| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/23/2005 8:41:33 PM | How about creation BY evolution? Does anybody think that our creation was as simple as God snapping his fingers? Ahh! No! I'm sure even God has to work with the realms of physics and biology's to have created the Earth and us!! To God, a million years is a nanno second compared to our life span! He has the time to work the necessary steps to form the building blocks of life and help life along as it, or we, evolve!! This not only means our physical bodies, but our souls as well! God has the time and means to do JUST ABOUT anything! So do I believe in evolution: YES!! Do I believe in God: YES!! Could it not be possible that God created the Earth and us, and all other living things, using evolution as a major tool for all of his creations? Does it not stand to reason if God created us so easily, we should be what he wants right now - perfect? If God was finished creating us, then shouldn't we be through with all this faith and bible stuff, and be at one with God and his purpose already? In my opinion, we are far from perfect, and we have much evolving to do yet before we get there - physically, mentally and spiritually!!  | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/23/2005 8:50:31 PM | | The problem seems to be that most mutations are harmful. Why would God direct evolution in such a way as this? | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/23/2005 8:56:09 PM | | Well, (from a non bias view) if you believe in God at all, and these mutations you speak of really do exist, then God created them!! Whether by instantaneous creation or slowly evolving them from the blocks of life God set up!! As far as knowing why God would allow these mutations to exist,..... I dunno!!! LoL! | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/23/2005 9:45:50 PM | | That's a very interesting way to look at it. Reminds me of that movie Groundhog Day lol. but there's some things where i think differently, but i dont really know how to describe it. The way I see it, God doesnt have all the time in the universe, because Time only exists on Earth. God created time. God does not feel the difference between a million years and a nannosecond, until He sent Jesus here, as a person, the way people feel time. We simply base time by a certain point that the earth is turned at a certain angle around the sun. Who caused the earth to move at a certain pace around the sun so that he could create time? GOD!?!?! lol and it's probably just as easy for him as setting a pace on a metronome. Which also makes me think... If time is not measured outside of earth... what else has no effect on the Big Guy? Speed has no effect, because speed recuires time to measure... what abuot strength? knowledge? difficulty? patience? influence? knowing what to say? I think God has every attribute of a spirit perfected the way he wants it. He is flawless and mysterious, just like his plans for for the universe. | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/23/2005 11:36:13 PM | | Actually most mutations are either harmful or neutral. Advantages mutations are a rarity. If you want examples of harmful mutations google genetic disorders. All animals have instances of genetic mutations that are not advantages, although, in rare cases, they could be if the environment were to change in such a fashion that it resonated with the morphological change, allowing those mutated individuals to pass on their genes, concurrent with the predominant gene pool losing some of that advantage. | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/24/2005 3:59:04 PM |
God doesnt have all the time in the universe, because Time only exists on Earth. God created time. God does not feel the difference between a million years and a nannosecond,
Exactly, time as we know it only exists for us. This is one of the reasons why I believe God is using evolution to create us, because, for God, time isn't an issue! And as almighty as he undoubtedly is, he still has limitations as to how fast he can create and how he can create. Hence, we would all be perfect if all God had to do is snap his fingers to create us!! | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2005 1:46:54 PM | | This idea of creation by evolution is just a thought I've been pondering with for awhile, and I just wanted to see what other people thought of it. It's not something I take too seriously, yet it can't hurt to consider the idea. | |
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j-roc
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Joined: 5/24/2005
Msg: 8 | |
| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2005 1:52:47 PM | There is a thread called Time, dissipation and God. that I started awhile back. The topic ended up leaning towards time.
he still has limitations as to how fast he can create and how he can create.
If so then time exists. I think time exists when two pieces of matter are present. When God creates, time exists. If not, he could move through time as a single entity and therefore no limitations would restrict the speed at which he can create. | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2005 3:30:20 PM | The thing is, everything we know about time is based on two things: the Earth's rotation itself: 24 hours; and around the Sun: 365 days. Outside of that, time does NOT exist!! Time is OUR own creation, based on years of astronomical observations and calculations, as well precision, mechanical clock work!! LOL!! God exists in his own time, if any at all!! If God is eternal, then time does not exist for God at all!! God just simply exists, and can do whatever, and take however long, required to achieve his purposes. I just believe it is possible God is using evolution to help create all physical living things!! After all, you can not deny FOSSIL evidence. Maybe evolution is something God encoded in all DNA, in all living things, so everything can adapt in new and constantly changing environments!!  Just a thought. | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/26/2005 3:56:05 PM | Actually I think we measure time (the smallest unit) with the nuclear decay of some carbon atom. Not sure though, but I know atomic clocks use nuclear decay. Time is mearly the counting of an action. It doesn't matter what we use so long as it's constant.
Now I have a similar theory. I'm athiest, but if God does exist, I like to think that he IS the universe. Not in the metaphysical sense, but in the literal sense. Think about this:
Current theory is that the universe was once a big ball of matter and energy that suddenly exploded (Big Bang). What if that big ball was just pure energy. And what if that pure energy was God. Now we know that energy can become mass and vice versa so if God was a being of Pure eneregy and decided to create the universe, he could have simply exploded all his energy into the matter we see now thus starting all of creation.
This would probably cancel out the idea of an actual afterlife, but it would essentially say that god is everwhere and in everything and that god created everything.
Neat hu? | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/27/2005 4:45:39 PM | Actually I think we measure time (the smallest unit) with the nuclear decay of some carbon atom. Not sure though, but I know atomic clocks use nuclear decay. Time is mearly the counting of an action. It doesn't matter what we use so long as it's constant.
Even if this is true today, there was no such thing when time was first invented. Time measurement, quite frankly, evolved over the years, to what it is today: star & sun wheel, to quartz!! LOL! As far as the other theory goes:   I don't buy that one!! I believe we are from the same essence or energy of God, as we are suppose to be his children, but I don't think God WAS the Big Bang, or IS the Universe!! I believe he can control most of the Universe, and I believe he created the Big Bang, which was the beginning of us!! From there, we evolved from the dust on the Earth into what we are today!! Maybe, just the way God meant us to!! | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/27/2005 5:00:44 PM | | I totally agree with happening's conclusions... all I can say is YES! | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 11/27/2005 5:06:12 PM | | Aye, I think God did use da big bang to create da universe and everyfin in it...makes a whole lot of sense to me.. | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 12/19/2005 8:24:31 PM | Its great when I get some support for some of my deep, innovative thoughts! I just believe there is more to our souls and creation than just God materializing us out of nothingness in an instant! I believe (in our time) it would take millions of our years to create the Universe, Earth, and Us! Afterall, no one can deny the complex and intricate designs of life, down to the smallest living organisms and DNA and such. I do believe we are of higher design than just chance, and began with a slow, but sure way, of creating us: Evolution!!!  | |
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| Creation BY Evolution
Posted: 12/19/2005 8:38:04 PM |
I do believe we are of higher design than just chance,
No "chance" in evolution, it's "selective". | |
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| Index of all of Kreationism MYTHS DEBUNKED!
Posted: 12/19/2005 9:58:51 PM |
I encourage everyone else to not even discuss this with anyone making any claim as to the validity of evolution--instead just give them this site and ask them to come back when they have something original to say.
So, why are YOU even on here to begin with?
Where does one begin, with all the Forum Rules you have broken in your post...
Tsk, Tsk...
One thing I will point out though, is that 'talk.origins' and 'wikipedia' are now under careful scrutiny and investigation for misinformation, slanderous postings by the common public, unsubstantiated, non-scientific claims, and outright lies...
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
Maybe YOU should catch up on the latest International News so as to come back better informed, and more prepared in your fallable arguments, and, oh yes, re-read the Forum Rules for posting in here. | |
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| Index of all of Kreationism MYTHS DEBUNKED!
Posted: 12/20/2005 2:45:34 PM | Here's info on the wikopedia issue...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/12/15/wikipedia.ap/index.html
However I wouldn't trust talkorigins myself. Just because someone is an evolutionist doesn't mean they aren't as extreme as christian extremests. There are nuts on both sides of the fence.
Now I've been to the histry channel's forum when they did the "from ape to man" segment. Let me tell you I learned a great deal about this argument. For starters, a thread popped up every 5 min. Secondly BOTH sides used bad information and arguments. And thirdly(and this is the most importiant point) IT WILL NEVER END! There is no point in debating evolution vs creationism because when you involve a supreme being with the ability to manipulate space, time, and energy on an infinite level no matter what test you use it will be false because you can't account for the "God" Factor. So the only logical conclusion is to ignore it. Science goes one way, religion goes another. Keep them separate. | |
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| Index of all of Kreationism MYTHS DEBUNKED!
Posted: 12/20/2005 6:43:13 PM | There was a CNN story about this I saw today.It was about another curriculum being taught in schools that added more to the creationism/evolution debate.It was called intelligent design,something which I believe.I don't buy into the "poof creation story",but I believe there is something intelligent behind the universe.It still hit the stumbling block of,"you can't teach of intelligent design without some type of God,therefore it becomes religion" and the old "science is based on empirical evidence so this is pseudoscience".I think some folks just like to argue.
I don't think Christianity/Judaism/Islam,i.e. beleifs which hold to a Genesis type creation can adapt to evolutiuon,because evolution teaches that all life,including our sentient selves arose from a primeval ooze and developed into what we are today.No fall of man,therefore no need for salvation,which is the basis for all religion.All religions I know of (Satanism being the only exception) teach that God created man for compansionship and that man in his disobedience broke that.They differ in how that union can be restored,but they all believe in a "fall" and a "salvation".Evolution erases this scenario,therefore religion and evolution cannot be reconciled in a thesis/antithesis/synthesis argument imo. | |
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| Index of all of Kreationism MYTHS DEBUNKED!
Posted: 12/20/2005 7:14:46 PM | "evolution teaches that all life,including our sentient selves arose from a primeval ooze and developed into what we are today."
Not exactly. Most scientists would likely agree with something close to that scenario, (although "primeval ooze" is more colorful than descriptive of basic biological elements) but the theory of evolution itself is more the study of the process than the attempt to address points of origin. That's abiogenesis. For instance the theory of evolution doesn't necessarily preclude the possibility that there were multiple points of origin, or for that matter that life's point of origin was one of divine creation and evolved from there, although it would be a small minority of biologists who held that position. | |
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| Index of all of Kreationism MYTHS DEBUNKED!
Posted: 12/20/2005 7:44:52 PM | The universe we live in began under very "suspicious" conditions. If the gravity, EM, weak or strong nuclear forces were even a tiny bit different, elements would not have been able to form and the universe would never have expanded at a useful speed. It just seems to point to a fabrication, rather than a fluke.
Personally, I feel that this universe is a just a playground, to be used in a "what would happen if.....?" frame of reference. No good. No bad. Just play. If God already knew the outcome, this universe would be redundant. I don't believe God knows what I'm going to put on my toast tomorrow morning. Ahhhhh..... the anticipation...... | |
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| Index of all of Kreationism MYTHS DEBUNKED!
Posted: 12/20/2005 8:22:10 PM | But nomad, here's something interesting to note: If it didn't work, you wouldn't be here...
The universe exists and things in it work. That much is fact. Yes if things were a tiny bit different it wouldn't work, but here's the question: How would you know if it was different?
How do you know that there isn't another way the universe could work? And if it didn't work, how would you know it?
Douglas Adams once spoke on the subject of "an artificial God". His argument is something like this:
A puddle is just water in a hole. Suppose the water is alive and can think. It may look at the hole and say "This hole fits me perfectly. This hole was made for me." In reality we know that the puddle mearly fit the hole, not the other way around. However the puddle doesn't know that because it doesn't know that the hole was there before it existed. It doesn't know how it (the puddle) came into existance and it doesn't know where the hole came from. All it knows is that it fits perfectly in the hole.
As humans we look around and say "well, this world fits me perfectly. It has things which give me food, allow me to make clothes and shelter, and also allow me to make tools." but like the puddle, we simply fit in the world because we made ourselves fit. We found a way to take what we have and use it for another purpous. Rocks into spear heads, wood into fire, animal skins for clothes, ect...
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We're just looking at the universe and assuming it has a purpose because things work. Not realizing that if they didn't work we wouldn't be able to stand there wondering why it works. | |
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Posted: 12/20/2005 10:32:01 PM | LordDave:
There are billions of configurations that our universe could have. VERY few would be capable of creating matter, and fewer still, capable of creating life. It seems a bit wasteful to create universes that wouldn't be able to produce patterns of significance. I don't think our Creator would waste its' time on dead-ends.
Wonka:
From post #6 - Advantages mutations are a rarity.
OMG, advantages..... advantageous......... the human dictionary has erred. I'm marking this one on my calendar, for sure! Please tell me you were drunk, and promise you'll try harder, ok? | |
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| Index of all of Kreationism MYTHS DEBUNKED!
Posted: 12/21/2005 7:19:43 AM | See nomad, your counter argument assumes the universe was created by a God. If you DO NOT ASSUME THAT then nature becomes inherantly neutral and "It seems a bit wasteful to create universes that wouldn't be able to produce patterns of significance" becomes irrelivant because then NOTHING has a purpous in it's creation. And if it doesn't have a purpous to begin with, it's not a waste of time.
Here are two things to think about:First, jow many ways can you put a set of cogs together to form a functioning watch? (assuming you have an appropriate spring to drive the system) My guess is alot, but how many will give you the correct time? One. But what is "correct time"? Time YOU define. So really any configuration that produces an output you find acceptable will work and anyother configuration becomes irrelivant even if they will produce a working clock too, but on a different "time standard".
Next think about the universe as a jig saw puzzle in which each piece can only connect one way. If that's the case then the universe would have naturally formed the way it is because each "pattern" is built off the other patterns, which is built off one single starting pattern. So the universe could only form like it is now with whatever "pattern" was the first pattern. (probably matter to energy conversion I would guess)
Also what you seem to fail to realize is that the universe HAS billions and billions of combinations. The Electricity and Magnatism. The relation between the two is so vast it's a topic of study in itself. Moving electrons generate a magnetic field. A changing magnetic field moves electrons. Put a magnetic field perpendicular to an electric field and you get light (or anything else on the EM specturm). Magnatism and Electric fields have no mass, but put them together and they act like a particle (photon). So exactly why is the fact that life managing to form atleast once in a universe as vast as ours with as many combinations as ours special? | |
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