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 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 1
The Demonization of SexPage 1 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
... now that I have your attention ...

Nietzsche stated, “Christianity gave Eros poison to drink; he did not die of it but degenerated into a vice.”

How did something so natural as sex and sexuality become so sinful within predominantly male dominated religions?

Is this sin based in sexism?

What has been the backlash (if any) on cultures engrained in the demonization of sex?
 twobits45
Joined: 12/4/2005
Msg: 2
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 12:17:26 PM
Personally, my obervation has been that there was a time when it was "demonized." Possibly around the time of Nietzche. I think the church has realized its error and has made many efforts to deal with it. I think it has actually gone to the other extreme in many cases in that it is now quite the opposite. Many churches are now over tolerant. I do not see it as "sexist" in any way, as prominent men and women in church history have "demonized" it.

PS and off topic, nice pic, BTW:-) (Canadian, of course)
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 3
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 12:28:51 PM
Well I believe there are two things that I would like to bring up.

Firstly, man comes from the mammals species and a lot of the animalistic and lustful sex drives was primitive man's way to ensure the continuation of his species. I believe monogamous relationships were much more rare...(witness the concubines and multiple wives in the old testament).
As man matured to a higher conscious level (the ability to think, analyze etc.), the sexual animalistic side was still there but was repressed. Partly, it is this struggle of duality, (passion vs. rationalism) that influenced man as he struggled with his moral and ethics code.
Now if we look at the early Church figures such as Paul, Ambrose and Jerome, we find a deep sense of misogyny that affected each of the writers which spilled over into their works. These writers were responsible for developing the theory that women could not control themselves sexually. It is the reason that the highest attainable position a woman in the church can obtain is sisterhood - in which she spends her life with a vow of chastity. It is a middle eastern concept which has spread strongly onto Islam where women are required to be covered completely with cloth. It is also prevalent in Judaism where women have to sit in a designated place at a different part of the synagogue (the more orthodox ones anyways).

It is these developments that have demonized sex and women. It is Eve who is blamed for sin of mankind. Because she is the one allegedly at fault, the bible teaches that she should subject herself to her man and remain in silence.

I Timothy 2:11-14
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
 T Leef
Joined: 4/12/2006
Msg: 4
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 12:37:38 PM
I'm doing a study right now on wives and Christian thought. You're going to have to look at a couple things here.
1a is the males protecting their females from other men, in order to assure that the children she produces are his. This is ancient.
1b is the females wanting the fathers of their children to take care of their children and not a whole bunch of other women's babies... (it's in all of our greedy genes?)
2 is the concept of the virgin Mary and the optimization of virginity among men & women starting in the late middle ages.
3 And then, you're right, the perpetuation of the ideas in the catholic church. (before Luther and Protestantism)

that's just a bit, in a nut shell.

Maybe we should ask the men - why don't they want us sleeping around, like they do.
 Blueberry
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 5
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 1:35:13 PM
Mamma always told me not to have sex..... It could lead to dancing
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 6
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 2:56:24 PM
Blue
did you listen to your mamma? heheheheheh
 kathyb42262
Joined: 3/11/2006
Msg: 7
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 6:14:10 PM
Did I miss something? We're not supposed to have sex? (EVER???) Well, then I guess I'll just take my dolls and dishes and go home :(
 Oversoul7
Joined: 1/26/2005
Msg: 8
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 7:16:45 PM
Anywhere a moral code can be placed, you will have the 'demonization' along with the 'condemnation.'
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 9
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 7:20:42 PM
Right, T Leef. Way back, one could be pretty sure who mother was. One could not be that sure, however, who father was. So, controlling women was important for a male dominated society.

Where does the demonization of sex by the church enter here? After all, within monogamous, straight marriages… males would be affected by this demonization as well as women. Why wasn’t sex “ok” even within a monogamous relationship?

Centuries of blaming, guilt building and threats going on by churches, as robertj64 points out...for what purpose? Inhibition of sexual impulse has been a keynote of western morality. Even today, it is difficult for many to understand the notion of sex as an experience of divine or sacred pleasure… to be enjoyed by all. It is a religious celebration in some belief systems, why not male dominated ones?
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 10
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 7:50:18 PM
Breaca
I think the church position is that sex is ok only for procreating. They will not support pre-marital sex or any birth control methods which go against the procreation. That sex provides pleasure is only a secondary benefit with the overall priority and importance for pro-creation.

I do not know if I would go as far as the demonizing of sex but there certainly was and still is a close relationship of sex with sin...
 RDtoo
Joined: 1/30/2005
Msg: 11
view profile
History
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 9:15:01 PM
Demonizing sex? LOL. The Bible is full of stories about sex. The Song of Solomon is a celebration of sex! Now if you are just talking about sleeping around being a beautiful thing, then my answer would be: syphillis, HIV, genital warts, crabs, etc, etc, etc.
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 12
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 9:25:58 PM
Isn't it something we can all feel guilty about?

What do you think about that as an answer to why the demonization of sex, Breaca?
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 13
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/12/2006 9:44:45 PM

What has been the backlash (if any) on cultures engrained in the demonization of sex?


That's a very good question, I would love to hear your thoughts on this subject, Breaca.
 Breaca
Joined: 10/26/2005
Msg: 14
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 1:01:48 AM

Breaca
I think the church position is that sex is ok only for procreating. They will not support pre-marital sex or any birth control methods which go against the procreation. That sex provides pleasure is only a secondary benefit with the overall priority and importance for pro-creation.

I do not know if I would go as far as the demonizing of sex but there certainly was and still is a close relationship of sex with sin...


Just to be clear, my comment was not about today's church.

“Love not the world, neither things that are in the world .. for all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father” - First Book of John. I believe that this type of sentiment lead to ludicrous claims in the 19th century that sex should never be indulged in more than once a month, that any greater amount was a “prostitution of the matrimonial life.” .. and other Victorian silliness.

Perhaps my use of the word demonization instead of sin has caused a problem here. The demonization I had in mind had more to do with how women’s sexuality seemed twisted by the church into a claim that women were the Devil’s decoy. Hence, the demonization.
 Blueberry
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 15
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 8:37:45 AM
As RD mentioned, the Bible celebrates marital sex, and even devoted a whole book to it. So it's not Christ or the Bible or Christians who demonized sex.

However the institution of the old Catholic church did for quite some time, and to some degree still does. (And seriously, dontchya think it's most likely that all that happened in the first place because some guys with little weewee's were afraid that if women enjoyed sex they might realize the grass was greener and leave them??? lol) There is a very big distinction there. One corrupt institution does not represent the entire faith. 1 John does not demonize sex in any way.

Yes the Bible does speak clearly and strongly against adultery, fornication, etc. But it does not speak against sex. Sex is a gift from God, and something to be enjoyed. I think you'll find that Christians understand that, even if some institutions do not.
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 16
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 10:33:44 AM
Blueberry is it just me or, according to Matthew 5:28, are practically all men and a lot of women going to hell?

Matthew 5:28 specifically states that the intent is what makes one an adultery or fornicator. I would not think it a stretch to say that even those who are considering marriage commit this lust in their heart before they make a public commitment. Therefore who should not follow the advise Matthew attributes to Jesus in verse 30?

Do you really think that anyone who looks at a woman with lust in His or Her heart *"should be cast into hell"? Or do you think one should try to eliminate this natural response to a visual sexual stimulus by simply following the advise in verse 30 and remove an eye or limb because that is much better that going to hell for ever.



Matthew 5:27-32 (KJV)

27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

* 29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


Hey Blue, can a woman put away her husband for a lustful look at the opposite sex too. Also does verse 28 mean what it says a “woman” only. That would imply that it ok for a man to look on a man with lust? Does this support homosexual sex as not being something that would endanger ones eternal soul of hell? Feel free to speculate on your response even if your speculation has little or no scriptural basis. I personally feel that it is our heart that is where our creator will speak to us, so you won't offend me. Yes, that's right, the same heart that Matthew 5:28 says is capable of entertaining lustful looks for a woman.

If this doesn't convince you that the Bible does demonize sex, don't worry, the Bible has more words attributed to Jesus that may lead you to believe Jesus doesn't want us to have sex at all, ever, with anyone. You know the verses I’m referring to don’t you?
 Blueberry
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 17
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 10:58:37 AM
Oh Tim, still twisting and baiting, are ya? Sorry my friend, we've been down this road before, so this time you're on your own. You know full well what I believe about the Bible, context, and this subject. We've already discussed it extensively in other threads and emails. So I am not going to waste my time going through it again. Perhaps you can find someone else to play the game with...
 Robertj64
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 18
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 11:28:34 AM
I would be interested to know what passage is being discussed here. Anyone want to oblige me....Tim? or Blue my frisky little feline friend?
 smoochiepooches
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 19
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 6:29:34 PM
Something is bad or evil only if you intend for it to be so. Your intent is what manifests evil.

Were Adam and Eve married ?

If these scripts were true, there would be a lot of one handed, one eyed men walking around. Hey, Maybe that is what that song was about " The one eyed ,one horned flying purple people eater" Kidding !!!!!

Sex is a loving union between two people. A closeness like no other. The Demon aspects of sex are those that try to control, manipulate and play games just to get the physical gratification that they ( in the singular context ) desire.

Intention is what makes something good or evil !
Smoochie
 smoochiepooches
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 20
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 6:30:19 PM
Something is bad or evil only if you intend for it to be so. Your intent is what manifests evil.

Were Adam and Eve married ?

If these scripts were true, there would be a lot of one handed, one eyed men walking around. Hey, Maybe that is what that song was about " The one eyed ,one horned flying purple people eater" Kidding !!!!!

Sex is a loving union between two people. A closeness like no other. The Demon aspects of sex are those that try to control, manipulate and play games just to get the physical gratification that they ( in the singular context ) desire.

Intention is what makes something good or evil !
Smoochie
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 21
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 6:30:27 PM
Hi Robert, I was the first to bring any passages of scripture in to the mix. Breaca, I think, is just saying that Christians demonize Sex for various reasons.

I pointed out that logic would lead to the above scriptures from Matthew concerning what Matthew contributes to Jesus saying that thinking of sex could get you a one way ticket to hell.

Seems like I wasted my time trying to ponder with Blueberry, she obviously doesn't want to share ideas with me anymore.

Thanks for asking Robert, it would be nice if you read my above post because I don't think the person I composed it for even took the time to ponder the logic in it. I believe someone has their mind made up already.

Blueberry I look forward to your articulate and well composed comments. Please forgive me, I will try not to ask anymore questions that conflict with your beliefs. All I ask is that you consider where you are posting your thoughts and what kind of responses do you expect to get here? If you let me know this I can better respond to your comments, perhaps in a way you would find pleasing, if you like.
 smoochiepooches
Joined: 3/2/2005
Msg: 22
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 6:32:37 PM
Sorry about the double post. All this sex talk got me a little button happy.
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 23
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 6:37:50 PM
I so much agree with you on this one Smoochie. I know that marriage was a certificate of ownership, of a woman, back in the Biblical days and not to removed from today's culture either.

No one likes to feel like a piece of meat for someone else's pleasure when one is not in the mood to please. I'm sure that back in the old fashioned days women had no choice in the matter and no laws to protect her rights. Is that the old fashioned ways some really want to go back to?
 Blueberry
Joined: 5/14/2005
Msg: 24
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 7:35:42 PM
Tim, obviously you can ask any questions you like. This is an open forum, after all. But when you keep asking me the same questions over and over, and essentially ignore what I have already posted in response to your same questions in the past, then I also have the right to choose not to repeat myself. I'm sure there are plenty of others here who would be happy to discuss the issues you have brought up. I've already done so in other threads, so I'm going to refrain from rehashing our previous discussions. I hope you can respect that.
 tim49250
Joined: 2/9/2005
Msg: 25
The Demonization of Sex
Posted: 4/13/2006 7:59:03 PM
Blueberry you don't have to respond to my questions for me to unconditionally love and respect you. You already had that and I hope I can listen better to you in the future.

I know I'm beating a dead horse here by again asking you the same question but it seems unless you respond to this one I will not be able to converse with you on any level except to say what a nice comment Blueberry. So can I give it one and only one more try?


what kind of responses do you expect to get here? If you let me know this I can better respond to your comments, perhaps in a way you would find pleasing, if you like.
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