| new component advice...
Posted: 2/21/2006 9:06:59 AM | so, whenever i get some money saved up I'm thinkin' of doing some major upgrades on my PC...
I guess I'm what the industry would call a "budget gamer". I'm just looking for components that will let me play something like Doom 3 with a lot better quality. Right now my system barely meets the minimum requirements for games like this...
I've done some research so far and decided that I'm gonna be installing these components myself (for the first time)...but I have some specific questions...
I want to get a new motherboard, CPU, video card, and memory. The other components (hard drive, DVD-ROM, case, monitor) are still new enough that I'll be able to keep...
I was thinking:
motherboard: Asus A8N-SLI NVIDIA Socket 939 ATX
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ / 2MB Cache / 2000MHz FSB
video card: whatever is 256 Megs, compatible with PCIe, and still has a VGA hookup (my current monitor doesn't have DVI) but will still give me a half-decent output for under $150 (I dont need a $700 video card), something like an XFX GeForce 6000 series...
memory: 1 Gig DDR, PC3200, Kingston, Corsair, OCZ or Ultra...
My questions are:
for the memory - is dual channel memory better than single channel memory? Does it really matter what brand name I get? Is 1 Gig of memory enough?
for the CPU - whats the difference between a 2 Meg cache and a 1 Meg cache? Is it worth paying more for the processor with the 2 Meg cache? Will I have to watch for motherboard compatibility issues with a 2 Meg cache?
for fitting the motherboard in the case I already have - I know since its an ATX form factor I should be fine...but in order to take advantage of the 10 USB ports and the S/PDIF digital audio hookups, will I need to mess with those metal plates on the back of my current case?
Will I need to get a new power supply?
Will I have to get a heavier duty CPU fan to make sure things won't overheat in the case (ie. since I'll have a 2.2 GHz processor, 1 Gig of memory and a 256 Meg video card)?
any advice would be appreciated... | |
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cjwc
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Joined: 12/26/2003
Msg: 2 | |
| new component advice...
Posted: 2/22/2006 10:20:08 AM | sounds like a good pair for motherboard and cpu. You'll love it. Asus is rock solid as well.
If you can go 2 meg cache, go for it, it makes a pretty big difference. it has to rely on the system memory less for little calculations.
Dual channel is surely better. If you do go dual channel make sure to use one single stick or if two sticks make sure they are both dual channel and of both the same brand and type.
The board should come with a new metalk plate to accomodate the extra connectors. No need for a new case.
Depends on what you already have for a power supply. My new asus board required that 2x2 4 pin power connector. If yours does and you don't have that connector on your power supply you'll definately need a new power supply. Also, how many watts is it and how many amps can the rail voltages give? That's a very important factor. Because of that some 300 watt supplies may be enough if they have a high rail amperage while another one with 450 watts with less rial amperage may burn out in just a few months.
The stock heatsink/fan that comes with the cpu should be sufficiant. | |
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cjwc
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Joined: 12/26/2003
Msg: 4 | |
| new component advice...
Posted: 2/23/2006 4:43:22 PM | correction: Dual channel is meant for pairs. My bad I don't know wtf i was thinking.
get a pair of dual channel sticks to take advantage of the dual channel functionality. | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 2/25/2006 8:53:56 PM | why are you getting an SLI board when you arent even gonna run a midlevel card? dont waste your money on the SLI board. get the A8V if your doing light work.
with dual ch memory you will notice the biggest performance in games, but again your not playing games with any video card under $250CAD (the slowest card for playing games now is probably a 6800GS 256MB)
ATX is ATX but the metal plate the mobo will come with its own, so when you install it just pop your case's metal back plate off and throw on the one from the mobo box
new PSU? yes if your PSU is like a 250W, if your going single card, dual core CPU, single HDD (maybe even double) i recommend a 400W, the new video cards draw 100W EACH. dual core chips draw close to 60-80W under a load. also dont get cheap garbage enermax, OCZ power stream are the way to go. antec sux
you dont need a HSF for the CPU as it comes with one but your case should have all its fan slots filled | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 2/26/2006 10:08:49 AM |
motherboard: Asus A8N-SLI NVIDIA Socket 939 ATX
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+ / 2MB Cache / 2000MHz FSB
Overkill. It's more CPU architecture than clock rate (mhz) that gives you the gains in modern computing. At this juncture you canget by with something in the 1800-2200 range, over 2800 you're wasintg your money.
CPU:
I'd find some $100 mobo and chip from some guy that doesn't know better and is upgrading to a 4gig system; ebay or local stores that sell used stuff is where I'd look. I like Tyan motherboards for industrial, not consumer quality, and frankly I'd go for a dual cpu board; they're about $100 on ebay and the chips will cost you about 150. But it'll run more than twice as fast as a computer with one cpu twice as fast as the duals cpus. If you don't get a Tyan any of the cheap consumer mobos will be fine You really can't buy a bad one. Just don't spend too much. Try to find one that has onboard raid.
Graphics:
I'm less of a purist and would use any video card that had a fan on it. I can find these for $2-$35 in used computer stores. If its got a fan it's fast enough unless googling the card says "uh, no, ewwww".
whats the difference between a 2 Meg cache and a 1 Meg cache?
1 Meg. Ignore that stuff. Just get all the memory you can afford.
will I need to mess with those metal plates on the back of my current case?
Probably but it's not he end of the world.
Will I need to get a new power supply?
Will I have to get a heavier duty CPU fan to make sure things won't overheat in the case (ie. since I'll have a 2.2 GHz processor, 1 Gig of memory and a 256 Meg video card)?
Any new CPU will come with a new fan. As long as it fits it'll work. Frankly even if it doesn't fit it'll work, it's less criticial than you'd think in my experience.
Commodity contemporary computers are just nastily cheap and I'd sink some real money into something big and expensive and over 600 watts. Not because you need that power (but if you add more than one disk drive you will sukuh) but because it's inherantly more stable and long lived and you just don't want to worry about it; power supply problems are the worst to diagnose. If it's heavy, it's good is the rule here, the same as with stereo amps.
You're on the right track about fans though, but case fans not CPU fans, the days of being able to rely on just a power supply fan or even one additional case fan are over. Unless you want this thing to get flakey on the hottest day of the year I'd buy a case that held at least 1 and maybe 2 more fans than just the case fan and populate all the fan slots in the case with fans. If the mobo doesn't have enough headers to supply them power be prepared to do a bit of cutting and soldering. This aint exactly rocket science though.
These things make a lot of heat and you have to move a lot of air through the case to fix that or truly awful things happen and I hope you have a room that needs a space heater. Har. Ait should come in the front and out the back.
There's a couple of neat things on ebay that you might be able to find locally, first is a filter for the incoming case fan. Without one of these you'll be vacuuming crud out of the insides every six months. The other is a 3 fan doodad that fits in where a cd drive goes. 3 fans are nice because if one fails the other two work. That's a nice safetly margin and they're lke $12 and worth twice that IMO. Some disk drives run hot, but these are usually scsi not IDE or SATA, bt if you have one or more you'll need a fan blowing directly over it/them if you expect them to last.
In summary, get a good case, power supply and fan. Avoid cases that are thin or have (razor!) sharp edges of cheap switches. Get a heavy power supply. Get a good mobo and chip and any reasonable video card, but these are cheap and abundant.
The rest is just little stuff and don't sweat the little stuff. | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 2/28/2006 7:17:06 AM | I disagree on some points above me but others are good.
I have the motherboard you list (Asus A8N Deluxe SLI) and it is a very good board (the premium is slightly more $, $10 I think, so maybe look at that one). Don't go for cheap here you will regret it later. Dual CPU is not necessary for the casual gamer and other tasks. I have yet to see a machine other than a server that will fully utilize the dual CPU. It also has raid, dual IDE channels, and supports up to eight SATA drives.
The CPU you picked is also a good one. If you can afford it go for it, saves upgrading later.The poster above says it's a waste but a fast CPU is never a waste if you have the money to buy it. The difference between a 1 Meg and 2 Meg cache are execution times. More instructions can be done on the CPU therefore it is faster. Look up info on tomshardware.com. Very comprehensive and they are always objective. As a matter of fact clock rate does make a difference. Comparing a 2000 MHz and a 2200 MHz no they don't. But Compare a 2000MHz and a 3000MHZ and they make a huge difference, specially in AMD.
Get 2 gigs of memory, in 512 chips, and they will run in dual channel mode just by the nature of how you put them in the mobo.
You will need a bigger power supply. I agree with the 600 W assesment. A large power supply will never be a waste.
Go for a new case with a few fans. You will not be disappointed for the extra cooling.
For video, DO NOT listen to the poster above me if you want to play games like DOOM 3. If you get the $30 video card you won't be able to play PacMan.You mentioned a 6800 series and that's ok but for a few dollars more you can get a 7800 GT. This card will allow you to crank up details on pretty much any game and still get 60 FPS. It is also SLI compatable so if you have extra cash in the future you can go dual video cards. With video cards you truly get what you pay for. You buy a cheap card you will serverely limit the games you can play. I have had many many different ones so I know what I am talking about on this. If it has a fan it's fast enough is just wrong. I know cards that have fans and lag on even the most simple games at low res.
The motherboard has onboard sound but that is not the best. Get a Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS or something like it. You will get 5.1 surround sound (beleive when I say it makes all the difference in games) and it will be worth it.
My system right now:
Asus A8N Deluxe with AMD 64 3000 (upgrade time soon)
2 Gigs RAM
Audigy 2 ZS
MSI 7800 GT
DL DVD Burner
Samsung 200 Gig SATA HDD.
I can play Doom 3 at 1600x 1200 with all details maxed plus I play other games at hi res. I put together this system for under $1000 (without monitor) and it is upgradeable. | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 2/28/2006 11:49:13 AM | yep sounds like a good setup to me. this is what i use with no problems so far.
asus p5p800 motherboard
2 gig kingston pc3200 memory
dual 160 gig western dgital in a raid array
and a 256 agp as i dont have pcie radeon all in wander
i dont knwo if i would go for nvidia tho cause it seems like they are slowly slacking behind in video tech. and alot of games ou there nowdays are losing support for there drivers. as for doom three well i play that on my xbox so i wouldnt knwo all to much about sys requierments for the pc version. but my friend plays world of warcraft on his crappy k62 and it runs rather well for needing more. | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 2/28/2006 11:14:25 PM | your a little out of date for that one, they only sucked with their FX line of crap, once they got the 6xxx and 7xxx they were back ontop, currently the absolute fastest video card is the ATi x1900xtx in crossfire but the 7900 refresh is comming out soon, nvidia and ATi are pretty much on par again, nvidia laptop cards currently are ahead right now with the 7800go 256MB.
also doom3 is really really old.. quake 4 is even old, the games now that demand a good system is FEAR, SLI cards run it the fastest currently (dual 7800GTX SLI 512MB OC) | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/1/2006 10:37:33 AM | The reason I reccomend NVidia is primarily their drivers. ATI still has driver issues they have yet to resolve. I have read many forums and sites comparing the two and it seems alot of people report ATI issues but very few ever say anything about Nvidia. The ATI 1900 is the fastest card but it costs around $800 (CDN). The 7800 GT is around $400 CDN but can be had for less if you look around and it is a great performer.
FEAR is a new benchmark for alot of tests as it is pretty graphic intensive. Yes it makes very good use of SLI but it is one of the very few games that do. In fact most games take a huge performance hit on dual GPU's. They just aren't coded for it. 99% of the games out there will run on a 7800 (or an 1800 series) at max and still get decent framerates.
You could start with a 6600 or 6800 series for about half the price of a 7800 but it won't be near the performance of the higher end card.
Like Nuts says, they are pretty much on par for now. One comes out with something better and it has gone back and forth for years now. I think once ATI fixes their drivers they will be a good card for everything. Right now though, nvidia has more stable drivers and they are actually a little cheaper for what you get.
Goto www.tomshardware.com and lok for VGA reviews or tests and see for yourself how the cards compare. For that matter look up other components and see what he says. | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/1/2006 11:49:06 AM | | well i agree with youfoundhim and what you have said my brother makes sence but on ething you have to bear in mind is about the tower cooling if you can put extra fans in there that would be good and much for the speed of the fsb and the cache, that is good and get a 600watts power supply. | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/1/2006 2:04:18 PM | @OP
First you have to look at this from a cost point-of-view. Is it worth upgrading
with all these *new* components if you can purchase a newer computer with
these components intact.
Secondly, most new games you can play with just 512 of DDR ram and they work
really well but you require a graphics card with pixel Shader 2.0+.
So something like a nVIDIA Geforce 6600GT AGP 8X 128MB GDDR3 400 MHz
will suffice and keep you gaming for a while. Also you're going to need a good
enough speed on your hard drive , which I haven't seen even mentioned. A fast hard
drive is just as important as enough Ram.
The nVIDIA Geforce 6600GT will run you around 200.00 US.
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/1/2006 3:41:48 PM | | ive got the x800 xt all in wander and i havent ran into any driver issues with any of the games i played on it and i play some pretty intense 3d games. | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/3/2006 6:40:09 AM | 512 RAM is sufficient for Windows and office type apps. If you want to play today's games you need at least a gig. For games like Battlerfield 2 you need 2 gigs for the game to perform well. I know this for a fact. 512 RAM just doesn't cut it these days. RAM is so cheap why not go for the extra, it is worth every penny if you don't like waiting for things to happen when you are on your computer.
Go here for the latest testing and comparison on PCIe cards http://www.tomshardware.com/2005/12/02/vga_charts_viii/ . See for yourself how they perform. For average pricing in CDN $ go to
www.ncix.com or
http://www.genitechcomputers.com/.
I can pick up a 6600 GT for around $175 CDn from those two store.
Good luck and have fun with it.
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/4/2006 12:23:14 PM | wow!!! once again thanks to all of you...its been a while since I've visited this thread and I've definitely got some good feedback here...
About the onboard audio...actually that comment confirms what I was thinking in the back of my head (ie. how good is the audio integrated on the mobo?)...and what actually had a big role in initiating this whole idea to upgrade for me...
about 1/2 a year ago i got one of Logitech's 5.1 Surround systems (Z-5500 i think, for my current computer...overkill, I know! LOL) and it smokes!!! I love it! Except I cant take advantage of the THX-certified Dolby/DTS digital sound with my current computer...I only have the 3-pronged analog hookups available (my current mobo is an Asus Socket A S-7333 XP, or something along those lines, its about 4 years old now), so when I learned that new mobo's have S/PDIF hookups on them now I started looking around.
But what I could do right now is just get a seperate sound card for my current system too (someone mentioned the Creative Lab's Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS...thanks, i was thinking about that same card! It has THX certification too...sweet  ). So I take it that a sound card like this is better than the onboard digital audio components that the newer mobo's have?
then if I do that...I can wait a little bit longer, save up the cash for a little while and then do the major upgrades...then I can even use that soundcard on the new system i get...
again...thanks people  | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/5/2006 4:59:12 AM | For what its worth:
I'm running an Athlon X2 4400 (overclocked to 2.6ghz)
Gigabyte motherboard
2 gigs of corsair DC ram
2 SATA hard drives
... I've yet to be able to slow this baby down with ANYTHING I throw at it ... full screen high resolution movie playback, halflife2 with all the goodies turned on, etc etc.. when I run Linux, its more responsive than any other computer I've ever used (Except a few big-money Sun servers). I built my last kernel in under 4 mins on this machine! | |
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| new component advice...
Posted: 3/5/2006 5:00:24 AM | | Almost forgot, I'm using the heatsink that came with the boxed CPU .. the AMD heatsinks are very good, and the X2 one has a very reliable quiet fan, and is a BIG block of metal with heatpipes. I've yet to have a thermal issue. | |
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