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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 3:50:27 PM | | This is a question I've been wondering about for some time now. Would a woman be with a sweet guy who was responsible and not looking for a handout and would treat her with all respect, affection, love etc. but didn't have a thick wallet or would you be with a guy who had money to spare, but treated you like trash and disrespected you and abused you? I also ask this question because I've known many woman to be with an abusive guy even though he DIDN'T have money.....go figure. | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 3:56:38 PM | It's not much a money question as a self esteem question.
I've known super hot babes who get treated like shit by white trash broke **stards, and their friends dated rich nice guys........
In my life, I've discovered that there is a significantly high number of women who just stay with someone, even if they treat her like shit, just to be with someone - and wont leave him because they either a) fear him or b) dont think they can do any better.
Its a person to person basis but - from me asking women this exact question, they'd rather be broke.. (or so they say) and be with someone who'll treat them with respect than use them as a soccerball. | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 4:12:52 PM | Here's the rule of thumb, my friend.
"Women reluctantly leave nice guys."
"Women reluctantly stay with jerks."
What women really want are balanced men. Men who know the fine line between being nice and being a jerk.
Nice guys can't keep women because they are boring and present no challenge. Attraction isn't a choice (thank you David D) and that's a fact. Jerks only keep women because they display a lot of the same qualities of a balanced man but deep down they are insecure and not very confident.
But a balanced man, well -- that's what all men should strive to be. Here's an example. I posted this before:
1.) THE NICE GUY: Any man who exibits any combination of the following behaviors,
a.) Low self-esteem; doesn't value himself highly. Might be out of past failures or other deep-rooted emotional issues
b.) Constantly seeks approval/validation/attention from others, usually out of a low amount of self-worth (See a.)
c.) Insecure; doesn't feel that a high quality person should like him (See a. so is constantly fearful that he will lose them
d.) Controlling/posessive/domineering/clingy/suffocating behavior; overcalling, etc.. (See c.)
e.) Idealizes potential mates (overlooks flaws AKA "Puts them on a pedastal") as well as relationships (invests large amounts of emotion/time/energy/money into relationships early on)
f.) Doesn't take responsibility for his actions
g.) Claims he's victimized; attributes his own flaws and shortcomings to external circumstances and/or other people (See f.)
h.) Self-concious/nervous around attrative women; Cares what others think, doesn't want anyone to dissaprove of him (See b.)
i.) Strong amounts of jealously (See d.); makes people feel guilty when they enjoy time WITHOUT him
k.) Kisses-up/trys to be totally agreeable/submissive to try and "score points" with a woman
l.) Doesn't lead; he's submissive, always wants to make sure EVERYTHING he's doing is okay with her; over-apologetic
m.) Doesn't draw boundaries; gives women whatever they want in return for love/sex/approval; accepts second-class behavior for the possible reward of the aforementioned. Doesn't say "No" very often; doesnt want to cause any "waves" (See h.)
n.) Poor/weak body language; little or no eye contact, leans foward out of nervousness, fast/jerky movements, nervous ticks/figety habits, hands in pockets, bad posture/doesn't stand up straight
o.) Is easily emotionally destabilized; gets worked up over meaningless things
p.) Common use of self-deprecating humor to get approval/pity/empathy (See b.)
q.) Feels guilt for his natural sexual desires, maybe even LOOKING an a woman
r.) Whines/complains; usually to get pity/empathy
s.) Favors short-sighted/instant gratification thinking
The "nice-guy" is the personification of attributes in a man that women ultimately DO NOT feel attraction for.
Any man who wants to have genuine sucess with women should AVOID these at all costs
Women all around the globe, despite different backgrounds and upbringing, generally respond the same way to this type of man.
Nice-guys almost always act victimized and attribute their lack of sucess to outside factors they claim are out of their control. They think that it's not their fault (I.E "SHE'S IMMATURE FOR LIKING BAD BOYS" "SHE DOESNT RECOGNIZE GOOD GUYS WHEN SHE SEES THEM" "SHE HAS ISSUES" Sound familiar?). Many nice-guys harbor a [secret] belief that they're better than other men ("I bought her 20 roses on the 2nd date" "I waited in the rain for her for 3 hours" "I lent her money when she went over her credit card limit). However, the reality is that if you're doing something [NICE] to get something in return, you are being MANIPULATIVE. Nice guys will go through their entire lives living in a continual state of self-deception; convinced that they are "Good guys" and that they are better than others.
The fact of the matter is that nice guys do not have traits that make them appealing/attractive to the opposite sex.
The lack everything in a man that practically every woman wants. And that man is...
2.) THE REAL MAN: Any man who exibits any combination of the following behaviors.
a.) Has a HIGH amount of self-esteem; views himself as high-status
b.) Doesnt need any outside approval or attention from ANYONE to be happy
c.) Unself-concious; doesnt care what others thinks of him
d.) Is NEVER insecure or nervous (espcially around desireable women), and he sub-communicates this in every little way
e.) Self-confident; NEVER arrogant or insecure, POSSIBLY slightly-cocky. May tease women in a friendly way
f.) Does not let outside events/other peoples opinions (See c.) emotionally destabilize him; is always in control of his emotions
g.) Takes full responsibility for all of his actions
h.) Never whines or complains to get approval or empathy; always accepts the world for exactly what it is
i.) Judges people based on character and personality.. NOT outward appearance/material items
j.) Can be brutally honest (while still being respectful) with everyone(including himself) and is not afraid to put someone in their place when they are out of line; isn't afraid to speak his mind
k.) Isn't afraid to draw boundaries
l.) Mature.. in every sense of the word
m.) Has a PURPOSE in life that he never betrays and pro-actively/ambitiously works towards
n.) Goal-oriented thinker; favors long-term gratification over short (See l.)
o.) Isn't afraid to lead and take control of a situation; doesnt have hesitancy moving foward
p.) Never feels ashamed for his sexual desires & needs; always sexually confident
q.) Is always "himself", and is content with whatever that is (See a.)
r.) Doesn't tolerate disrespect to himself, his property, or his time
s.) Doesn't let women use their sexual power to get anything (whether it be money, or self-respect) from him
t.) Loyal
u.) Compassionate
v.) Independant
w.) Is perfectly happy and fufilled being single; sure, he'd like to find an attractive/beautiful/intelligent woman to spend time with but he doesnt NEED it
x.) Comfortable in the presence of other high-status and/or sophisticated people
y.) Doesnt experience jealousy; is perfectly fine when a woman exersizes her independence and encourages it; enjoys it when others shine
z.) Strong/confident/powerful body language (Stands up straight, doesnt break eye contact, doesnt have any nervous ticks, doesnt have quick/jerky movements, leans back out of self-confidence and lack of nervousness)
a1.) Doesn't feel the need to compensate for himself through gifts, expensive restaurants (Doing either of these things from a place of confidence and high-value is on the other hand OKAY)
a2.) DOESNT invest all his emotion/time into a relationship too early on. He remains an ambiguous challenge
The real man is the polar opposite of the "nice-guy". He is the manfestation of traits in a man that woman universally & naturally feel the emotion of attraction for.
Throughout history, real men have been featured in movies and literature.
The following quote was taken from 'Dangerous Men and Adventerous Women', a book about the appeal of romance novels to women,
"Given that conflict is a requirement of all good fiction, especially
good genre fiction, and given that the conflict must arise out
of the primary focus of the story, it is understandable that in a
romance novel conflict must exist between the hero and heroine.
The hero in a romance is the most important challenge the
heroine must face and conquer. The hero is her real problem in the
book, not whatever trendy issue or daring adventure is also going
on in the subplot. In some way, shape, or form, in some manner
either real or perceived on the heroine's part, the hero must be a
source of emotional and, yes, sometimes physical risk. He must
present a genuine threat.
The hero must be part villain or else he won't be much of a
challenge for a strong woman. The heroine must put herself at risk
with him if the story is to achieve the level of excitement and the
particular sense of danger that only a classic romance can provide.
And the flat truth is that you don't get much of a challenge for
a heroine from a sensitive, understanding, right-thinking "modern"
man who is part therapist, part best friend, and thoroughly
tamed from the start. You don't get much of a challenge for her
from a neurotic wimp or a good-natured gentleman-saint who
never reveals a core of steel. And it is that core of steel at the
center of a good romance hero that makes it all worth while."
(A -perfect- example of a real man would be Rhett Butler in Gone With The Wind.
He's never afraid to point out when someone is acting childish or out of line
He's always comfortable in the face of danger or other high status people
He doesn't care what others think of him
And many more..)
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[On a side note] women don't have control over who they are attracted to, the same way that men don't have control over which women turn them on. It's a completely unconcious process that we dont have GENUINE control over. So beliefs like "Once she figures how I feel about her, she'll have no choice but to love me!" could not be further from the truth. Women cannot feel the powerful gut-level emotion of attraction for you through LOGICAL resoning/telling her all your feelings/"winning her over" with gifts, etc...
This was a post taken from this thread. (http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t53288/)
"My first bf was absolutely in love with me. He was the nicest guy I ever went out with. Total gentleman. Sincere. A great listener. Handsome. With all of this I let him go. Why? I still don't know!!! Up to this point he still tells everyone I was the one broke his heart, his first and only love. He was the closest to perfect that there can be. He stayed in love with me for 7 years and he has always thrown it in my face that I let go of someone who really cared for me and loved me to date guys that were jerks. He says I like the bad life. He is a real good friend now, so he tell me how he sees it. He always asks me why did I leave him. He tells me that I like bad a**es, which might be true!!! Why? Again, I don't know Sometimes I think he was TOO nice, too perfect. I wish I could have made my heart fall in love with him instead, everything would be different."
This is a perfect example of logic vs. emotion. Her logical brain says she SHOULD feel attracted to him, but there just isnt that spark; that elusive chemistry that men strive for and that women crave.
And I should metion, that he sounds like a victimized nice-guy, who is STILL trying to get her back and STILL seeking approval and sympathy from her (by rubbing it in her face and reminding her).
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There's no denying that women respond strongy to these kind of men. The real man is a archetype for the next kind of man..
3.) "THE BAD BOY"
The bad boy is a man who posses certain appealing qualities of a real-man, but packaged along with negative traits
He may be physically and/or emotionally abusive, harbor bad-habits (drug abuse, alcholism, etc..), objectify or
degrade women, etc..
The bad boy is appealing because he shares traits with the real-man.
The bad boy and real the real man should NEVER get confused. They are two very different creatures; one is a mature man while the other is simply a boy in a mans body; a neotenous adult. | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 4:36:54 PM | Well, from a woman's point of view..........abuse will never enter my life again, promise I made after the 2nd time. How about the guy with no money and abusive? Yes there are women that chose to have the things in life that money can buy and have the low self esteem that allows them to stay in an abusive relationship but there are alot of stronger women out there now that will not put up with any form from anyone.
Sweet guy, low income............believe me, they will be rewarded with a wonderful woman. | |
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phn4u
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Joined: 4/18/2006
Msg: 10 | |
| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 8:38:59 PM | Women who stay with abusive men....much more complicated than you think. There is control, she has no money, low self esteem, he belittles her, makes her feel worthless....spiral circle downward.
It takes an incredible amount of strenght for either sex to leave an abusive relationship...no simple answer as the problems are deep rooted and manipulative.No one chooses to be in an abusive situation and most don't finf there way out until something really bad happens to them or their kids. Very sad,
I myself will go for a kind , nice , man , with a big heart over a mean man with a big wallet. | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 8:45:11 PM | Money does not make a guy abusive. They do some power tripping though.  I've had my share of the money types. They tend to think you cannot possibly NOT want them cause they do have money. Damn shame too, cause all them perks looked nice. But what price do we put on being something a guy owns? Mine is pretty damn high, as I never met one with enough money to do it yet.
Remember Money absolutely corrupts, and usually corrupts absolutely. Sorry but I've seen it a lot in my time. Pick the average guy and you'll get a nicer person. | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 8:57:51 PM | First time every responding to this forum thing.. Just couldnt resist. I have recently left an abusive relationship with no money and not many choices. You are right you dont even realize ur in the abusive relationship until the spiral continues downward. In fact i didnt know how to get out cause it meant losing everything. Who want to put there kids in a shelter. I learn from day to day how bad it was. And no money in the world can replace the shame that abuse leaves u with. Resources are still tight to support women or men break free from these patterns. The man i was with didnt have alot of money but boy i didnt believe i could survive without him. I take a deep breathe each day, that i survive without him and without the pain of the relationship. Nice guy i hope i find him. and his wallet will have little signifigance. Quote Anne Murray.. And even tho we aint got money.. there must be a thousand songs based on love alone..But real love.. well that is PRICELESS!    | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 8:59:41 PM | If only that was the thing that kept women with abusers. Sadly these guys get their hol don a woman and it has nothing to do with money. Seems that once women are "broken" by the abuser they stay with them and has nothing to do with money. I have seen guys that are penniless treat their girlfriends like crap. Its really sick, its like the women have been brainwashed or are under a spell. Women are often made to feel like it is their fault and that the guy doesnt mean to be an abuser they just push him too far. Its really scarry when you hear a friend tell you that. Its meant to be one of those things that happens to people far way and not in your life. Warning to all women, if a guy ever raises his hand to you then get out and NEVER return. If he does it once he will do it again and again and again until either he leaves you or he kills you. Yeah that sounds extreme but it happens far too often and it has nothing to do with social status or education.
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/1/2006 9:56:49 PM | | That's quite a post there, kitsguy4u, lol but I feel I have more of the traits in the second list, BUT with a few from the first as well. But not the weak one's. I mean, if you have all the traits of the first list, then you're not a nice guy, you're a "weak guy". lol I'm just saying that you can be CALLED a nice guy, and stil have the traits of the second list. Know what I mean? All of you have made very good points. And I also believe that this "control trip" that these spineless "bad boys" get off on can and does hurt the woman they're with emotionally as well as physically. We may tell/beg them to just, "leave him", but to the majority of the woman that are going through this, no matter how strong and inependant they may look on the outside, it's hard for them to just leave him. You all just read from the previous posts above the many reasons why. I'm just hoping that the woman out there that are still putting up with these abuses find a quick way OUT. I mean, I understand the quote, "Love is blind", but does love have to hurt? and like this? | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/2/2006 8:22:47 AM | Jabarian, very well done, long, but WELL done. *applauds*
I thought I was the nice guy type but i'm actually the real man (97%) with some nice guy (3%). Now I understand why my lady loves me so much. :)
Sometimes I still can't shake the notion that i'm swimming in a dream with my lady, and she feels the same way. It's pretty dang thrilling to both of us, but we know we can only take things one day at a time, which is working very very well.
SL | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/2/2006 10:06:15 AM | Wow Jarbarian....well thought out and well said.
I want to cut and paste this and send it to my exhusband. Ironically because he fits most criteria under the "nice guy" category, he will probably not recognize that this is him or think there's anything at fault with his personality. (definitely not good with accountability)
But I will keep it anyways and maybe when he's ready, he will accept it when he becomes a "real man".
Thanks.
j4f
ps. Yes, SL you are a real man...my man. :) | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/2/2006 10:16:09 AM | Dont always take it personally,until you have walked in these woman's foot steps.
(moccassin's)You dont know her story.It may be she has the emotional guit, about depriving her children of the so called adult father.However god only gave us one set of parents, we have to make the most.Out of the hand we are dealt with. I feel that some women might stay until they get stronger emotional,financially, and spiritually. I too must applaud Jabarian,You said more than a mouthfull.
I personally dont think not many women want that abusive man!They take time to build up they're circle of friends because they usually have become Isolated also.From the controlling behaviour,they do feel through time that they are attractive enough for those Sweet guys also !!!
Just my thoughts here... | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 5/3/2006 12:13:06 AM | | I just want to apologize to all especially to jarbarian and kitsguy4u for mixing up your name's on my last post. I meant to say, "jarbarian", not kitsguy4u. Sorry once again. My bad, lol | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 6/20/2006 3:00:19 AM | The question about ANYBODY who stays in an abusive relationship has perplexed for centuries.
And it's now been joined by two others.
In the face of a lifetimes research by womens shelter manager Erin Pizzey it's now been found that women who flee abusive relationships walk over hot coals to get back into them.
And that even if they do break up they end up in a second or third abusive relationship.
It's nothing at all to do with money. | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 6/20/2006 3:19:56 AM | I was MARRIED to an abusive guy with a low income, would never ever do it again! I wouldnt date an abusive, mean guy I dont care what he had in his wallet, or anywhere else for that matter. Give me a good guy, regardless of income!!!!!! | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 6/20/2006 4:20:26 AM | | take the guy with high income cuz atleast he'll be able to pay for your therapy and hospital bills. all men are abusive in some shape or form because thier human don't expect them to be perfect. | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 6/20/2006 4:22:43 AM | | money doesnt come into it,would rather be with someone that treated me with respect and was faithfull and honest and take the bus, than a right git that drives a flash car,theres more to life than money and material things | |
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| Sweet guy, low income OR abusive guy, high income
Posted: 6/22/2006 11:44:50 PM | jarbarian, I'm just adding to your post above.
Ladies, don't EVER pick $$ & abuse over nice & low income.
Guys, this is what women want & what we all should strive to be for a woman... Some of us already have it down pat, others need work - you know which one you are...
WHAT IS A REAL MAN?
What does it actually MEAN? And is it important?
There are a lot of aspects to a REAL MAN. Here are a few that are most important:
-Status
-Lack of Insecurities
-Standards
-Experience
-Humor
-Unpredictability
-Leadership
-Challenge
...and the list goes on.
It's actually not easy to describe a REAL MAN in a few sentences... but... a woman can recognize one INSTANTLY.
THE MISTAKE A LOT OF MEN MAKE
A common mistake that men make is taking something that a woman SAYS that she wants, and doing it TOO MUCH, thinking that if "A little bit is good, then more must be better". For instance, a woman SAYS that she likes guys who are "thoughtful". So you go out and buy her a bunch of gifts, and give her cute cards every time you see her, and call her all the time to tell her that you miss her.
What happens? She leaves you for her jerk ex-boyfriend!
Huh?
This would be kind of like a woman saying "My favorite food is chocolate" and then you thinking it would be good to feed her chocolate for every meal just because it's her favorite... or adding chocolate to every single dish you make for her from now on... and forgetting that 97% of what she eats still needs to be OTHER FOODS.
Women don't MEAN what you THINK they mean when they talk about what they want in a man. And if you take the things women say too literally, you're going to wind up shooting yourself in the foot.
WHAT WOMEN REALLY MEAN...
Consider this your own personal "female language translator". Refer to it often.
WHEN A WOMAN SAYS...
"I want a guy who is sensitive."
WHAT SHE REALLY MEANS IS...
"I want a guy who is busy doing his own thing in life, who has goals and objectives... who has passion for things. If we're out together, he always keeps me on my toes, and I'm always wondering what's going to happen next. He's challenging, interesting, and funny. I would really like it if he was also sensitive enough to know when I need a hug, or to be held, or when I want him to make love to me." Does this make sense?
Again, she's not imagining a picture of a boring, predictable, Wussy who is sharing his hurt feelings because he's so "sensitive". Big difference.
WHEN A WOMAN SAYS...
"I want a guy who is in touch with his feelings/emotionally stable."
WHAT SHE REALLY MEANS IS...
"I want a guy who is strong-willed, and who doesn't get upset about petty things... a guy who can deal with the fact that I freak out emotionally sometimes... and who knows how to be cool when things are tough. But I also want him to be in touch with his feelings so that:
1) He doesn't repress his emotions and then eventually kill 10 people in his workplace, and
2) When he's intimate with me, and he feels a passionate rush... he'll grab me and make love to me like a beast!"
What she's NOT doing is making a picture of a meek, afraid guy who calls all the time to ask "Do you like me? Because I sure like you".
WHEN A WOMAN SAYS:
"I want a guy who's a good communicator."
WHAT SHE REALLY MEANS IS...
"I want a guy who doesn't talk all the time, because he knows how to let me know what's on his mind without using words. I want the kind of guy that can touch me in a certain way and I feel tingles all over my body. And I want the kind of guy that can say things in a way that I understand... not crudely and man-like."
WHAT ABOUT "SEXY"?
You'll probably think that they mean they want a PHYSICALLY ATTRACTIVE man when they say this. Sometimes this is exactly what they mean when they use the term "sexy". But most of the time, women mean something TOTALLY different when they use the term "sexy".
A woman generally bases more of her life around what she FEELS than a man does. And the concept of "sexy" is usually used to describe the way a man makes a woman FEEL than it is used to describe how HE LOOKS.
If a woman says "I want a man who is a good communicator",
what she REALLY means is: "I want a guy who already has his life together, is interesting, unpredictable, dominant, funny, healthy, charismatic, confident, and loyal... who is ALSO a good communicator." The REALITY is that when a woman says one of these "I want a guy who" statements, she actually has an IDEAL guy in mind, who ALSO happens to be a good communicator.
She's NOT imagining Homer Simpson sitting on his couch reading a book on communication. The reality of this situation is that what women REALLY want is a man who makes them feel the emotional and physical response that tripp ATTRACTION within. They want a man who makes them FEEL IT.
It's about being the "the man" described thru-out the above that MAKES him "sexy" because she "feels" it for him by him BEING this type of man.
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