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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 12:15:29 AM | Here's the debate:
Are humans truly 'special'? (IE: Seperate from other lifeforms)
Or does our being special merely stem from our own Pride? | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 1:54:34 AM | | I'd say all lifeforms are special but in different ways, I think humans are special in that we we have the most responsibility for our planet...all other lifeforms live more harmoniously with nature, humans dont always, especially if its not profitable, we live by an artificial system that tries to override nature, we fight it and change it and destroy it. we do have a false sense of pride, but thats because power is easily corruptible. but humanity has done a lot of good too and still does, but our selfish tendencies are more noticeable...newspapers sell more with negative stories in them. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 10:31:44 AM | And if I may quote sidheanwwyn, from another thread.
there are actually people who do the right thing BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING, not because they live in fear of some after-death retribution, or hope for some after-death reward. it is possible to be conscientious without the thought of your imaginary friend looking over your shoulder.
The Idea that We are "Special" is spwaned by the fear of our own mortality and a need to see ourselves as more then we are. We get pumped up by putting others down. If we don't, soon, stop this elitist thinking, that we are above all else, we will destory the system (Nature) that supports us. We are not better then the rest of nature, we are part of it and dependant on it. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 10:40:41 AM |
Here's the debate:
Are humans truly 'special'? (IE: Seperate from other lifeforms)
Or does our being special merely stem from our own Pride?
You know, when i first started to study Christianity I did it to have a way to fight those who were preaching falsely according to me. Indeed in prideful and error strewn sermons of intolerance and arrogant presumptions i saw many traditional churchian teachings making lite of the real value of Life and Freedom. To me there could be no truth in one man saying another was going to hell because they didn't believe the way they did.
Then upon closer observation I noticed that anyone who adopts a belief system of anykind and become dogmatic about it essetially starts to preach in such a way as to gather others who feel as they do and begin to be special, prideful, preachy and exclusive. They now know the truth and with that truth they want to go out and let others see it. Here we go again....
Listen, I'm more special than you are... I know the truth better than you... I am neither prideful nor humble i'm just right! (I'm being absurd on purpose.)
So all that to say of course we are special! We are made in the image and likeness of I AM THAT I AM. However, is it possible that if we hunt Hump backed whales to extinction than an alien inteligence is going to send a probe looking for them 300 years from now that may inadvertently destroy the earth? (i'm referencing Star Trek IV "The Voyage Home.") I don't know. But I do think it is intriuging that we think enough of life to try to prevent hunting a species to extinction. And yes, i think many things make us special... but seperate? Seperate in what way? | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 10:55:56 AM | A very interesting question and I suspect all the religious people will definitely hop on the bandwagon and say unequivocally that we are special.
I did make a post a while back about our insignificance in the universe. I think it was lost on most of the faithful. Our significance in the overall universe is so close to zero, it is not funny. Yet apparently, we've made all sorts of dialogues and covenants with the creator.
To suggest otherwise is to acknowledge our false sense of pride and arrogance. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 11:35:12 AM | This is much to broad of a question.
In what way do you mean?
If you are talking uniqueness I say no. There are many extreamly strange and unlikely life forms out there. There are alot of life forms similar to us. I worked with monkeys for a while a year ago and the simliarities between us an them are uncanny. Whereas if you look at a creature like a platapus now that is unique. Or things like lichen part fungi part plant can survive in the most extream climates and eat rock.
As for intelligence. There is an insect called a locust that can fly so rapidly through dense grass without touching a single blade than no computer or person would be able to calculate fast enough to even come close to doing what the locust does does that mean the locust is intelligent? or just specialized? So just because we do things other creatures dont or cant does that make us special? All creatures are special in their own way I would say none more than others. To say we're resposible for the earth is bull. We are responsible for nothing. It is in our own best intrest to protect the earth that is the only reason why we should. We are like every other creature selfish and we value our lives more than the lives of anything else if we were not we would not exist. We are flawed in the same way as rats. If you put them into a limited system they will breed and eat untill they starve and die. We are no different. One could argue that we can comprehend what we are doing but it doesn't aprear that way. How do we know that rats don't understand that they are going to consume themselves to death but are powerles vs their almighty genes? We are all slaves to our genes and they are selfish. Even we in our much toted inelligence cant overcome an invisible string of molicules that is buried in our cells.
So in conclusion NO | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 12:31:57 PM | animals are better people than we are...
Sid, to borrow from your other quote, do animals "do what is right just because it is the right thing to do?" In any case, the implications of your statement are severe. Should we stop controlling the insect population and let insects overwhelm our population? If someone developed a huge weapon that would only kill humans and nothing else, would you be the first to trigger it? If a bear was attacking a friend of yours, would you tell the ranger, "Don't shoot the bear! In my opinion, it is the 'better' creature"?
Actually, Sid, you usually make sense, so I don't believe you mean what you said above. I think you're merely trying to be... shocking!
I did make a post a while back about our insignificance in the universe. I think it was lost on most of the faithful. Our significance in the overall universe is so close to zero, it is not funny.
If you measure signifigance by size and displacement, you are very right. Maybe the "faithful" (and the vast majority of humanity) don't go by the same measure as you are putting forth. Imagine if we all internalized the concept of our signifigance being practically zero. Death would be insignifigant. Hence, war, holocaust, natural disaster, pandemics, famines, serial killings, and funerals would be insignifigant.
Is that the concept you want people to latch onto? Is it really "arrogant" to feel otherwise? If so, then we're arrogant. And it's a good thing... | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 12:54:44 PM | if we all internalized the concept of our signifigance being practically zero. Death would be insignifigant.
I would say it is the other way around.
Those you believe they are "Better" (i.e. Internal Life) have less respect for life as they see death as passing on to "Better" things. (Kill em all and let God sort it out!)
Whereas, Those who believe that death is death, such as I, try to think twice before destroying it forever. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 12:55:01 PM | | I'd say we're "special" in that we're the most intelligent form of life on this planet. And I don't see us as "separate" from any other life form, but just one that's evolved to a greater extent. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 1:01:20 PM | Fly
The faithful go by an alleged contract and dialogue between God and man so many years ago (when man was more superstitious and less privy to knowledge of how large the universe is).
Why should we blow up our significance even with the sheer numbers of death, calamity natural disasters, pandemics, famines, serial killings and ....funerals. I am not merely just measuring by size and displacement. I am arguing on the basis of life on other planets throught this vast gigantic universe. Scientists say that there are more people alive now than there are dead people but suppose we use the figure of 12 billion people to ever have lived in this world. Statistically speaking with the size of the universe as it is, there is a conservative estimate that life could exist on another 40 milion planets. If you average each planet to have 1 billion inhabitants each, that would pretty much make us insignificant.
The bottom line is that I am not arguing on size or displacement but by the potential life out there. Generally speaking we are far too egocentric for our own good because like all things with religion, when we don't know, we assume. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 1:34:39 PM | Trewq, if you want to envision theists (I assume) as having the same motto as an army assault team, that is your perogative. It's just that your claim carries no weight with me.
The bottom line is that I am not arguing on size or displacement but by the potential life out there.
I'm still not convinced otherwise. Your still claiming that the displacement of the human race pales in comparison to the potential displacement of life on other planets. Insects outnumber us greatly, too. So by that reasoning, we are insignifigant compared to insects. The question then is, so what?
In any case, I don't see what the point of the egocentrism label is. We encounter obstacles to our survival, living or nonliving, and we at least attempt to overcome them. What else is there to do, in the big picture?
On a side note, I did hear a minister on the radio once, who said that he disbelieved in alien life because he didn't believe that God would "cheat on his bride." Now THAT is egocentrism! Personally, I don't think most theists spend much time thinking about aliens. They don't have any effect on our planet or existence... that we know of.  | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 2:32:56 PM | Fly
I see your point. However, considering we are but a fraction of the species that live on this earth, we still see God's creation as some exchange between ourselves and Him like we are the only two parties. That would seem a tad bit "we are the centre of the universe" for me. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/4/2006 6:23:22 PM |
That would seem a tad bit "we are the centre of the universe" for me
(let me troll a bit here...)
Robert, you are the center of the universe. The spark of your being and the essence of your thoughts make you so. But creation itself and all living organisms speak to another central essence whose motives are manfest most completely in us who are children of God. Even without the fall of man into the knowledge of good and evil earth would have presented a challenge to Gods children. However, open talkative fellowship with God would have made subdueing the earth a much easier task... this is what the legend of Atlantis teaches us. I think we all chose this route in creation since we all have a common purpose... Relationship with our common Creator, eachother and the other contents of the universe.
IOW our mission goal meaning for living is in an ultimate spontaneous fellowship with our common creator where every Quickened Being shares impromptu fellowships and adventures that are not predestined and not aforeknown even by our common Creator. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/5/2006 10:17:32 AM | | We humans are unique in that we are highly intelligent(compared to all other species, yes even the cetaceans of the sea ) and now we can control our environment as oppose to the other way around. Of course intelligence breeds ambition and well, take a look around at whats happening today. The bottom line is natural selection is indifferent to all life forms, including humanity ( ie global pandemics). Even cultural evolution has led us to the brink of nuclear annihilation. Of course the story of man continues to unfold, who knows what the next chapter will bring... | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/5/2006 10:44:06 AM |
Sid, to borrow from your other quote, do animals "do what is right just because it is the right thing to do?" In any case, the implications of your statement are severe. Should we stop controlling the insect population and let insects overwhelm our population? If someone developed a huge weapon that would only kill humans and nothing else, would you be the first to trigger it? If a bear was attacking a friend of yours, would you tell the ranger, "Don't shoot the bear! In my opinion, it is the 'better' creature"?
animals lack malice. that is a human quality. the laws of nature rule them for the most part, but there have been many instances where animals have shown that they have a sense of altruism. like a dolphin who saves a swimmer in trouble. they also have a sense of humor, and this has long been considered to be a sign of intelligence. a bear who attacks your friend isn't doing so from malice, but rather because it perceives a threat - usually rightly so. how many humans have killed bears because its "fun"? i don't think we are an asset to this planet, and it would probably be much better off without us. your question about a human killing weapon is a dumb one, though. enlightened self-interest.
a few people have said that our intelligence makes us special. how do you figure that? for one thing, i don't think we are necessarily the smartest life form on this rock, and even if we were, why would that make us special? the implication behind that statement is that, if intelligence makes you special, then the smarter you are the more special you are. does that mean that retarded people aren't as special or important as the rest of the herd? if we are so damn smart, you'd think we would have done a better job with using our brains. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/5/2006 10:54:58 AM |
animals are better people than we are...
lol thats not the first time I heard that lol..I mean some say as opposed to Evolution happening, there is Devolution going on instead, because animals don't act in many ways as people do. They don't gossip or swear at eachother, or do other crimes like us humans do, they only do what comes intsinctly to them.
So there is SOME truth to that it seems in some instances. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/5/2006 11:25:52 AM |
Are humans truly 'special'? (IE: Seperate from other lifeforms)
Yes of course we are special. All life forms are separate and unique. Why would you ponder that Question?
Our closest living relatives the chimp, so they say, is vastly different from us in perhaps as many ways as we are similar. Even from person to person we find people agreeing about just how different they are despite the vast amount of similarities we all have in common.
Or does our being special merely stem from our own Pride?
Perhaps for some but the fact remains, for me at least, that pride or no pride we clearly are vastly different if we focus on our differences, just like most all creatures are from one another. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/5/2006 12:02:36 PM | OK, OK, you weren't just trying to be shocking, Sid. But now I find myself shocked, ironically enough!
animals lack malice. that is a human quality. the laws of nature rule them for the most part, but there have been many instances where animals have shown that they have a sense of altruism. like a dolphin who saves a swimmer in trouble.
If dolphins knew we strapped mines to them to destroy enemy shipping, they might think twice about doing that. I kid, I kid...
Anyhoo, you're saying that animals are capable of altruism, but not malice. How's that? I would argue that a creature that is capable of one is capable of the other. Maybe you haven't gotten on a dolphins bad side yet...
a bear who attacks your friend isn't doing so from malice, but rather because it perceives a threat - usually rightly so.
Probably true, except for the "rightly so" part. That is an error in the bear's perception in the scenario I envisioned. I'm assuming your friends aren't "malicious" towards bears. BUT, the issue remains: it's a life and death situation, and you truly believe the bear is the "better" lifeform. For me, it would be a necessary evil to harm the bear, but the decision would be very easy to make. But in your case, I'm thinking that you would backpedal from your stance on animals being "better people."
i don't think we are an asset to this planet, and it would probably be much better off without us. your question about a human killing weapon is a dumb one, though.
Since you truly believe that, I don't see how my question is dumb. I think it's right on target. It's just that it forces you to accept the grim reality of your world-view. It's the stuff James Bond villains are made of (the ones with the off-beat sense of justice).
I think humans are unique in that we are able to override our survival instinct. If we came to believe that the planet was truly better without us, we could find a way to render ourselves extinct, eventually. Wouldn't that be the altruistic thing to do?
Of course, I disagree. I don't see animals trying to preserve endangered species. And yes, species have become extinct without human intervention. I don't see animals fighting forest fires, and I don't see animals helping a beached or lost whale find his way again. We're far from perfect, but I don't see animals as "better." But I am the typical, egocentric human.
I don't know where you get the frame of reference to think that this world would be better without humans, but the bigger issue is that you lack the courage of your convictions on the matter, which is a good thing for the human race. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/6/2006 12:02:56 AM | I agree with someone above that this question leaves a wide berth for more questions than answers.
If we are answering this according to our evolvement from evolution, consider what would happen to this world if a mass extinction happened to the human element. I think this world would continue as if we had never been here. Thus we would no more be special then any other living thing on this earth. Having special qualities is a different discussion. But special as a whole, nothing is.
Almost everything on this earth is in a food chain for something else. We are the only things to my knowledge that don't have to worry about a larger or smaller species coming after us with the purpose to kill us to eat us on a daily basis. We are outside the normal food chains where in one species is always after another species for survival.
I do agree we are seperate of this planet as nothing spectacular would happen if the human race died away. Well except the diet of flesh eaters would change for a while, interrupting their normal eating habits till the dead human bodies mostly rotted away after being eaten.
We are the one species on this earth that uses so many of the other species to help us survive and live. If we stoped existing, they would continue to live. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/6/2006 12:57:58 PM | flyguy - i don't think you got what i said. assuming that a creature that is capable of altruism is also capable of malice is just that - an assumption. you offer nothing to corroborate that statement. i believe that animals are capable of hate, but that is not the same thing. only someone who is completely ignorant or soulless would say that they are not capable of love.
the "rightly so" part of the statement i made is very true. we are the top predators on the planet, and animals rightly fear us. i guess you are expecting a bear to strike up a conversation, then decide you are one of the "nice" humans before reacting... another stupid statement is that apparently you think that i would not defend myself because i think a bear is better than me. one does not follow the other. i would certainly defend myself and anyone i cared for. would i feel really sorry for the hunter who got attacked by a wild animal? no. that's karma in action.
i stand by what i said about the human killing weapon is dumb. there are other solutions, and your attempts to discredit what i said by making a ludicrous statement do not change the fact that humans are the number one threat to this world and everything on it. you go on about how warm and fuzzy we are because we try to preserve species. extinction is part of the natural process, as nature weeds out the non-viable species, but we interfere with that process. if too many species are on the brink of extinction, isn't it usually because of our interference? | |
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Xavi
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Joined: 1/6/2006
Msg: 23 | |
| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/7/2006 12:31:08 AM | Oh yeah, we humans are SO special. We make more of a negative impact on our world than any other species. Take most of us away from our cars, TVs, houses and air conditioning/central heating, and we cannot survive. (For an example, check out the number of people who can't make it on "survivor," where they are provided with food & water.)
Animals don't need superhighways, cars or the internet to travel the world and make global contacts. I can't think of any situation where all the animals from one country go off and attack all the animals from another.
Elephants will adopt a baby elephant if its mother is killed and will protect it. Dolphins (in response to another post here) swam gleefully around with the dummy mines on their backs and placed them where the humans wanted, but once the real explosives were put in place the dolphins refused to do what they had done with the mock weapons.
We humans have convinced ourselves that we are superior, when in fact we are probably one of the most helpless mammals around. We have no claws, no horns, no fangs; our teeth are barely useful as weapons, we have no fur to keep us warm if it gets cold and we insist on going out to steal from each other and kill each other for no reason other than we want what someone else has.
We're special, sure, but not necessarily in a good way. | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/7/2006 7:12:43 PM | Alaska, that was an objectively stated post. Well said.
Xavi, I didn't know that about the dolphin-mine thing. I just heard what I did in passing from a military person. I may have to look into that more now. I think Flipper (RIP) would have approved.
Sid, you're right. I don't get what you're saying. That's why I'm asking you questions about it. Like I said earlier, your opinions usually make sense (albeit with a touch of venom added in from time to time). In this case, I don't understand your criteria for other creatures being better than humans, and I don't think you have examined the "bigger picture" implications of your opinion.
OK, evidence backing my altruism/malice statement: dogs have been known to save their master's lives, sometimes with risk to their own, and dogs have been known to maul/kill small children. That was just off the top of my head-- no research required!
only someone who is completely ignorant or soulless would say that they are not capable of love.
Alrighty then! That one came straight outta nowhere!
another stupid statement is that apparently you think that i would not defend myself because i think a bear is better than me. one does not follow the other.
There's that venom again! You seemed to have understood the opposite of what I was saying. I'll make myself more clear: I was implying that I think you would let the bear be harmed to save your friend, but that this decision would be in direct contradiction to your opinion that we're discussing. If you don't see that, then this discussion is DOA.
As for the human extermination scenario, you say "dumb," I say your sidestepping the implications of your worldview. You said that the world would be better off without humans. What better "solution" is there but to remove humans from the earth? OK, extermination isn't the only way... we could wait until we have the technology to leave the Earth and colonize other planets, allowing this one to flourish... | |
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| Human. Special, or just another lifeform?
Posted: 5/7/2006 9:03:08 PM | I'm noticing some of the reasons people feel we are somehow removed from the other beasts of the earth such as:
1. Our ability to invent (mental) and
2. Our ability to construct (physical).
Let us not forget that our mental accomplishments stem from a perceived need. We feel like we 'need' bigger, prettier houses. So do birds. Birds determine a mate based on how well-constructed and attractive the nest is. We make the assumtion that the bird's desire to impress a date is different than ours.
But brick and mortor? This brings us to point #2.
We ASSUME that animials and insects, (other life on the planet), do not have the mental capacity to build and invent as we do. In this, let us not forget physical ability. Dolphins and birds do not build brick and mortor houses because they physically cannot. This in no way, shape, or form proves any lack in mental capacity. It just means that fish and birds don't have hands, and gorillas are perfectly happy hanging out in trees.
I say that humans are no more or less "evolved" than any other creature. Nor are we "special". Each creature we've discovered has adapted based on its need and physical ability... in this, we are EXACTLY alike. Our physical form affords us the abilty to do more, and therefore we do.
Some have argued that we have a written language... well, even if they thought it a necessity, how the hell is a fish going to develop that? Or a Giraffe, or a bird, or a wolf?
We cannot make the assumption that creatures are "less" than us based on what they cannot physically accomplish... otherwise, every human born a cripple would fall into that same category.
Back to the mental side of the house. How do we know that animals to not consider their mortality? Or their very existence? Because they cannot communicate with us? The fact that we cannot understand what they say is no different the other way around. What's interesting is that animals CAN learn to understand us... yet we see it as a failing that they lack the proper vocal cords to speak English. Some would argue that animals don't truly understand us... they merely react to certain sounds or visual "cues". I argue: What the hell do you think you're doing every day? You grasp Sign Language no different than any animal would... if I point to a glass, you'll learn to drink from it. If I point to a hoop, you'll learn to jump through. And spoken language for humans is just as we describe it for animals: You learn to react to what is said to you based on the forming of words, the tone of the words, ect. How is that any different than a dog learning to sit down when you say, "Sit"?
Oh, one more thing. The point about Malice.
While some animals kill their weak, others go out of their way to protect (feed, shelter) them. And it's not always same-species. I remember watching a video on animal planet that showed an alligator attacking a deer (?), when suddenly a hippo came running over and attacked the alligator. When the alligator fled, the hippo drug the deer back to land and stood gaurd over it.
A great many humans are well without this level of caring. | |
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