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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 1 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 7:35:01 AM | If using things like cannabis, ecstasy, LSD, magic mushrooms, mescaline, 2cb, cocaine etc are so bad then why have the the most interesting creative people of the last century (at least) been partakers in these and other substances.
It would be interesting to see a list of famous talented individuals who have used substsances and a list of those who haven't. I would bet this here bag of (legal) vision inducing mushrooms, that the list of talented users of substances is far longer than the list of talented people who have completely abstained.
Wishing you all a magical christmas and wonder-filled 2005
DMT | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 2 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 7:40:52 AM | Please note that I am in no way encouraging people to use illegal substances. (There is no need to when the world is full of extraordinay plants and potions that authorities have not made illegal). Also, may I take the opportunity to warn people of the dangers of christmas crackers - they frighten animals, small children, elderly people and those of a nervous disposition. Furthermore, small, tacky toys can fly out and cause injury.
Under no circumstances should you use crackers while driving or operating heavy machinery. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 8:51:43 AM | | if you look at alot of past musicians.. who have made a breakthrough in there music.. like in the late 60s early 70s.. alot of them did do drugs.. but you dont have the oppurtunity to see them.. cause alot of them are dead.. (Jimi Hendrix/Jim Morrison/John Bonham (i know he died of alcohol) | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 9:04:08 AM | | I don't know, I think I'm fairly interesting..... sort of, and I don't even like taking aspirin, hell, about 99 percent of the time I don’t even consume alcohol. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 9:53:03 AM | There are many types of drugs, of course. Much more than 50% of them were discovered by the European speaking world AFTER they came to the Americas, as they were used by various native American cultures and their use was adopted by settlers.
Recreational drugs are usually split into 3 categories: psychedelic, like marijuana, lsd and the like; psychomotivational, like speed, coke and dexidrine, etc..; and "feelgood" drugs like opiates and painkillers. Note that many times the drugs in these categories are used for cross purposes as well.
I think that all species have some sort of "mind", which allows them to think outside of themselves and the moment. Like when a horse bolts during the time you're trying to ride it...or an elephant goes on a wild rampage, or a bird sits on a limb of a tree singing it's song...
Elephants and birds ingest alcohol. Most people don't know this. They do it when they eat rotten fruit laying around trees. They ENJOY doing it. This behavior has been documented a tiny bit and documented by zoologists.
My theory about the "minds" of animals (try not to laugh!) is based on what I have gotten from drugs. How does it affect me when I smoke a doobie and I'm by myself?
I get very analytical about stuff. My thinking seems to automatically go into some "overview seeking" mode and I start analyzing things.. tearing them apart and putting them back together in my mind: in a way that makes sense.
This is one reason I AVOID drugs; because overanalyzing things can drive a person to madness if they just keep doing it all the time... It can make us unproductive. We have to reconcile what we think with the way things are.
Fact: if we live too much in our feelings, then we don't act to make things happen the way we need them to. We feel sorry for ourselves, even if we're rich rock stars...and go into a downward spiral of self-pity.
I feel sorry for people who've OD'd on dope, but almost every one I've known (and I've known afew) had this self-pity thing going at the time it happened. The drug took control of them and it became their lives. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 6 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 12:14:59 PM | One of the strange things that has happened over the last couple of decades is that the potency of weed has increased dramatically (i.e. the level of THC in the bud and resin), while many people retain the perception that weed is the most manageable of all the recreational substances. In fact, in my opinion it is now one of the least manageable substances because it had profound and unpredictable affects on one's consciousness and it stays in the system for a very long time.
However, that aside, anyone who appreciates great art, film, philosophy and music must recognise that the creators of the best work of the 20th and 21st century have been influenced by journeys into the extraordinary worlds that the substances I mentioned (and others) can lead us to. I will come up with a list later, if noone else does, of people who have transformed the publics awareness through art and thinking, but I'd be intested to see if anyone can come up with a list of great visionaries of the last couple of centuries who did not use some consciousness transforming substances. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 4:07:22 PM | Great visionaries...
You mean like Jefferson? Descartes? Marx? Beethoven? Handl? Hayden? Einstein? Thomas Edison? Henry Ford? George Washington?
I think you'd have a hard time finding others whose achievements were in a league with these...
I didn't have to look any of these up... but I never heard of any of these to be drug users... | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 8 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 5:25:52 PM | I was particularly refering to the last century or so as there wasn't the knoweldge of substances or anywhere near the number of substances available in the days of Descartes or Mozart etc. Actually it is well-documented that George Washington grew Marijuanna though we don't know if he smoked it.
What is known is that as different substances because available they have been used to assist the vision of those who have shaped our modern understanding.
For example: Mohammed, Abraham Lincoln, Freud, Jung, Byron, Mary and Percy Shelley, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Charles Dickens, Charles Dodgson (Lewis Caroll), Florence Nightingale, queen Victoria, W B Yeats, Aldous Huxley, Robert Graves, Ernest Hemingway, Victor Hugo, almost every Jazz musician of the early 20th century, Winston Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Van Gough, Dali, Picasso, Ken Kessey, Michel Foucault, Ginsberg, Carl Sagan, Keroac, Stravinsky, just about every decent rock, blues, dance or pop musician since 1962, William Burroughs, Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, people working on just about every decent film made since the Wizard of Oz...to name but a few. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 6:06:53 PM | dmt: Ummmmm... :-D
wull... I thought Clinton didn't inhale?
How come I never heard about most of these people using drugs before? *LOL*
For example: Mohammed, Abraham Lincoln, Freud, Jung, Byron, Mary and Percy Shelley, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Charles Dickens, Charles Dodgson (Lewis Caroll), Florence Nightingale, queen Victoria, W B Yeats, Aldous Huxley, Robert Graves, Ernest Hemingway, Victor Hugo, almost every Jazz musician of the early 20th century, Winston Churchill, Benjamin Franklin, Van Gough, Dali, Picasso, Ken Kessey, Michel Foucault, Ginsberg, Carl Sagan, Keroac, Stravinsky, just about every decent rock, blues, dance or pop musician since 1962, William Burroughs, Bill Gates, Bill Clinton, people working on just about every decent film made since the Wizard of Oz...to name but a few. | |
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zenguy
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Joined: 12/20/2004
Msg: 10 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 7:19:07 PM | I believe I can answer your question. It's because the dominant people in our culture are devotees of a different drug, alcohol. They believe that other mind-altering drugs are bad.
That's all there is to it.
Now as to why they believe that the other drugs are bad, I'm not sure.
Actually, many believe that alcohol is also bad, but ever since the days of prohibition it is assumed that alcohol use cannot be stopped, not to mention that most of the law makers and law enforcers use it. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 11 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/25/2004 7:49:18 PM | yes, and isn't it interesting that alcohol is a drug that has been used for at least 8000 years but people still think that it is somehow preferable, less harmful and more enjoyable than more recently discovered inebriants. It would be like people en masse shunning key hole surgery in favour of having holes drilled in their heads, or asserting that riding a mule is more effective than jet travel. Alcohol is an idea drug to keep the population compliant, controllable and unenlightened. It make peoples thought gravitate towards the lowest common denomenator.
But I guess these globalised times, where people can access better information and a wider array of substances, they might be able to access a wider array of enlightening experiences.
Elwood: this site is an amazing repository of information about the histroy of substance use. It gives timelines of the use of most substnaces known to man and it also can lead to an interesting page that tells you which famous people were reputed to use particular substances. www.erowid.org
and yes you are right about the acronym | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/27/2004 5:14:40 AM | | one of the major problems with all drugs and society is that they (and those) are ostricized. Especially debilitating for the youth. Shunned and outcast from society. Especially harmfull at such an opportunistic and criticall time in life. the kids can get stoned later. Let them get an education first. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/27/2004 1:29:37 PM | Everyone always tries to rationalize, the irrational. You are going to do what you want and I am going to do what I want. I happen to think drugs that alter your ability to function are a dumb idea. I can be as creative as a mother**** without them, so can every other person out there.
Hell, I don't even like over the counter stuff as a general rule. I think it's all a bunch of crap, drink assloads of water a day and you can cure cancer (this is sketchy with very little documentation to back it up, but sometimes you can't always go on documentation).
PS. Make sure it’s not fluoridated water, that stuff is bad for you, contrary to what the government wants you to believe. It collects in your system over time, and redistributes within your organs. It’s also a d*mn poison. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/27/2004 2:36:18 PM | Jeeeee-zus, I like youz guys.
My first monkey wrench to throw at ppl during "drug" debates is the definition of "drug." I think this has been touched on here already. I say that if something alters your consciousness, is within your control to consume/perform, and can be addictive/habitual, then IT IS A DRUG. *Some* drugs are chemicals, and some of those are illegal. But what about, well, everything else? Look me in the eye and say TV isn't a drug to some ppl. Same with chatting on the net. Or listening to/playing music. Getting stoned. Talking on the phone. Haagen-daaz. Arguing with one's sister/mother/gf/bf/dad/brother/wife/dog/playstation/friend/teacher/neighbor. Going out for a beer. Doing one's daily yoga/breathing exercises. H*ll, homework even. EVERYTHING.
This idea throws off my ability to discuss when/whether or not someone should, or at least should be "allowed" to do "drugs". Everyone's on drugs, every day.
But regarding "illegal" chemicals, I side with Ben Franklin; "everything in moderation". If something is recreational, then save it for New Years and Birthday parties. Having a glass of wine with dinner on an occational weekend isn't likely to fry one's brain -- and if you want to smoke a j then do so about as often. Some people are high-strung, and need weed to be functionally calm. So then it's medicinal... and it's a flaky argument but I'll accept it. Most "illegal" drugs have a lot of medicinal/scientific value, if we'd just "legalize" them. Regarding frequency of use, I say save things like LSD and 'shrooms for just a few occations in a lifetime. A few times helps expand the mind... and a few more starts to fry it.
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Someone help me look this up: I don't think that some of today's "illegal" drugs are really illegal. Specifically, marijuana. The Genus "cannabis" has 3 varieties; one is "cannabis sativa", another "cannabis indica"... and one other, I forget. Anyways, the one that was classified as a narcotic in the 1930's was the one used to making hemp, whereas the variety commonly smoked/ingested is a different one -- STILL NOT *TECHNICALLY* ILLEGAL. There was a court case regarding this, somewhere in the Midwest methinks. Anyway, great topic, keep postin' yall. Peace. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 15 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/27/2004 4:43:49 PM |
My first monkey wrench to throw at ppl during "drug" debates is the definition of "drug." I think this has been touched on here already. I say that if something alters your consciousness, is within your control to consume/perform, and can be addictive/habitual, then IT IS A DRUG. *Some* drugs are chemicals, and some of those are illegal. But what about, well, everything else? Look me in the eye and say TV isn't a drug to some ppl. Same with chatting on the net. Or listening to/playing music. Getting stoned. Talking on the phone. Haagen-daaz. Arguing with one's sister/mother/gf/bf/dad/brother/wife/dog/playstation/friend/teacher/neighbor. Going out for a beer. Doing one's daily yoga/breathing exercises. H*ll, homework even. EVERYTHING. This idea throws off my ability to discuss when/whether or not someone should, or at least should be "allowed" to do "drugs". Everyone's on drugs, every day.
This is (masterbart's assertion) such a good point. Most people don't even notice or acknowledge that their consciousness is being altered by every aspect of their phstical and cultural environment as well as their embodied 'reality'. There is a real danger that people become oblivious to the fact that their understanding of reality is being constructed by media, marketting, pollution, wars, money, architecture, close relationships, distant relationships, animals, weather, cultural indoctrination in the form of education, work culture, familty culture, food, liquid we consume, relgion, atheism etc etc. In out minds things become naturalised and it takes a brave or extremely insightful person to recognise the ways in which we have all being enchanted by the magic spells of the things listed above.
By carefully choosing and actively choosing the things that we want to transform our awareness we can begin to pick out way through the myriad ways in which our minds are being controlled. This is a good reason for those who have a vested interest in controlling our thoughts to keep consciousness expanding technolgies illegal.
It is interesting to note however that some of the most extraordinary substances and mixtures of subsstances are completely legal in most places. This might be partly due to the authorities awarenss that criminalising such things would draw attention to them and increase the chances of people using them more widely. This is what happened with LSD, MDMA (ecstacy) and 2CB. When things are legal many people imagine them to be mild, and the criminalisation process creates publicity and mystique.
At the moment some really quite extraordinary substances such as ayahuasca, datura, Iboga, and Salvia Divinorum are legal in most of the world. It would will be interesting to see if these become illegal then increased numbers of people will be compelled to try them
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/27/2004 5:12:51 PM | dmt said "some really quite extraordinary substances such as ayahuasca, datura, Iboga, and Salvia Divinorum are legal in most of the world"
These are not substances I've ever heard of - and you did not say what effects they produce? Would I know them by their street names? I was once an addictions counsellor so I'm curious.
Some drugs are are extremely addictive - heroin, crack cocaine, nicotine etc. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/27/2004 7:20:04 PM | dmt
My placement hours (600) were spent in a Probation and Parole office (where I dealt mainly with people who had alcohol or crack addictions, After that, I worked exclusively with seniors. It was rather like a social work position (too long to explain here). In any event, most older people with addictions are addicted to: alcohol and/or various prescription drugs (tranquilizers etc.). I never met any who used hallucinogenic drugs. I'm somewhat familiar with MAOI more familiar with drugs that are reuptake inhibitors.
Drugs that give ecstatic and or out-of-body experiences have been part of many indigenous people's cultures in the past (and likely the present) often used for sacred purposes. It is perfectly possible to attain an altered state using drumming, breathing, focusing techniques etc. rather than plants, although they can assist. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 18 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/28/2004 5:20:27 AM | | Yes I aggree. It is also possible to have a nice vacation in your car and see some new things. If you want to go further affield however you might find using an aeroplane can allow you access to wider experiences and to a broader array of cultures. It is the same with shamanic work. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 19 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/28/2004 7:42:21 PM |
one of the major problems with all drugs and society is that they (and those) are ostricized. Especially debilitating for the youth. Shunned and outcast from society. Especially harmfull at such an opportunistic and criticall time in life. the kids can get stoned later. Let them get an education first.
This is a really good point but I would like to look at it from a slightly different direction if I may.
Whether we like it or not people are intrinsically curious - we are natural explorers, young people especially. Thank God there are! It is known that people around the world, as well as other animals, have always and will always experiment with their own bodies, minds and the environment around them. Research has shown the health promotion strategies that tell young people to not do things always backfire. People are too clever to be patronised - they need to learn for themselves.
If we accept all this and recognise that young people will use drugs, we have to think about how to support them through dramatic shifts in their understanding of their lives and the world around them. If we discipline them, punish them, ignore them, dismiss their experiences, abandon them, judge it to be evil, or add more stresses to their lives we endanger causing them to have terrible experiences and we cut them off from being able to discus trips etc with anyone adult. Ethnographic studies of shamanic cultures however, have shown that young people who use entheogens (substances that allow access to the spirit-world/God) in societies where these substances are understood by elders, are supported and nurtured. These people learn from the plants etc in a considered and careful manner - rather than running off to the woods or a nightclub etc with their mates and making themselves vulnerable. The culturally sanctioned use of entheogens also allows the healers/priests to pick up on those who have mental, emotional or spiritual difficulties and this allows them to be followed up and supported carefully.
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/28/2004 11:41:30 PM | i just watched a documentary on the history of illegal drugs in this country.
cocaine while extremely dangerous and addictive is actually harmless and beneficail when in its natural form in the coco plant. native peoples would chew the leaves in order to releive fatigue. it was like a shot of esspresso.
anyway, the documentary pointed out that while cocaine was a bad thing when it was being put in everything including soda they thought if the men who outlawed it could see what has happened to our country since it has become illegal, they never would have done it. making things illegal doesnt stop people from doing it, it only costs that government a lot of money to fight and makes regulation impossible. | |
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DMT
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Joined: 12/3/2004
Msg: 21 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 12/29/2004 5:59:26 AM | Absolutely.
I also worry that it (the coke industry) gives people politicans and agents in the US the excuse to undermine south american cultures and governments - using the CIA to help to do so.
Equally as worrying it gives them an excuse to bomb large chunks of the rainforest with chemicals that indiscriminately kill all kinds of plants. This kind of attack on local people and their environment (and well as an environment that all people in the world need to be able to breathe and for our children to breathe) is ridiculous and put the emphasis and blame on people who happen to live in a climate that grows, rather than those who use it. The fact is that most of those using coke are in advanced capitalist societies. To do something about the problem it is necessary to understand what is promoting people to use it. There are no easy answers and we know that if one stimulant is taken away people will find an alternative. Attacking the people of columbia and bolivia etc. is no sane solution - it creates more despair and hate of the US. It could be argued that some industries in the US are geared up to run by coke heads, so perhaps the government is less concerned about people using it than they are people overseas making lots of money out of it and potentially undermining the US influence on the worlds' economy. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 1/3/2005 12:18:18 PM | I don't think anything in moderation is bad.The trouble is so many people who will try a mood altering substance will end up abusing it as means of escaping something in their life which is unbearable to them otherwise.This is not a problem of a substance imo but rather a problem with that persons' psyche.The blighted and poor areas will always be infested with addiction be it Heroin,Crack or cheap booze.
Creative people are generally a stressed out and frequently unhappy and frustrated lot.Their creativity is often stifled by the business people who sell their work.Many times their success is their own worst enemy.Success breeds more stress,more work,more deadlines to meet,more production.Drugs are a way to feel good fast and this becomes a vicious cycle.
I beleive in moderate amounts,certain drugs are harmless and others like MDMA (ecstacy) and other similar drugs should remain in the realm of the research scientist.Some day,they may end up being a treatment for something debilitating.
The so called war on drugs and the current laws are a joke imo.They don't work.I saw an interesting documentary on drug laws on the History channel the other night.Marijuana laws were enacted back during the Great Depression to keep Mexicans out in an attempt to save jobs which were hard to come by then anyway from being lost to south of the border immigrants. | |
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lml4s
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Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 23 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 1/3/2005 8:58:44 PM | I know little about how drugs started being outlawed. I think mostly it was presented at the time as a way to protect people from quack drugs and the woes of addiction. When I was in high school drugs were fun. I sailed through those years without a scratch. Not all my friends did. Then again, I didn't do any drugs that were addictive. I tried coke a couple of times. I didn't like it. Acid was a blast. Back then everything the government did was evil and stupid anyway, so the fact that drugs were illegal fit right into the overall scheme of things. The government was drafting young men and sending them to Vietnam to kill innocent people there, including women and children. I have just always assumed that the reason drugs are illegal in the US is the same reason certain kinds of sex are, and gay marriages, and showing nipples on the TV. Those kinds of laws are about some people's religious beliefs. It is the same as making women in Afghanistan wear burhkas. The wonder of it all is these same beliefs make it heroic to go kill foreigners for financial gain, like in Vietnam and Iraq. But if you grow a pot plant you go to prison. The government is made up of insane people, who run the country on behalf of insane people, and so a lot of their laws make no sense.
If I was paranoid at all I would suspect that the reason behind making LSD illegal was because it enabled people to break through the normal context of thought that conventional dogma requires to appear absolute. People were getting pissed off about the war in Vietnam, and the government's other criminal activities, like overthrowing duly elected foreign governments and assassinating leaders and other people they didn't like. I wonder if the decision to outlaw those drugs was part of the effort to squish the anti-war movement. I bet Oliver Stone could do a good movie about it. Anyway,
The thing about drugs in our western culture is they allow people to escape their normal view. the exact same kind of escape is available naturally without any drugs at all. But western thinking finds that hard to believe. So drugs are a shortcut. This is all well and good in the abstract, but in real life, illegally made drugs are extremely risky. You can easily take something that will kill you or leave your mind badly damaged. I have sympathy for kids wanting to get high, but there are better ways to play with your brain. Certain types of meditation can get you a better high, and once you learn how you have it at will, no pills needed, and no unwanted side effects. | |
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| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 1/4/2005 1:16:19 AM | Drugs are so varied in their intended effects, pain relief, mood-altering, aphrodisiac, psycho-stabilizers, etc... All that matters is whether the user is aware of the effects and side-effects as well as potential hazards of the use, and that the setting is appropriate to the drug. Basically recreational drug use is never welcome at work, and hampering one's reflexes and awareness should never be allowed to affect the public in any away, this especially includes all children (your own as well). Never expose children to illicit drug use in any way. Do not give your drugs to animals, ever!
I've never heard of a drug taker that can follow those rules whenever they take drugs, eventually a mistake is made.
Alcohol is mostly an insidious poison, in my opinion, and should only be used as a fuel instead of gasoline. That's my two bits. | |
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lml4s
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Joined: 12/31/2004
Msg: 25 | |
| If drugs are so bad then why?
Posted: 1/4/2005 4:39:45 AM | | If you use alcoghol for fuel your forcing poor people to have to choose between drinking and driving. Is that fair? | |
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