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BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!Page 1 of 1    
Another brick OUT of the wall of lies that the BIBLE builds on FAITH!

Gospel of Judas casts doubt on traditional beliefs- and 194 related stories [so far;]...

http://news.google.com/news?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-22,GGLD:en&ncl=http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2121611,00.html&hl=en

www.nationalgeographic.com/lostgospel
[note- i couldn't get in- you think they're swamped;?]

of course they could be lying too... ;]

Expert Doubts ‘Gospel of Judas‘ Revelation
http://www.heraldnewsdaily.com/stories/news-00151866.html

Me? most of my life i've believed that religion is probably the greatest
scam ever perpetrated upon the human race- rivaled only by government.

schadenfreude! [comeuppance~ROFLMAO;]

Patriot; traitor-
The difference lies within
PR; good or bad

Patriot; traitor-
The different lies within
PR; Bible / Judas
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 2
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 4/6/2006 6:47:08 PM
OK, you provided so much evidence, it is clear my faith is wrong. I am throwing all my Bibles, my concordances, my wwjd bracelets, my religious music, my official "love offering" holy water packet, my TBN videos, my subscription to "Christian weekly," my church membership, I will give away my dogma with its bag of dogma food and free dogma dish, my secret "Lazarus" decoder ring, all my Charleton Heston videos, my "William Shatner Reads the New Testament" cassette tapes, my "Jesus saves" and "Christians Arent Perfect Just Forgiven" bumper stickers (with the bumper because they wont come off), my subscription to "Focus on the Family," my 700 club membership, and, last, but not least, the plastic jesus that sits on the dash board that the head goes up and down everytime I hit the railroad tracks.

Now I will truly be FREE:-)
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 4/6/2006 7:36:41 PM
LOL here is *shuffles* pile of papers- a watchtower, st joseph[?] sunday missal? rosary beads, st christophers medal [think i'll keep it as a good luck charm;], votive candles, silk screen jesus, stations of the cross, nuns nasty habits, the 50/50 fete tickets etc- oops! almost threw out my "A" ticket to heaven [altar boy;]

but- let's see what profoundities katie, rush, w and his RR come up with;]

oh yes- and the icons of the religious right, those who speak directly to the lord. oops. those that god speaks directly to! jim baker, swaggart, jesse jackson and the biggest bible thumping aldulterer of them all- bill clinton! ok- bush thumps it harder- but am not sure he's an adulterer- just a cowardly draft dodging deserter [if we can ever find those AWOL reports;], that is the worst president i've ever seen [harding's dead]

[i'll keep my karma warmed up to run over any stray dogmas;]

GREAT! now about these governments...
 Mabus 666
Joined: 10/22/2007
Msg: 4
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/25/2007 10:46:55 AM

Me? most of my life i've believed that religion is probably the greatest
scam ever perpetrated upon the human race- rivaled only by government.


The government has always used religion directly/indirectly to further its agenda. Now Christen & Islamic Nations alike see current events as a sign of true prophecy. People have been brainwashed, so they don't know or fight against events that will grow to an apocalyptic scale.

Time is short, so people have to ask themselfs.

1.) If they wish to join the church; so they can make it to heaven, or otherwise be saved.

2.) Acknowlage that religion is BS, and side with the elite.

3) understand that they are wicked, ask themselfs if they want to punish, or be punished when they go to hell. These people should be seeking a dark salvation.

The end is near, and I don't care if its prophecy or self a fulfilled prophecy. I beleave the worlds population is about to be drastically reduced in a few short years.
 doza2007
Joined: 3/7/2007
Msg: 5
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/25/2007 11:19:05 AM
I think the Gospel of Judas are the words of a man so overcome with the guilt of effectively killing his mentor and rabbi, he sought to write a tract that would lead people to believe that he could justify his actions. People even today do it all the time, for different reasons of course, but the act is the same.
 Artz
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 6
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History
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/25/2007 11:19:41 AM
Twobits, Thats a nice start. now that you have cleared some room put a few new book of the sheves. Many here will be happy to give you a fine reading list. Once you have added to your education Go back and get your Bibles dust them off and read them again.
I would read the gosspel of Thomas is one place to start.
not sure i want to reply to anything written by The Andy Christ
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 7
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/25/2007 5:25:58 PM
OP, I am not going to read 194 different articles. If you want to make your point, then state it so that it is something that can be debated. As it is, all you have stated is that Judas was a patriot rather than a traitor.

In the first place, no one is claiming that Judas betrayed his country therefore his patriotism is not in doubt. What is undeniable, according to the Bible, is that Judas betrayed his friend, Jesus, because he was a thief and was promised 30 pieces of silver by the religious leaders. When Judas realized that Jesus was going to be put to death, he tried to give the money back, but the religious leaders wouldn't take it back. Judas went out and hanged himself. The money was used to buy a field to bury the poor and indigent.

The Gospel of Judas is not a part of the New Testament. It is not part of the canon of scripture. Your post makes no sense because it is written in fragments rather than sentences.

Of course the Gospel of Judas casts doubt on the traditional belief. That is why it is not a part of the canon. It contradicts what the 39 books of the New Testament say. The Gospel of Judas was never accepted by the early church as authentic. It was considered heretical. Your statement that it casts doubt on the New Testament teaching is like having a news bulletin to tell us that water is wet. Now tell us something that isn't so obvious.

Then you post "Expert doubts 'Gospel of Judas' Revelation" and tell us that they could be lying. Why would they lie? People who are scholars depend upon their reputation in order to having standing within the academic community. So much of their work is peer-reviewed articles and journals. If they deliberately lie, they lose credibility. I think you are grasping at straws to make the case that the Gospel of Judas is credible.

All in all, I think you don't know what you are talking about.
 CountIbli
Joined: 6/1/2005
Msg: 8
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/25/2007 10:24:00 PM


What is undeniable, according to the Bible, is that Judas betrayed his friend, Jesus, because he was a thief and was promised 30 pieces of silver by the religious leaders.


Where does it say that Judas was a thief or Jesus' friend?



Judas went out and hanged himself.


The Bible is inconsistent about his manner of death.

Of course Jesus didn't exist and Judas was based on the historical person of Judas the Galilean, founder of the Zealots.
 mak68
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 9
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/25/2007 11:02:51 PM
Judas is christianity's whipping boy.
He did what he was supposed to do, betray jesus. Otherwise how could jesus have "sacrificed" himself according to scripture? What would have happened if judas decided, "screw it, I'm not selling or ratting him out"?
According to scripture, the word of god, he was doing what was expected of him, by the prophets and god. I have to wonder at some christians sometimes when they heap derision and scorn on judas. Without him, you wouldn't have your savior.
He was the ultimate fall guy.
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 10
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/26/2007 7:54:40 AM
Count Ibli: It says that Judas was a thief in John 12:4: "But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 'Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.' He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it" (NIV).

As far as Judas being Jesus friend, don't you know how Judas identified Jesus? With a kiss! "Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: 'The one I kiss is the man: arrest him.' Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, ' Greetings, Rabbi!' and kissed him. Jesus replied, ' Friend, do what you came for.' Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him" (Matthew 26:48-51 NIV).

Matthew 271-10 recounts Judas surprise at the fact that Jesus was sentenced to death, his return of the 30 pieces of silver, his suicide by hanging, and the purchase of the "Field of Blood" by the chief priests to bury the indigent.

In Acts 1:15-19 Peter recounts the actions of Judas in betraying Jesus. He says about the death: "(Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity: and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out)" (NIV).

If we put the two accounts together, Matthew tells us that Judas hanged himself. Peter tells us that after Judas' death, the body obviously suffered decay and decomposition. By the time it fell or was cut down, it burst open. I don't think it is reasonable to believe that a living man falls down a bursts open thereby causing his death.

I watch a lot of "Foresenic Files" type programs. I believe that the heat of that environment would promote decomposition. Also the gases that are produced after death can lead to bloating that would account for the body bursting when it hit the ground.

The argument that Jesus didn't exist is always a losing argument.
 mak68
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 11
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/26/2007 9:22:29 AM

The argument that Jesus didn't exist is always a losing argument.

Hardly.
But that is another subject for another topic. If you would like to start another thread concerning the existence of jesus, I would be happy to participate.
 Artz
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 12
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History
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/26/2007 9:50:50 AM
As I have not read the Judas text I can not fully comment. it is an intriguing idea. That Jesus would have arranged the betrayal, possibility to save the lives of his 12 followers. "If the leader is captured then we will spare the others. "
I'm pretty sure that other gnostic text also treat Judas as someone That had a hard but necessary job to perform. If the crucifixion and the resurrection is the center of christian Faith Judas has to be an unsung hero
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 13
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/26/2007 11:26:15 AM
Blaise: There are other threads concerning the existence of Jesus. They go quiet for a while and then pop up from time to time.

Artz: I do not believe that Jesus arranged the betrayal. Jesus, in His deity, knew who would betray Him, but He was not responsible for the actions of Judas. Judas is responsible for his own actions and will be judged for his evil intent. Yes, God used Judas to accomplish His purpose, but that doesn't lessen Judas' culpability in betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

There is no indication in the canonical Gospels that the High Priests had any intention of seizing the other disciples. They only wanted Jesus.
 Artz
Joined: 6/1/2007
Msg: 14
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BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/26/2007 11:59:40 AM
I simply look beyond the connonized gospels for further evidence.
now in the gospels a point is made that Jesus whispers something to Judas and Judas then leaves the room. What did jesus wisper? why even put that in the story? No need to put that " moment" in the story unless it furthers the plot. That to me does hint at something more then th rest of the story.
 mak68
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 15
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/27/2007 12:31:15 AM

Yes, God used Judas to accomplish His purpose, but that doesn't lessen Judas' culpability in betraying Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

But the point is not judas' culpability, but the necessity for judas to do what he did. Without judas, jesus could not have become the "sacrifice". Judas' betrayal of jesus was doing jesus a favor, enabling jesus to fulfill what he needed to do. Without judas, there is NO messiah. For that, he is scorned by most christians that I know of.

In fact, I think it does lessen judas' culpability. Judas was fulfilling prophecy, the word of god, by doing what needed to be done. Your above statement does not make entire sense. God uses judas so he can have himself crucified, thus fulfilling prophecy. God as jesus KNOWS that the betrayer is judas, allows judas to continue in the betrayal because it serves jesus' purpose. Judas is not the only one culpable here.
 suzzzzieQ
Joined: 6/23/2007
Msg: 16
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/27/2007 4:06:26 AM
I think that many Christians are too hard on Ole Judas. Lets not forget that he repented for what he had done. Mathew 27:3. Did God forgive him? Well the Bible does not tell us. But God is always fair we are not the judge..... God is.
 Stinker*Belle
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 17
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/27/2007 4:37:44 AM
I watched a documentary about this very same subject a few months ago and it totally changed my whole way of thinking about the whole thing.
It explained who the bible changed from being really quite "Jewish" in its writings to very anti semetic almost and more pro-roman and catholic.

I do think that there is far more than meets the eye on the whole "Judas what a stinking traitor" idea. Judas went from being Jesus' best mate to traitor according to the bible.. I dont think so myself.

Most Christians hate the idea of anything throwing a spanner in the works for their ideas.
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 18
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/27/2007 7:12:26 AM
Artz: At the Last Supper, Jesus handed Judas some bread dipped in gravy and said, "What you do, do quickly." (See the account in John 13:18-30.)

Judas had already conspired with the chief priests prior to the Last Supper to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Jesus knew from the start which one of the disciples would betray him.

Blaise: Just because Judas was "fulfilling prophecy" does not lessen the sinfulness of his act. In fact, at the supper described in my first paragraph, Jesus says that one of the disciples is going to betray him and that it would be better if that man had never been born.

"Jesus replied, 'The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born'" (Matthew 26:23-24 NIV).

God is sovereign and man is responsible for his own sins. The proper term is "free agency" rather than "free will."

Judas is the only one culpable there because he is the one who conspired with the chief priests to betray Jesus into their hands. Jesus is not culpable because he is not a co-conspirator with Judas. God is not culpable because, even though He foreordains whatsoever comes to pass, "yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established" (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, para. 1).
 CeeeCeee
Joined: 2/14/2007
Msg: 19
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History
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/27/2007 7:40:25 AM
well let me say this, many, many so called religious texts are not part of the "Bible" why??? because mere mortals decided what could or could not go in, not devine intervention..mere men...with an agenda...this christian religion was supposed to be a message of love, forgiveness etc etc etc, but what was it really...mostly illiterate priests who threatened people with dire consequences if they did not worship as the church dictated...that they, the people could not read or write for the most part and the services and texts were in latin it was quite easy to overwhelm and frighten the common population. In its name the church has persecuted so many, tortured, burned at the stake, the witch hunts across Europe in some places wiped out the female population in villages, the crusades was another example of church duplicity, while encouraging all to take up the cross and fight for the holy land, it then persuaded would be crusaders to sign over their property to the church for "safe keeping" in case they did'nt come back, their wives and children could be looked after...well no sooner had the poor crusader mounted horse, then the church was at the door, kicking the family out and confiscating the land, secure in the knowledge that few would return to dispute the matter...and the ultimate irony is this Jesus was a jew, yet the church persecuted his people, the restrictions placed on Jews in Europe was unreal, for instance in Toledo, Spain they lived in a walled ghetto, had to be inside its walls by dusk, had to remain unarmed, easy pickings when ever the Catholic church needed to boost the moral of the common folk, who just walked in and masacred at leisure and then took everything that wasn't nailed down, or how about the popes themselves, vickers of christ...bishop of rome after Peter, hmmm, Peter never was a bishop, he was a jew who did not want to preach to gentiles (us), it is where he and Paul parted company..and the popes well they practiced incest, murder, mistresses, wives, children, u name it...the fact they made women second class citizens seems to be lost on many women today, they still practice this, visit the Vatican and see the nuns are only servants to the men...In Ireland back in the 5th century, women were equals to men, had a say in their lives, the laws were very progressive, but along came the Catholic church and sadly that changed...The church usurped places of worship of other religions like Chartres cathedral in France, once a sacred oak grove of the druids, they usurped saints, such as Columba and Patrick, they knew no bounds, would stop at nothing to gain the control and power and money over the populace..
As for Judas Iscariot thanks to the incompetence of translators and not knowing the meaning of Iscariot it managed to survive without the um amending of the Catholic church...it also brings into question Jesus of Nazareth, Nazareth or Nazerine??? since there was no Nazereth at the time of Jesus, Nazerine would be the correct translation, or closer one, both these words nazerine and iscariot can be said to be something in the order of freedom fighters or terrorists if u happened to be Roman, Jesus's death was not unique, it was the common method of death for those who wished to challenge Rome. when Jesus' brother James became head of the movement we hear little of him, when James himself was murdered, the group splintered, but you can thank Paul, not Jesus for bringing this message to gentiles...and Jesus what was he in fact, much debate surrounds this enimatic figure, but as the son of god, not, we are all sons and daughters.but even he when under close scrutiny from an historical perspective has cracks, for instance the sermon on the mount, not his, but belonged to a sect known as the Essenes, who's spiritual leader was the teacher of righteousness, the nicene creed was dedicated to the teacher, but the catholic church rearranged that to show Jesus instead..people have been duped, manipulated and used by the church for their own ends for centuries, the church as u know it is simply a man made creation of dubious intent...if anyone wishes to take the time and put all dogma and claptrap aside and investigate the church and all things leading to it, their is a wealth of information to hand, and fascinating it is..
 napayshni
Joined: 2/14/2007
Msg: 20
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/27/2007 11:29:54 AM
Now if I have this straight it was all told about before Christ was born what all was going to happen. So if you believe that then yes someone would of had to betray Christ.

So if it was Judas that was what he was suppose to do. If you are one that doesn't believe in free will he had no choice. If you believe in destiny that was what he was born to do.

How do we know that Christ didn't have a deal worked out with Judas? Even Christ knew if he were going to be the messiah that was awaited certain things had to of been fulfilled ending with the crucifixtion. Perhaps Christ wasn't going to leave that for chance. Would that make Christ suicidal or a man going for his own destiny? Or did Christ plan out his own destiny all this you would have to think about.

We have a man that knows hes going to be put to death..he knows everything up to his death. Yet we know he doesn't really want to die..remember his prayer to God in the garden? So what better way to plan something that may look like a death that really isn't ...be in control of everything.

If it wasn't Judas it would of been someone else. If it was part of the big plan why would God hold that against Judas. Without Judas we might not have the new testiment as we know it. We might even have a different Christ figure.

So I guess I would say no Judas was being a good christain soldier and following his directions..either from God or Jesus.

Just my opinions
 mak68
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 21
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/27/2007 11:35:06 AM
Just because Judas was "fulfilling prophecy" does not lessen the sinfulness of his act. In fact, at the supper described in my first paragraph, Jesus says that one of the disciples is going to betray him and that it would be better if that man had never been born.

I did not say that judas was innocent. I said that without him doing what he did, there would be no messiah. You seem to be trying to avoid addressing this point. Evasion noted.


Judas is the only one culpable there because he is the one who conspired with the chief priests to betray Jesus into their hands. Jesus is not culpable because he is not a co-conspirator with Judas.

No. Jesus has knowledge of the betrayal and who is doing the betraying, he allows it to happen because it serves his own end, jesus is culpable. If I know someone is going to be murdered, I know the murderer, and allow it to happen because I will inherit the victim's house and money, I do nothing to stop the murder from happening, I am also culpable. Firstly I am culpable for letting it happen, secondly, I have something to gain from it, thus increasing my culpability.


God is not culpable because, even though He foreordains whatsoever comes to pass,

The fact that you have to use "even though" tells me that you are now trying to excuse his culpability. If he forordains it, not only does he already know who is going to do it, he has made it so of his own hand. Before judas was even born, god knew that judas would do this. If it was forordained, what chance did judas have in the first place?

"yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established" (Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, para. 1).

Let's keep to the bible accounts, and not how certain denominations view and interpret god. I can easily respond to this that according to scripture, Chapter 3 para 1 is in direct opposition to scripture:

yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,

contravenes this:

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


Isaiah aside, you contradict yourself. You claim the betrayal was forordained by god, and then in the next breathe, you quote a confessional that says god is not the author of such things, which is it?
 And Can It Be
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 22
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/29/2007 7:23:39 PM
Blaise: I am well aware of Isaiah 45:7. The NIV translates it as follows:

"I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster."

That puts a little different light on the matter. I looked it up in Strong's Concordance, and it is the Hebrew word "ra" which means "bad--evil, adversity, affliction, calamity," etc. The NIV translates it disaster. I think that is a good choice considering the definitions of "adversity, affliction, and calamity." It is a contrast--prosperity and disaster. In other words, God is sovereign over the affairs of men. He is the one who gives us everything we have. He is the one who sets boundaries on the times we will possess it. God ultimately controls all of creation, but God is not the author of sin.

God even gives us our lot in life as it says in Proverbs. God gives some people good health and other people suffer from poor health by His Holy Providence. God is free to dispense His gifts as He sees fits because we are His creation.

To answer your question, it is both. The betrayal was foreordained by God yet God is not the author of sin. As the Confession stated, "neither is violence offered to the will of the creature." Judas acted out of greed when he approached the high priests and offered to betray Jesus for money. The sin was already in his heart. God did not put it there. God did not increase the sin or tempt Judas in any way; Judas acted alone and is solely responsible for betraying Jesus. Satan entered Judas after Jesus handed him the bread at the Last Supper so Satan bears some responsibility, but God does not bear responsibility for the sin.

God ordains all things that come to pass, but He does not ordain them contingently. He knows that they will come to pass. It is not a "maybe" situation. God knows how the creatures such as Judas will behave in a given situation. He foresees their actions but He does not force them to sin. God cannot be tempted with evil nor does He tempt anyone with evil. It is a mystery how God can be sovereign yet ordain all things knowing that the creature will sin. Lest you say that is a cop out, we don't claim to know everything about God because all things are not knowable. There are some mysteries in the Christian religion.
 mak68
Joined: 10/9/2007
Msg: 23
BIBLE WRONG! Judas was a Patriot- NOT a Traitor!
Posted: 10/29/2007 10:43:51 PM
The betrayal was foreordained by God yet God is not the author of sin.

foreordained from here:

fore·or·dain (fôr'ôr-dan', for'-) Pronunciation Key
tr.v. fore·or·dained, fore·or·dain·ing, fore·or·dains
To determine or appoint beforehand; predestine.


How do you reconcile the two so that it makes sense? You are saying that god has already determined that judas will do this but he is not the author of it? That is cognitive dissonance.


God did not increase the sin or tempt Judas in any way; Judas acted alone and is solely responsible for betraying Jesus.

If god had not forordained it, would judas have done it? Would it even be judas in that situation? Can we know for sure? I don't think so. But that god has already deemed it so and determined it to be, he also has a hand in it.


God ordains all things that come to pass, but He does not ordain them contingently. He knows that they will come to pass. It is not a "maybe" situation. God knows how the creatures such as Judas will behave in a given situation.

But now you are not giving the full meaning of foreordained here. Not only does he KNOW that they will come to pass, he, as the definition states, APPOINTS beforehand, he causes it to be so.


God ordains all things that come to pass, but He does not ordain them contingently. God can be sovereign yet ordain all things knowing that the creature will sin. Lest you say that is a cop out, we don't claim to know everything about God because all things are not knowable.

But I have no choice but to say it is a cop out ACIB. I'm not saying it's a cop out by calling it a mystery because I want to "stick it" to god. If we now must rely on calling this a mystery, now we are saying "it just is". Even taking into account it is a mystery, god has still predestined this to happen, he is partly the cause of it. Of course judas' actions are cause as well. But how can we negate gods responsibility in this if he has predestined it?
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