| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/4/2006 8:44:34 PM | source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4973734.stm
And across the board, Palestinians are appalled by what Mr Olmert calls his "convergence" plan. It involves Israel ceding some ground, but consolidating its hold on occupied East Jerusalem and the land behind the wall and fence barrier that it is building in the West Bank. The great majority of settlers would remain on occupied territory. Mr Olmert has also talked of Israel keeping the strategically important Jordan Valley.
Palestinians would find themselves stripped of some of their best land and water resources. They would be confined to central areas of the West Bank between Israeli-controlled zones. Mr Giacaman said this would be a disaster: "Another Palestinian catastrophe - another partition of what is left of Palestine."
It is not just the political classes who talk this way. "The plan means taking Palestinian land and dividing it," said Mohammad Shaaban, a shopkeeper on Gaza City's al-Wahde Street. "We will resist."
In another news.. "The continuation of scattered settlements throughout the West Bank creates an inseparable mix of populations that will threaten the existence of the state of Israel as a Jewish state," Olmert said. "The borders of Israel that will be formed in the coming years will be significantly different from the territories that the state of Israel holds today."
I see an irony or dilemma Israel government facing. It seems trying to grab more land and further dividing up of palestinian territory could end up increasing palestinian population within the borders of Israel. Because Palestinian birth rates are higher than Israeli ones. There is a fear that one day Palestinians may outnumber Israelis in Israel. In fact, from a statistical point of view, it will.
Now that'd be poetic justice. But hopefully both Israelis and Palestinians all will be civilized enough to coexist then.
-Solak | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/4/2006 9:38:52 PM | "There is a fear that one day Palestinians may outnumber Israelis in Israel. In fact, from a statistical point of view, it will."
In fact, the 'Palestinians', (Arabic people) and all their allies have outnumbered The Israelis since 1948. I am not Jewish, and not very pro Jewish. However, , if my 'neighbours' declared to the whole world, that they were going drive me, and my family, into the sea..There would be a lot more dead than there are now. I praise Israel for the restraint they have shown so far. | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 3 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/5/2006 6:52:33 AM | | ^^^ don't praise them too hard. They would be glad to exterminate all Palestinians ... if it weren't for the international reaction and most likely a global nuclear war. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/5/2006 8:00:33 AM | | i've never heard isreal declare that they would exterminate anyone, but i've heard this b.s from palastinians and other muslims plenty of times. mostly recently this crap has been spewing from the president of iran. | |
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ousu
| Joined: 6/2/2005 Msg: 5 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/5/2006 8:26:41 AM |
i've never heard isreal declare that they would exterminate anyone
Israel just acts, not just talks. I am not surprised someone in the US has not heard that much about Israel's actions - it has been seen for a long time the US is covering Israel, no matter how brutal its actions are. Even the voices of Israeli people who are against the violence and unfairness practised by their own goverment are not heard in media. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/5/2006 8:24:29 PM | | The US media has completely failed in their duty to report on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They cover for Israel all the time. When a Palestinian kills some Israelis it's called terrorism. When the Israeli army kills a bunch of Palestinians it's called retaliation. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 8:14:34 AM | | when isreal attacks palestinian targets its always in response to some a-hole suicide bomber/murderer who has gone out and purposely targeted civilians in ice cream parlors. these murderers are condoned and encouraged by the palestinian authorities, whenever a bomber suceeds his parents are quoted in the news as being happy and proud. are israelies better and more efficiant at killing palestinians? you bet they are, thats how they ended up in the gaza strip, because the hostile muslim countries figured they had them out numbered and surrounded and could take them out... looks like they were wrong. | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 8 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 8:33:15 AM | ^^^ That A-hole died for the freedom of his people. I am not sure if you have the stones to do the same if the situation was the same.
So ... what do you suggest? Since one side has Nukes, Tanks, planes and helicopter gun boats and the other has rocks. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 9:52:07 AM | | The US media has completely failed every where! It’s the propagation of false information that is at the root of not being able to solve this and other any international disputes except by means of force. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 10:01:48 AM |
That A-hole died for the freedom of his people. I am not sure if you have the stones to do the same if the situation was the same.
he is waiting in sunny california that some cuban a-hole blows himself around castro to liberate his beloved cuba so that he can go back and own half of it. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 8:41:23 PM | arri: your absolutely right, i would never for any reason strap on a few pounds of explosives, walk into a mall, pizza or ice cream parlor and blow myself up along with civilian men, women and CHILDREN. if these "brave" a-holes want to try and win against israel i suggest they try targeting military installaions, military road blocks that sort of thing. "the way to win a war is to make the other **stard die for his country", george s. patton.
well the other side doesn't just have rocks, they obviously have acsses to explosives, machine guns and grenades, besides if you were a soldier and someone started trowing rocks/bottles at you would you just stand there... i doubt it. so what do i suggest.....hmmm i don't know... i seem to remember a few years back when isreal was willing to give arafat that "great peace loving leader" almost everything he wanted (i believe the sticking point was that isreal wouldn't give up control of jeruselum) and he (arafat) walked away from a peace treaty. if anything, the palestinians should be glad that isreal has shown restraint and hasn't completly taken over the entire gaza strip, they have the military might to do it. remember isreal took control of palestinian territory after the muslims got their asses kicked in a war they started . | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 9:28:38 PM | @ Arri,
Perhaps if the guys with rocks would stop throwing rocks at the guys with tanks they could sit down and try and work this thing out via communication...
But nope, from day one they have said violence is the answer... they have no idea what the work "comprimise" means... nor are they with the times... Ironic though, their mentality is still in the stone age and they are throwing rocks at tanks... makes you wonder...
I for one do not condone war, but I do not feel sorry for the Palestians either... until Hamas and the other factions get educated, crawl out from the rocks they have been living and realize that this world has changed, that many borders all over the world, including theirs have changed, that peole have been displaced all over the world as well yet they learn to co-exist...
These people have blinders on and they are the sole reason they are in the position they are...
You cannot fault someone from protecting themselves... how many times are you going to let someone punch you in the face before you do something about it? | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 13 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 9:36:39 PM | I guess what is not publicly known up here is how Israel plays its own kind of double dealing.
First they give some land away .. then persuade the new european immigrants to settle in the lands that were given away .. essentially to promote a conflict .. then they sent the army in .. take the land back and blame it all on the Palestinians.
I can't understand the support of the United States. There is nothing in it for the United States and Palestinian situation has to be resolved. They are ready and willing to work something out. They know that they have to co-exist, but Israel is not willing ... and the damn thing keeps dragging on and on and on ...  | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 9:43:20 PM | @ Arri...
Are you kidding me, do you know how much Jewish money runs threw the USA... they have no choice but to accept it and side with them... | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 15 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 9:48:02 PM | the Jewish money might be lining the pockets of the politicians ... but it is the American tax payers money that runs through Israel ... and at what cost?
9/11 was a direct result of failed and stupid foreign policy in the middle east.
This situation would have been solved years ago because all Israel had to do was to honor their deals and the United States (that has the economic might) to push Israel into playing ball and living up to their agreements. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/9/2006 10:13:05 PM | Basically, you know how ideologically USA or the west is much different than Middle East? They hate the west, at least the majority dislikes USA.
So for US to have Isreal in the middle of Hell or should I say hostile groups of populations Arabs, Iranians is a good thing. Because Arabs and Iranians has to deal with Isreal first before attacking USA.
So Isreal is like a buffer zone for US. Imagine if Isreal wasn't there then all the groups opposed to USA could have focused on NYC, blowing stuff up. Strategically, US support of Isreal makes sense. You can forget about morality though. Morality is a luxury one can't afford if your life is on the line.
Now I don't like what Isreal doing to Palestinians neither. I for one am for humanity than nationality. But unfortunately the World we live in is anything but ideal.
May be in a distant future, we'll evolve into understanding one another. I'm pretty sure I won't see that in my lifetime. But I think we'll reach that golden age of civilization at some point. Until then, just get ready to see some more killings, murders and wars.
-Solak | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 7:13:24 AM | Israeli fuel firm halts Palestinian gas supply http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12718406/ | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 18 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 7:17:49 AM |
So for US to have Isreal in the middle of Hell or should I say hostile groups of populations Arabs, Iranians is a good thing. Because Arabs and Iranians has to deal with Isreal first before attacking USA.
This is funny ... What do you mean? Israel is going to shoot down Arab and Iranian long range bombers before they can make it all the way across the Atlantic Ocean.
Al Qaeda hit the World Trade Centre because they wanted to stir up shit and set the east and west against each other. Anyone with an IQ that approaches double digit can see that. However, as it appears, they have succeeded.
I remember the days following 9/11. United States had the sympathy of the world including all the Middle Eastern Nations. There was a real opportunity to make something good out of the tragedy, yet the current administration decided to use it to create a fascist state, wire tap everyone, limit freedoms, give anal probe to Americans of Middle Eastern Background, start a horrible and useless war in Iraq and apparently now, seriously thinking about using nukes against Iran. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 12:31:23 PM |
This is funny ... What do you mean? Israel is going to shoot down Arab and Iranian long range bombers before they can make it all the way across the Atlantic Ocean.
Perhalps, you missed my point.
Al Qaeda hit the World Trade Centre because they wanted to stir up shit and set the east and west against each other. Anyone with an IQ that approaches double digit can see that. However, as it appears, they have succeeded.
I guess you are the only real genius around here. lol
I remember the days following 9/11. United States had the sympathy of the world including all the Middle Eastern Nations.
I guess street celebrations praising Al Qaeda in Palestine and Iran don't count?
There was a real opportunity to make something good out of the tragedy Which was what??
So your point of view: US is to blame and Iran is a lovely country.
-Solak | |
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arri
| Joined: 10/5/2005 Msg: 20 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 1:15:48 PM | I guess street celebrations praising Al Qaeda in Palestine and Iran don't count?
What I remember was a candle light walk in Tehran to honor the victims of 9/11 and Iran's unsolicited co-operation, using it's influence with the northern alliance in Afghanistan to provide US with local assets and a place to stage an offensive against the Taliban.
As a matter of fact, the only reason there was an opposition to the Taliban in Afghanistan was Iran that supported the insurgency ... I also remember the Iranian diplomatic mission to Afghanistan that were murdered in 1998 and Iran's intention to invade Afghanistan to end the Taliban in 1998. To the best of my knowledge, Iran backed down at the urging of the Clinton Administration.
Here is an irony for you. If the United States had supported Iran in 1998, most likely, there wouldn't have been an attack in 2001.
You should do a little more research before posting .. instead of just posting rubbish. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 4:27:13 PM | if my 'neighbours' declared to the whole world, that they were going drive me, and my family, into the sea..
I would know that actions speak louder than words; and assure myself..and them..that this will not be happening. (Then I would let them do their own thing..while I do mine)
On a sort of related note:
International peacemakers have agreed on a plan to channel humanitarian aid directly to the Palestinian people -- bypassing the Hamas-led Palestinian Authority (PA). surprise statement by Mideast mediators on Tuesday did not say precisely how much or what kind of aid they would provide, but it did agree that withholding funding was harming the Palestinian people. Hamas welcomed the plan, but criticized moves to sideline the PA.
The U.S. and EU have withheld aid from the Palestinians for several months as part of an effort to pressure the new Hamas-led government toward a more accommodating stance with Israel. Israel has also refused to transfer $55 million in monthly tax revenues it collects for the Palestinian Authority. And in a separate development Wednesday, the Israeli company that provides fuel to the Palestinians said it was cutting off supplies because of mounting debts. Mujahed Salameh, director general of the Palestinian Petroleum Agency, said petrol and cooking gas would run out within 24 hours. "There will be an economic catastrophe," Salameh was quoted as saying by Reuters. "Many factories, bakeries and transport will stop working."
Mediators
The so-called Quartet of Mideast mediators -- the U.S., EU, Russia and the UN, met in New York Tuesday and later announced a "temporary mechanism" would be set up to bypass the Hamas-led Palestinian government so money could be channelled directly to the Palestinian people. Representatives from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan also met the main mediators on Tuesday. They warned the Quartet that failure to resume aid could eventually lead to civil war between the different Palestinian factions, Reuters news agency reported. "The Quartet expressed serious concern about deteriorating conditions in the West Bank and Gaza," UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Tuesday.
Bloc Quebecois MP Francine Lalonde asked the minority Conservative government on Wednesday whether they would respect the Quartet's so-called "temporary mechanism." "There has to be some temporary international mechanism, which would allow for aid to be given to the Palestinian people. Would the minister agree that this should be done?" Lalonde asked during question period on Wednesday. Peter Van Loan, the parliamentary secretary to Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay told the House of Commons that the government was mulling the Quartet's announcement."We will be examining whether that represents an option for us," Van Loan responded.
The latest agreement represents a slight softening of the hard U.S. line against financial engagement with Hamas -- the militant Islamic group that has conducted numerous terrorist attacks. The United States, the European Union and Israel list Hamas as a terrorist organization. Speaking Wednesday in Ramallah on the West Bank, Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh slammed the United States and its Western allies for demands on his government, but did not reject the temporary program."The Quartet brings from time to time conditions to force the government to concede the rights and recognize the legality of the occupation," Ismail Haniyeh said. "I believe the government will remain faithful to the Palestinian rights and will keep seeking the equation that protects the Palestinian people.
Broke
Overseas donations, mostly from Europe, have long sustained the cash-strapped and bloated Palestinian government. Hamas won the elections in part because of a record of providing services that the previous secular Fatah leadership did not. However, the months of aid cutoff has left the Palestinian government virtually broke and increasingly unable to provide basic services. Some 165,000 government workers, whose incomes had supported one-third of Palestinian families, have not been paid for the past two months, and the World Bank warned this week of an impending crisis.
Frustrations rose to the surface over the weekend, when hundreds of Palestinians staged strikes and demonstrations in the West Bank and Gaza to demand payment. European governments in particular have been alarmed at the worsening plight for unemployed Palestinians and concerned that charities and UN agencies could not meet the demand for services or handle the amount of money that might be needed. They pressed the U.S. to agree to the new humanitarian fund, even though that kind of assistance may be an indirect benefit to Hamas. The U.S. agreed on condition the fund be temporary and limited to programs that meet basic needs, a senior State Department official said. "It would be against our values to let people starve," said Marc Otte, the EU's special envoy for the Mideast.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said the European Union would take the lead in setting up the new fund. The U.S. also said it would separately give $10M US in aid to the Palestinians through medical and children's charities.
Israel has also refused to transfer $55 million in monthly tax revenues it collects for the Palestinian Authority.
If I am not mistaken; this is Palestinian money collected from them, the Palestinians, which is not being given back to them in services; which Israel is refusing to put back in their economy and society.
Nice score.
And in a separate development Wednesday, the Israeli company that provides fuel to the Palestinians said it was cutting off supplies because of mounting debts
See the above quote about the 55 million being withheld.
Good hardball to subverse them. Steal their money..then cut em off because they have no money...nice one. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 5:40:08 PM | arri: what you remember is a candle light walk in iran? what i remember is palestinians and other muslims jumping up and down, shooting off AK47s in the air (i'm sure the falling bullets those genius's shot fell and killed some of their own) singing and dancing in the street.
hmmm.... i wonder why we wouldn't want to support iran overthrowing anyone and expanding their power.... i seem to remember something that happened a while back, when president jimmy was in office, but i just can't put my finger on it. | |
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rks58
| Joined: 1/28/2006 Msg: 23 | |
| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 5:51:32 PM | @qbnpete
Arri was referencing Iran's response not the Palestinians.
I will regurgitate something I posted in another thread here for you
Iran has a long standing Jewish minority, some of whom trace their ancestry in Iran back over 1,000 yrs. The Jewish population of Iran enjoys legal protections and even have reserved seats in the Iranian Parliament.
Iran has no real greivance against the Jewish population in the middle east aside from Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Their current 'war of words' is more for the consumption of the U.S. gov't than a threat to Iran (go to the "...wipe Israel off the map" thread for some clarification) | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 7:52:54 PM | rks: your right, after your last post i suddenly remembered working with a girl years ago who was jewish and iranian. i also remember her laughing at me because i was so suprised to here that there was such a thing as iranian jews.
as far as iran/isreal go they'd get a lot more moral support from me if they stopped the destroy isreal B.S. it seems to me that the iranian gov should make more of an effort to get hamas and other pro-palestine groups to stop these suicide bombers. as long as these murderers are encouraged by hamas and others there will be no peace in the middle east. | |
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| Israeli Occupation? Posted: 5/10/2006 8:43:24 PM | @OP
Earlier this year, I saw a movie titled 'Occupation 101' at a film festival, and even got a chance to talk to the two people who put it together. The movie is about the Israeli occupation - it gives a history and timeline of the shaping events, and draws parallels with South Africa during apartheid rule and with the British/Irish conflict. So far, the movie has only had showings at movie festivals; they're still working out their distribution options. The film-makers had help (but not direction) from Israeli human rights activists, and it was very informative. Best documentary that I've seen in a long time.
In the after-the-film discussion, the film-makers highly encouraged the audience to research the topic on their own, and consider where each side was coming from. Their website is not complete, yet, but can be found by Googling the film title. | |
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