions. After you fill out the ordination form, you will receive a pop-up instant credential, which serves as your receipt of your ordination. Print it immediately.
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 6:20:26 AM | Sorry I have a problem with ordinations given out like water... I do believe in proper training in whatever tradition someone is following... I was not saying this group is a cult but with the web it is so hard to tell who is legitimate and who is not. Part of the reason for such confusions I think is the lack of historical substance of some of these umbrella groups that pass out ordinations.
It is obvious that they do not take into account to whom they are passing out certifications. Now part of any organization that passes out certification is responsibility for making sure that the members it certifies and ordains adhere to the laws of the region the said individual is in. Also the umbrella group who is supplying ordination and the credibility should as well have a way of removing those who abuse the privilege of ordination so as to prevent cults and those who use religion to commit fraud.
Spiritualism is not some New Age cult it has an established history in Britain, the Us and Canada. It trains its own ministers and is responsible to the public and governments to adhere to laws and rules of ethics and conduct that such umbrella groups as mentioned above cannot promise to do.
Cat | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 6:34:34 AM | Cat,
It seems to me that you take a lot of pot shots at Christianity, as you know I am not a big christianity fan. But at every oportunity you knock the religion.
As alternate religions, which it really doesn't matter how long paganism, spiritualism or any other religion you want to mention has been around. We are still swimming an upstream battle to be recognized.
I agree with your statements about being careful, on what one gets involved with, but Christianity has been around for a long time and people who follow that belief system deserve respect, just as we do.
As for the getting ordaned on the web, I think it's funny to tell you the truth. | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 6:42:13 AM | Dear Cat:
I certainly have no quarrel with what you are saying.
If the Agnostics have gotten together and founded a Church that's great, but why not just see a Justice of the Peace. What would the difference be between an Agnostic service and a Justice of the Peace or City Hall service. I suppose the Agnostics are more portable, and make House Calls, they would not be any cheaper though.
I suppose it would be okay for a woman or man who "always wanted a church wedding", but who never joined a Church!
On the matter of giving away Ordinations, that's a joke. It undermines the value of any ordination, and is a game being played by Agnostics (likely in league with the Atheists) to reduce the credibility of legitimate Ministers and Priests. I know that as an Ordained Minister with the Church of Scientology, the title of "Reverend" is not to be sniffed at. It took a few years of careful study to qualify for this title, believe me.
I find it a bit of a laugh that people can be such losers that they will grasp at anything to appear competent, when they are not. Such offers as "Free to all who apply" and so on do not mean anything once granted, and serve no useful function.
Ed.. | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 6:45:29 AM | Dear Sweet Treat:
Oh, don't tell me that "ordained" ministers of this church can perform Marriages? Say it isn't so (laf). If they can, then they would also qualify for a Tax Break of considerable magnitude (seriously),
Ec.. | |
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BPMG
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Joined: 8/26/2005
Msg: 9 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 9:59:16 AM |
I know that as an Ordained Minister with the Church of Scientology, the title of "Reverend" is not to be sniffed at. I wanted to join that "Church" years ago but was told that I am brain damaged. It gave me time to learn about their way if life. I respect much of what they believe in.
Many see Scientology as a cult. Elron Hubbard was charismatic but this does't make it a cult. Anybodies religion can be considered a cult by someone else, it's a matter of opinion.
I thought I would look into the instant ordination that they mention on the website. I became ordained and sought out other sites to ordain me for free as well. Now I am addicted to becoming ordained.
Is there a 12 step program for this. I need help.
Chuck | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 10:24:00 AM |
Oh, don't tell me that "ordained" ministers of this church can perform Marriages? Say it isn't so (laf). If they can, then they would also qualify for a Tax Break of considerable magnitude (seriously),
Yes you CAN perform marriages, here are a few Questions/Answers in regards to the Ordination..enjoy!:
Is my ordination legal?
Yes, your ordination is legal. Once you are ordained, you are ordained for life unless you request otherwise. If you have questions regarding the requirements for performing ceremonies in your community, please review our FAQ page. However, this does not replace information obtained by contacting your community leaders directly.
I live outside the United States. Am I recognized in my country?
Other than a few locations in Canada, most countries outside the United States do not recognize the Universal Life Church. For further information, or to find out about the requirements of recognition, contact your local officials.
(However as I stated in Canada there are 2 Provinces that I would be recognized, you just have to check)
May I preside over a wedding outside my home state?
Generally you may preside over ceremonies performed outside the state you were ordained in. For specific information and requirements, contact the city or county clerk within the locale the ceremony will take place in.
Like I said I take no stalk in this at all, I did it as a joke..but find it QUITE disturbing that you generally have to be trained in some form of biblial study to because a Pastor/Minister/Ordained, etc..and yet one can "sign up" online and now perform the same types of acts...quite interesting! | |
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BPMG
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Joined: 8/26/2005
Msg: 11 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 10:38:39 AM | One good part is that I am only ordained in the ULC and not in myu own church. I can practice my United Church of Christ beliefs but can not perform as anything other than a plebe in my home church. If I were to perform a ceremony it would be as a rev. of the ULC and people can ask me about it or look it up to see if they really want me as a minister. I would think they would drop me like a bad habit once they learned about it.
I sometimes have to learn by doing. I do not plan on performing any cermonies, and I am surprised that my wife didn't just laugh when I told her of my intentions. I only hope that my real church does not see this as a bad thing, if they do I will "request otherwise" as it is stated on the ULC website.
Instant ordination, sacrilege or just foolish. I am trying to find out.
Chuck | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 11:54:49 AM | I believe in the Protestant concept of " the priesthood of all believers" and therefore I have problems with the concept of professional clergy.
Therefore I have no issue whatsoever with the concept of internet ordination, since to me, ordination has no actual value. | |
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BPMG
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Joined: 8/26/2005
Msg: 13 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 3:43:02 PM | If I am ordained in a substandard Church does that make me sub-ordinate?
Chuck
OT: I don't like canned worms, I like the fresh ones.
An old trick, if they get stale, put them in the toaster before serving.
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 6:11:49 PM | It may surprise some people here, but I'm an ordained minister of the ULC (have been for 8 years). The Church has been in existence for something like 50 years. It's won many legal battles and it's ministers can legally perform marriages. The Church has only two beliefs:
1) Do only that which is right.
2) Everyone has the right to freedom of religion.
The founder is a Christian, but you're not required to be a Christian, or even believe in God. Those of us who have been ordained are trained. We've been trained in the school of life. This is more important than memorizing some stories from a book or claiming that the voices in our heads are of divine nature. | |
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BPMG
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Joined: 8/26/2005
Msg: 15 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/18/2005 11:03:28 PM | The voices in my head are far from divine.
Chuck | |
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longte
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Joined: 10/18/2004
Msg: 16 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 12:44:46 AM | ^^
You must be listening to AM
Just pull your right ear lobe
That will switch to FM
Much more devine voices
On Topic
As a Captain I can perform Marriages
but havn't had the chance yet
..
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 1:21:00 AM | SFL Fair enough but the issue I have is with ANY organization that offers Ordination and Certification without taking any responsibility for who they ordain and certify... What about protecting the public from the kinds of abuse that happens with such fly-by-night, rip-off ministries?
Now ask yourself why do so many of these questionable umbrella groups have Christianish sounding and seeming names?? Maybe because the Christian ministry business is not well regulated? You can bet that Spiritualist churches are put through the rigmarole with the government more than any of these fraudulent, quasi Christian groups will ever be and my bet is that because they have substantial funds the US government leaves them alone for the most part. By the way... the regulations are stiffer in Canada re these matters than they are in the US and with that in mind look where most of the scary cults come from... Could there be some connection?
Yep I agree with your comments re the struggle with getting recognized. That is a frustration but what does joining one of these unknown umbrella groups that come across as kinda, sorta Christian have to offer those on paths like you and I? You would be better to find the reputable Pagan organizations as I have done in Spiritualism and let this kind of nonsense go by the way side.
Well yep I thought online ordinations were funny too until I realized that this is exactly how the worst cults manage to get credibility and dupe the unsuspecting public... and get tax breaks that usually make it easy to commit fraud.
Cat | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 1:33:50 AM | Ed I have no problem with Agnostics or any group organizing to represent itself... but when it comes to ordinations what responsibility do they take if someone they ordain abuses that station? If they would keep track and see what folks are doing and eliminate and publish about those who are committing fraud etc. through the use of the Rev. title then I would have no problem with such things being available. However as you say the ordinations online are likely a joke and I agree that it undermines the value and trust people put in that title when they are looking for spiritual guidance. As for me I have been training for several years to become a minister in Spiritualism and see people totally confused as to who is legitimate whether it be in main line religions or in the area of the New Age movement... I am will aware of how much junk is coming from the New Age sector and hate to think that sites like the one in the OP make it easer for con-artists and psychopaths to seem credible to the public.
Cat | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 8:12:04 AM | | The ULC is not a cult. I've been a member for 8 years and I've never been asked to pay them a dime, I've never been told that if I don't do X, Y, and Z that I'm going to Hell, I've never been threatened with social ostracization for expressing differing opinions from the founder or anyone else, I've never been told who I can have sex with, I've never been told any dietary restrictions, I've never been told that Bishop Kirby Hensley must be obeyed, I've never been told what kind of clothes I can wear, and I've never been told who I can be friends with. There's nothing cultic about the organization at all. The ULC was founded because Hensley was frustrated with the cult-like behavior of mainstream Christian churches. | |
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BPMG
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Joined: 8/26/2005
Msg: 20 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 8:33:45 AM |
The ULC was founded because Hensley was frustrated with the cult-like behavior of mainstream Christian churches. Good point.
Not to mention changing the dates of holidays so that they can mask older Pagan holidays. The church was modified or changed midstream to attract more followers such as losing the circumcising rule hundreds of years ago. They also added sins that were not in the original canonized texts. (I could be wrong on this one)
Martin Luther was not too happy with the Church either.
Chuck | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 9:11:52 AM | Count... it is not that the ULC is a cult but rather that unscrupulous quasi-church leaders/ groups might use the Ordinations offered by this organization to further less than honorable goals... What is the ULC doing to grantee that the people it does certify are not part of cults etc? You seem like a decent person but not everyone who goes into such organizations are of like mind...
What does it matter to you (as an atheist) what I think of the ULC anyway? Hmmm it’s a bit different when something you have invested time and effort into is being questioned? But these are valid questions relating to ULC policies, practices, responsibilities and systems of checks and balances IMO. I live with this kind of assumption and mistrust of my faith everyday... and I accept the questioning as a healthy thing for any organization... Welcome to my world...
Cat | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 6:40:00 PM | | I do have a bit of a stake in things since I am a member of the ULC. People shouldn't put ministers on pedastals, regardless of where they got their certifications from. The recent child abuse scandal of Catholic priests is proof of that. Part of the problem with organized religion is that people of the faith tend to just do as their told by the minister. | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 8:06:51 PM | Cat,
I ment no disrespect with my comments, and I am very afraid of the cult type religions.
The idea of David Keresch
I do feel those people manage no matter if they have a piece of paper or not.
And since there have been those kinds of cults the goverment is going to look closely at any kind of *fringe* religion. Hopefully their careful scrutiny will help to avoid more of those incidents.
With the advent of computers anyone anywhere anytime can print themselves up a legal looking certificate to say anything they want. Look at the people that have been discovered practicing medicine, preforming surgery with forged documents.
There is always danger out there, this is just another part of it. | |
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j-roc
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Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 24 | |
| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 8:49:38 PM | | I was ordained over a year ago on that site. One day I was watching Friends and figured, if Joey could do it, so can I....so I did. | |
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| A new can of worms.
Posted: 10/19/2005 10:02:29 PM | Count I agree with you in most cases re folks being led by their ministers... For me though Spiritualism is not about that... While my minister is a trusted confidant and friend she sure does not make my decisions for me! I do respect that she is a thoroughly educated person in our tradition just as I respect that you are very informed about your ideas re Atheism. Personal Responsibility is a main tenant of my beliefs and I take it very, very seriously.
Part of responsibility though as a ordination-granting organization is to ensure that folks who would abuse their credentials are caught through monitoring and removed and made known to the public. If the ULC is not able to do that or does not consider that as part of it's mandate to prevent dangerous cult leaders/groups from using their ordinations to do damage to people then I would not want to be associated with the group personally. Just would not want my name mixed up in it when something bad goes down and sadly, if no one is monitoring who they are doling the ordinations out to it is just a matter of time before some nutcase does use the credentials to fool, defraud and otherwise damage others...
Having been in a tradition that is constantly under the microscope I have learned that being there can be a really good thing... If nothing else for me I am very aware of the responsibility I have to others and expect the organizations I join to understand that they also have a responsibility to protect the public, their members and their organization's credibility...
Not saying what others should do but since you have been involved for 8 years and you seem like a really together fella I am surprised that you would not have questioned these kinds of issues with any group you join.
Cat | |
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