| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 3:21:24 PM | i confess i have not read the entire 1433 page report. i haven't even completely read the 80 page summary. but in listening to cbc radio programs and people's commentary and the various political parties' spins on the report....there really isn't anything new or damning.
we all knew the scandal was bad. we all knew the kickbacks were in evidence per testimony. we knew the highest levels of chretien's administration were involved. but frankly, i don't think it's the biggest political scandal in canadian history. there are plenty of scandals in this country's short history - since 1867 we've had lots to complain about and plenty of misappropriation of funds.
frankly, as a younger canadian taxpayer and voter (i'm 31), i have to say my political apathy continues to grow. here we have our gov't with party members that had something to do with a huge fraud perpetrated on the canadian people and involving tax payer's hard earned monies. on the other hand, the only real opposition is a hardline conservative who would ask peace loving canadians to jump in bed with a war mongering administration down south, and a right wing approach to issues related to minorities, civil liberties and the social welfare net.
it's not that i don't like our neighbour to the south - we have an extensive trade relationship and many other ties. in times of crises, we of course would stand by them - ie. 9/11, and katrina are just recent examples. but the majority of canadians don't want to go to war in iraq and that's what the one option to the liberals means to us.
on the other hand, while i like the ndp as an opposition - in power they would be a disaster. they don't have a very good history of fiscal management, spending far too much on social programs and not balancing gov't income with expenditures. so i'd like to see layton perhaps as opposition but not as the new gov't.
so what does that leave me? the bloc quebecois? well, i don't have a candidate of this national party actually running in bc. nor do they run in alberta, saskatchewan and manitoba. they also don't have candidates running in the maritimes or up north. so much for a national party, eh?
so given the Gomery report exonerates paul martin, and there are, to me, no other choices....better the devil you know than the devil you are afraid of..... | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 3:28:52 PM | "we all knew the scandal was bad. we all knew the kickbacks were in evidence per testimony. we knew the highest levels of chretien's administration were involved."
You mean to tell me that Canada is not the pure shining light of the world? .Wow
And to think some Canadians are in here crying about the U.S.A while they have their own imperfections to worry about, I say Impeach Chretien! . He`s gotta go.. I will start the ball rolling here in the good ol U.S | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 5:32:32 PM | | I feel your pain singlemaltgirl; I'd vote Bloc if they were running a candidate here. If the Tories threatened to jail Mulroney I'd vote for them. But they have a history of corruption in power that makes these guys look like pikers. I don't know, my local MP is good even if he is a Tory, so I'll support him while holding my nose. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 6:04:22 PM | dmotz39, this is one of the worst scandals in recent memory... and yet nobody died, no treason was commited, no securtity was breached, and it doesn't affect any other nation besides Canada.
As for Impeaching Chretien, you're a little late. He's long gone. Paul Martin is Prime Minister now.
Posted By: dmotz39 on 11/1/2005 6  52 PM You mean to tell me that Canada is not the pure shining light of the world? .Wow And to think some Canadians are in here crying about the U.S.A while they have their own imperfections to worry about, I say Impeach Chretien! . He`s gotta go.. I will start the ball rolling here in the good ol U.S | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/1/2005 11:42:50 PM | | Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!!Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!! | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:14:46 AM | musik - i agree partly with the sentiment that you so eloquently detailed. i just recall that martin was already falling out of favour with chretien in the last couple of years of chretien's administration. he was actually replaced as finance minister despite being exceptionally good (or better than his predecessors) at balancing the budget and putting the country on good financial footing - this DESPITE chretien's sponsorship program.
so while i don't exonerate him completely, again i look to the choices offered. if gomery exonerates martin, then i can see this coming election (in the spring) maintaining the liberals in ottawa.
my problem is, i have no choices. harper could be running for the republican nomination if only he'd been born in the us. i don't have anything against layton - i think he's done a great job of balancing canadian needs with this minority gov't - providing a check to liberal overconfidence (dare i say arrogance?). but the ndp are traditionally a little too generous with social spending, tied to unions and fiscally bad business managers. i don't want to see our deficits grow exponentially - i remember those days and don't want to see them again.
yes i remember tories and their record of gov't. the mulroney administration was a travesty on the canadian people - the GST, meech and charlottetown....hell, does anyone remember airbus?!?!?!?!
i can understand voter apathy. what's a canadian voter supposed to do? | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:18:23 AM | halftime - if your local MP is good than that makes the choice a bit easier i suppose. but perhaps i'm just too cynical but every MP is see is simply going to tow the party line when it comes to their party making up the next gov't.
but you and i seem to share the same frustration. glad to hear i'm not alone. i'm just sorry that we don't have options.
perhaps the maintaining a coalition is the best bet - i don't want the liberals to get a majority. they don't deserve it. and i think the ndp is a good counter balance for them. i'd like to see a true coalition gov't between the liberals and ndp. that probably is the best we can hope for in this country given what we have to choose from. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:23:46 AM | Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!! And the current Boss.
Do you really believe he was like Sargent Schultz? A "I know Nothinnng!" lackie
Or did Gommery not want to ruffle the bear's fur?
I don't think you get to be Prime Minister if you're a "I know Nothinnng!" lackie. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:29:57 AM | | This doesn't change my opinion of the Liberal party.. it just exposes that parties are corrupt like we all knew already. I'll still vote Liberal for the next election because I like their belief systems like passing same sex marriage and not putting us in the Useless War (aka Iraq). and yes I know I'm going to get a lot of flack for my opinion but I just don't care for the other parties and their beliefs. I'm not saying that I believe that the Liberal party has the best belief system in spending our money but I think they were just "unlucky"... they got caught with stupid spending... how many other governments through the years did stupid things like this, or stupider, and never got caught... | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 8:49:16 AM |
what's a canadian voter supposed to do?
Vote for the Green Party.
Paul Martin WAS Finance Minister!!!!!!!! And the current Boss.
Do you really believe he was like Sargent Schultz? A "I know Nothinnng!" lackie
Or did Gommery not want to ruffle the bear's fur?
I don't think you get to be Prime Minister if you're a "I know Nothinnng!" lackie.
At least, someone discussing this topic is intelligent and sensible!
As for the attitude of 'everybody does it' or 'there's no other choices.' Don't be so pathetic! That is an attitude a little kid would have. It's grade school! Indeed, there are slim choices and any choice is better than re-electing the Liberals. How much incentive do you need? Just admit that you don't care about ethics or your money (and other people's money) being stolen. You don't care about corruption, greed and people being shafted. But, don't give the B.S. that there's no choices at all (a choice is to not vote which means not voting for the Liberals!) or that everyone is the same so you might as well vote for the Liberals.
Also, when the Liberals had a majority, they arguably were the most corrupt party in Canadian history when you go by their scandals and the seriousness in scope of them. You sure don't keep rewarding them. At least, the other parties will know they'd being watched carefully if they got in. The Liberals don't care what they do; they just try to not get caught. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 9:22:50 AM | | Hah, exactly. Well, if you knew where to look, you would already know before the report, that he would be exonerated. The report as far as Martin goes really is redundant because it was already known before it even came out what would be said and that he'd get no blame. It's a sham. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 4:07:52 PM | musik - sorry i fail to live up to your ideas of what is sensible and intelligent. perhaps you should skip over my posts since they must seem like so much dribble to you.
as for anyone interested in actually discussing this topic without stifling others ability to share their opinions....
i did not actually post anything about the green party which is a viable party national in scope (at least a hell of a lot more national than the bloc). so just ruminating out loud -
the green party is unproven in gov't. both a negative and a positive. they've never had an opportunity to be corrupt = positive; this doesn't automatically indicate they wouldn't be corrupt = not so positive. they haven't had the chance to govern or even act as opposition and do i really want someone inexperienced running my country? i think their party name is a misnomer and does them a disservice - they are not simply environmentalists. while i don't think i'd want them to be ruling, they make an interesting option in lieu of the ndp and the conservatives.
i don't think that the liberal party is the most corrupt party in canada's history - there is plenty of evidence to indicate otherwise. i do believe their majority gave them carte blanche to do some horrid things and that's why i don't believe that any one gov't should be given a majority like the one we gave to chretien in 1993. there must be a valid national opposition to whatever party rules. i still think the choices are pretty pathetic. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/2/2005 4:15:09 PM | trewq
Ah and this is the real crime in our culture, gettin caught.
What has happened to morals and honour?:-(
i agree - what has happened to our morals and honour? i think the corruption of politicians (a long standing history of corruption) from the municipal all the way to the federal ranks has made us apathetic. is no one in gov't capable of standing up for ethics and the laws of governance? from where i stand, no one is.
and then people wonder about canadian's voter apathy..... | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/3/2005 7:44:06 AM | | On the other hand if we expect our "leaders" to be able to function in the world forum, as is very necessary today, then perhaps we need an experienced back stabber, as he will have to deal with many other experienced back stabbers???? | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/3/2005 8:14:59 AM | | I think you'll have to wait and see what the outcome is from Chretien's application for a Judicial Review of the findings. Chretien is already in a sinking boat and there's nothing stopping him from pulling the plug and sinking them all and Martin may be first on the list. It's going to look good on them and for those who think I'm trashing the Libs... the PC and the rest of the politicians are just as corrupt. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/3/2005 9:57:04 AM | Well, I'm trashing the Libs as they're the ones in office. I hate it when people just shrug it off by saying X party and Y party are just as bad. That is just apathetic excuse-making. They might be as bad but that idea breeds apathy and tolerance.
Maltgirl asked for opinions and I gave one and she happens to not like it. How can you not be tired of excuse-makers, both the politicians and the people who voted for them? Yeah, she has no sense and neither does anyone else who votes for the Liberals after all they've done. They deserve to lose all of their power and political positions no matter what. The lying is still going on. It's absurd and makes no sense when you really think about Martin claiming he had no knowledge and the Gomery report finding Martin exonerated is pure bogus as well. People put up with too much crap and that's why the BS happens so easily. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/3/2005 10:19:32 AM | "Well, I'm trashing the Libs as they're the ones in office. I hate it when people just shrug it off by saying X party and Y party are just as bad. That is just apathetic excuse-making. They might be as bad but that idea breeds apathy and tolerance.
Maltgirl asked for opinions and I gave one and she happens to not like it."
and I gave my opinion which you do not agree with. What breeds apathy is not having a choice to vote for a party instead of being left to vote against a party to kick them out of power. They need an option on a ballot for none of the above so that other like myself can show what we think of the dispicable choices we now have. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/3/2005 2:20:58 PM | musik -
Maltgirl asked for opinions and I gave one and she happens to not like it. How can you not be tired of excuse-makers, both the politicians and the people who voted for them? Yeah, she has no sense
it wasn't the opinion i took exception to, it was the implied insult to anyone who didn't share your opinion that i objected to. in fact, if you read some of the other posts of people who agree with you, you'll notice i didn't take exception to what they said. i started the thread to invite discourse. telling me i have no sense is not discourse - it's insulting me b/c you don't like my opinion. attack the argument not the poster.
and you keep implying that i voted liberal in the last election and intend to this election. when did i say who i voted for or plan on voting for? i do vote and have in every election i have been eligible to do so - but most often i spoil my ballot by writing in, "none of the above". it's my right to vote and i believe in it. it's a shame it doesn't result in much but it's my one legal act of defiance that i can exercise. so many people in this world die for that right.
trewq - i'm all for a lottery that chooses who can run in a riding - say 5 lucky individuals per riding get selected. any eligible voter is eligible for the lottery. all they have to do is provide 100 signatures from other eligible voters and in they go. then we can vote from the choices available to us. anything for electoral reform that will do away with this antiquated party system of mostly privileged out of touch corrupt politicians would be a good thing. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 7:44:06 AM |
it wasn't the opinion i took exception to, it was the implied insult to anyone who didn't share your opinion that i objected to. in fact, if you read some of the other posts of people who agree with you, you'll notice i didn't take exception to what they said. i started the thread to invite discourse. telling me i have no sense is not discourse - it's insulting me b/c you don't like my opinion. attack the argument not the poster.
No, wrong. What you're implying is a common fallacy. You used colourful words and expressions like 'attack' and 'attack the poster.' My entire argument is about 'the Liberals AND people who vote for the Liberals!!! Understand yet? If you are not voting for them, then my most sincere apologies. I know that my position will be considered insulting! But, it's a rational opinion. Hopefully, after thinking about it for a while, you will come to the same conclusion. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 7:51:04 AM | "but most often i spoil my ballot by writing in, "none of the above". it's my right to vote and i believe in it"
singlemaltgirl......unfortunalty even writing in "none of the above" on the ballot does nothing other than add your ballot to the spoiled ballots. The politicians would never add that selection to the ballot because if enough chose that selection the politicians would have to change the game they play. As it is now no matter what party is elected they still play the same game under the same rules. | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 8:55:24 AM | on the other hand, while i like the ndp as an opposition - in power they would be a disaster. they don't have a very good history of fiscal management, spending far too much on social programs and not balancing gov't income with expenditures. so i'd like to see layton perhaps as opposition but not as the new gov't.
They have recently hired financial Executives to assure that the above would not happen. Jack Layton also ran "The Corporation of the City of Toronto" for quite some time.
halftime - if your local MP is good than that makes the choice a bit easier i suppose. but perhaps i'm just too cynical but every MP is see is simply going to tow the party line when it comes to their party making up the next gov't
We are lucky here in KW; our MPS have a history of looking after our interests AND/WHILE holding a strong position in cabinet. (I.e. Karen Redman) ;) Even Ms. Whitmer, for the PCs, looked after her people while contributing to party lines. (of course; she ran into trouble once PC Educational policies were changed...but hey..that also sunk her)
I don't think you get to be Prime Minister if you're a "I know Nothinnng!" lackie.
"Lackie" nothing; Mr. Martin.....was the "competition" sir. "Alpha" position was being warred over.
Just admit that you don't care about ethics or your money (and other people's money) being stolen. You don't care about corruption, greed and people being shafted. But, don't give the B.S. that there's no choices at all (a choice is to not vote which means not voting for the Liberals!) or that everyone is the same so you might as well vote for the Liberals.
Harsh truth......but truth indeed. The comments that these are addressed to really did come down to the above mentioned.
I hate it when people just shrug it off by saying X party and Y party are just as bad. That is just apathetic excuse-making.
Agreed. HAs the NDP been moiled in scandal? (no) | |
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| Gomery report is out & exonerates Paul Martin....your thoughts?
Posted: 11/4/2005 10:45:58 AM | even writing in "none of the above" on the ballot does nothing other than add your ballot to the spoiled ballots
Spoiled Ballots is that not the same idea as "none of the above"? If enough people do as singlemaltgirl and I (Put a Big X through the whole thing), then when the Box of Spoiled ballots is larger then the other boxes, they will have to take notice. Because as been said/noted, they wont put "none of the above" as an option on the ballot. So rather then wait for them to make a move, I say EVERYONE SPOIL YOUR BALLOTS! It sends a bigger message then just staying at home (apathy) because you have no real choices. | |
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